Poll on Christmas Bomber

[azezzo]

Wow, I expected the usual from the usual. But I was coming along the lines of, here in America, if you commit a felony, you lose certain rights.

Which I absolutely agree with. Yet, he has not yet been convicted of having committed a felony. I know it may sound like splitting hairs, but it IS an important distinction.

not trying to pick a fight woody,but are you kidding me?
1) we are at war
2) he's not misunderstood, he tried to blow up that plane
3) He is a terrorist

do you think that the al qaeda or the taliban treat our civilians or soldiers with the same courtesy, you being ex military, should not be so liberal. we need to take the gloves off, we need to end this bullshit, load him up with truth serum, water board him, do what ever it takes

[2dimes]

Wow, I expected the usual from the usual. But I was coming along the lines of, here in America, if you commit a felony, you lose certain rights.

Which I absolutely agree with. Yet, he has not yet been convicted of having committed a felony. I know it may sound like splitting hairs, but it IS an important distinction.

not trying to pick a fight woody,but are you kidding me?
1) we are at war
2) he's not misunderstood, he tried to blow up that plane
3) He is a terrorist

do you think that the al qaeda or the taliban treat our civilians or soldiers with the same courtesy, you being ex military, should not be so liberal. we need to take the gloves off, we need to end this bullshit, load him up with truth serum, water board him, do what ever it takes

I have to side with Woodruff here. I'll pull the "Two wrongs do not make a right" defense. Are you part of the Talaban scotty? How about you azezzo? Did you seriously just use "do you think that the alquada..." to suggest the U.S and A should sink to that level and water board a guy? Either give your head a shake or pack up and move to one of those fine places if you want to get in on their crap.

Trust me, I absolutely agree we should man up in Afganistan and kick some terrorist ass, but to sink to their level and resort to torture or unfair trial on North American soil or even anywhere under U.S. control? I hope you can see the wrong in that and change your mind. If dude is as guilty as the media makes him out to be a fair trial will result in an easy conviction and hopefully prevent a bogus charge or missunderstanding if he's being somehow set up. Though realistically if it is a set up he's going to go down regardless and perhaps will get treated to some sorts of physical abuse along the way.

[azezzo]

how long is a fair trial gonna take? this was an ongoing act of war, having answers yesterday and not 3 years from now will surely save lives, and dont be so naive to think that the cia and special forces take silence as an acceptable answer, he is not a u.s citizen he has no rights as such, he is a war criminal and should be treated as such, he was willing to die, why should he be afraid of a little torture?

[vodean]

Wow, I expected the usual from the usual. But I was coming along the lines of, here in America, if you commit a felony, you lose certain rights.

Which I absolutely agree with. Yet, he has not yet been convicted of having committed a felony. I know it may sound like splitting hairs, but it IS an important distinction.

not trying to pick a fight woody,but are you kidding me?
1) we are at war
2) he's not misunderstood, he tried to blow up that plane
3) He is a terrorist

do you think that the al qaeda or the taliban treat our civilians or soldiers with the same courtesy, you being ex military, should not be so liberal. we need to take the gloves off, we need to end this bullshit, load him up with truth serum, water board him, do what ever it takes

how long is a fair trial gonna take? this was an ongoing act of war, having answers yesterday and not 3 years from now will surely save lives, and dont be so naive to think that the cia and special forces take silence as an acceptable answer, he is not a u.s citizen he has no rights as such, he is a war criminal and should be treated as such, he was willing to die, why should he be afraid of a little torture?

thank-you. exactly. its this or more 9/11s

[MeDeFe]

how long is a fair trial gonna take? this was an ongoing act of war, having answers yesterday and not 3 years from now will surely save lives, and dont be so naive to think that the cia and special forces take silence as an acceptable answer, he is not a u.s citizen he has no rights as such, he is a war criminal and should be treated as such, he was willing to die, why should he be afraid of a little torture?

Thanks a lot, fuck you, too. Just don't expect to have any rights if you ever travel abroad, oooh, poor azezzo got mugged and raped? Well, he's not a citizen and doesn't have any rights so that's ok. Hey, let's put him on a trial for provoking it. The only people who should have any rights in any given country are citizens of that country, what a splendid idea.


Another point where you are talking out of your arse instead of the commonly used orifice: it was not an act of war but an attempted crime.

[jonesthecurl]

If the guy had been killed to stop him that would be ok - but the whole justice system fails if people don't get a trial after being apprehended. The fact that it should be easy to prove his guilt only makes it that much more important.

It's like (if you insist on seeing this as a war) the difference between shooting an enemy in a battle and treating them badly once captured.

[spurgistan]

Nobody has yet to draw any Richard Reid comparisons, afais. Which is odd, considering it's the exact same thing, we tried him in federal court, he is serving life without parole in federal super-max-security prison, which given that he and his associates lack superpowers, he has yet to escape from. Revenge fantasies non-withstanding, what is the difference?

[Phatscotty]

how long is a fair trial gonna take? this was an ongoing act of war, having answers yesterday and not 3 years from now will surely save lives, and dont be so naive to think that the cia and special forces take silence as an acceptable answer, he is not a u.s citizen he has no rights as such, he is a war criminal and should be treated as such, he was willing to die, why should he be afraid of a little torture?

Thanks a lot, fuck you, too. Just don't expect to have any rights if you ever travel abroad, oooh, poor azezzo got mugged and raped? Well, he's not a citizen and doesn't have any rights so that's ok. Hey, let's put him on a trial for provoking it. The only people who should have any rights in any given country are citizens of that country, what a splendid idea.


Another point where you are talking out of your arse instead of the commonly used orifice: it was not an act of war but an attempted crime.

at least you are conversating. I agree with your statement 100%. in the case of a normal crime, such as rape, murder, burglary, whatever.....I would only point out that this is different. the plane bomber needs to be put into the same sategory as a terrorist who had a nuclear device, ready to level a city. These kind of attacks, IMO, are above and beyond the normal crimes. It's just different. Perhaps my wish that he were turned over to the military is not the best idea TO YOU, but something else needs to be done. When people are planning to take innocent life on a mass scale, WE NEED INFORMATION ASAP.

[azezzo]

how long is a fair trial gonna take? this was an ongoing act of war, having answers yesterday and not 3 years from now will surely save lives, and dont be so naive to think that the cia and special forces take silence as an acceptable answer, he is not a u.s citizen he has no rights as such, he is a war criminal and should be treated as such, he was willing to die, why should he be afraid of a little torture?

Thanks a lot, fuck you, too. Just don't expect to have any rights if you ever travel abroad, oooh, poor azezzo got mugged and raped? Well, he's not a citizen and doesn't have any rights so that's ok. Hey, let's put him on a trial for provoking it. The only people who should have any rights in any given country are citizens of that country, what a splendid idea.


Another point where you are talking out of your arse instead of the commonly used orifice: it was not an act of war but an attempted crime.

i have traveled abroad, and in doing so, i make damn sure not to break the law, and to watch out for my own personal safety, and as such i fully realize that outside of the u.s. i am at that countrys mercy

how can you equate a terrorist trying to blow up a plane with a mugging, and or rape, its totally different.

attempted crime, you must either be sympathetic to al qaeda and or taliban, or your blind to whats going on.

[Phatscotty]

how long is a fair trial gonna take? this was an ongoing act of war, having answers yesterday and not 3 years from now will surely save lives, and dont be so naive to think that the cia and special forces take silence as an acceptable answer, he is not a u.s citizen he has no rights as such, he is a war criminal and should be treated as such, he was willing to die, why should he be afraid of a little torture?

Thanks a lot, fuck you, too. Just don't expect to have any rights if you ever travel abroad, oooh, poor azezzo got mugged and raped? Well, he's not a citizen and doesn't have any rights so that's ok. Hey, let's put him on a trial for provoking it. The only people who should have any rights in any given country are citizens of that country, what a splendid idea.


Another point where you are talking out of your arse instead of the commonly used orifice: it was not an act of war but an attempted crime.

i have traveled abroad, and in doing so, i make damn sure not to break the law, and to watch out for my own personal safety, and as such i fully realize that outside of the u.s. i am at that countrys mercy

how can you equate a terrorist trying to blow up a plane with a mugging, and or rape, its totally different.

attempted crime, you must either be sympathetic to al qaeda and or taliban, or your blind to whats going on.

I like where this is going, because now I we are talking about the real point here. Guaranteeing a terrorist his right to remain silent DOES NOT trump every innocent citizens right to exist. The US Government has to obligation and the duty to protect it's citizens LIVES. one is more important than the other. we can not have both ways.

[Phatscotty]

Wow, I expected the usual from the usual. But I was coming along the lines of, here in America, if you commit a felony, you lose certain rights.

Which I absolutely agree with. Yet, he has not yet been convicted of having committed a felony. I know it may sound like splitting hairs, but it IS an important distinction.

not trying to pick a fight woody,but are you kidding me?
1) we are at war
2) he's not misunderstood, he tried to blow up that plane
3) He is a terrorist

do you think that the al qaeda or the taliban treat our civilians or soldiers with the same courtesy, you being ex military, should not be so liberal. we need to take the gloves off, we need to end this bullshit, load him up with truth serum, water board him, do what ever it takes

I have to side with Woodruff here. I'll pull the "Two wrongs do not make a right" defense. Are you part of the Talaban scotty? How about you azezzo? Did you seriously just use "do you think that the alquada..." to suggest the U.S and A should sink to that level and water board a guy? Either give your head a shake or pack up and move to one of those fine places if you want to get in on their crap.

Trust me, I absolutely agree we should man up in Afganistan and kick some terrorist ass, but to sink to their level and resort to torture or unfair trial on North American soil or even anywhere under U.S. control? I hope you can see the wrong in that and change your mind. If dude is as guilty as the media makes him out to be a fair trial will result in an easy conviction and hopefully prevent a bogus charge or missunderstanding if he's being somehow set up. Though realistically if it is a set up he's going to go down regardless and perhaps will get treated to some sorts of physical abuse along the way.

Just because I am pointing out that getting information from a terrorist who is ready to blow something up and take as many innocent lives as possible, you decide I'm like the Taliban? No I am not, but I do have a fucking brain ok! Nobody has brought up torture expect you and one other guy, It is possible to interrogate someone without stepping over the lines.

[Phatscotty]

Human rights should be upheld but
it would seem to me in more recent years in the US and UK the basic human rights have been eroded. it the UK unlike the USA , the human Rights are not entreched in a codified constitution. but suprisingly the erosion of human rights has been greater in USA than the UK. to change the constitution u need a 2/3 vote in each house of the USA. this normally needs large public support as the house of congress and house of representative are both elected, therefore accountable to the people. This meant after 9/11 human rights in america started to cave in. Until very recently when obama has taken steps to re- introduce some human rights but is struggling to do it as it would be to be passed by the supreme court as it apposes a previous amendment to the constitution.
it the same in the UK examples such as the anti terror laws of 2005,2006 and 2008 were said to be unlawful by the head of the european court but as the UK still has soverignsy it refused to listen. But now with the chance of a more liberal goverment by june 2010 , the UK might start regaining some lost rights.

n fact, you live in a whole different country. What the F do you know about America? oh, right, what the TV tells you. got it. And the only thing I find trollish is a certain groups last resort to call people trolls.

and before u ask i'm studying UK and USA politics, currently working on Rights and the european union. so probally know what i'm on about some of the time.

PS: REMEMBER WW2 human Rights are there for good reasons , they should never be destroyed

you are learning about America from a professor in college?!

priceless WOW

I understand what you meant, but that needed to be poked

[Woodruff]

Wow, I expected the usual from the usual. But I was coming along the lines of, here in America, if you commit a felony, you lose certain rights.

Which I absolutely agree with. Yet, he has not yet been convicted of having committed a felony. I know it may sound like splitting hairs, but it IS an important distinction.

not trying to pick a fight woody,but are you kidding me?
1) we are at war
2) he's not misunderstood, he tried to blow up that plane
3) He is a terrorist

do you think that the al qaeda or the taliban treat our civilians or soldiers with the same courtesy, you being ex military, should not be so liberal. we need to take the gloves off, we need to end this bullshit, load him up with truth serum, water board him, do what ever it takes

We consider Al Qaeda and the Taliban to be rogue, lawless, terroristic organizations with no respect for life or liberty. Yet you want us to adopt their methods? Think about that for a moment.

If the guy had been killed to stop him that would be ok - but the whole justice system fails if people don't get a trial after being apprehended.

This is exactly correct. If an air marshall (or frankly, a stewardess as far as I'm concerned) had shot the guy in the attempt, I'd count them as heroes. But he didn't die, so we DO need to follow our own laws.

[Phatscotty]

Wow, I expected the usual from the usual. But I was coming along the lines of, here in America, if you commit a felony, you lose certain rights.

Which I absolutely agree with. Yet, he has not yet been convicted of having committed a felony. I know it may sound like splitting hairs, but it IS an important distinction.

not trying to pick a fight woody,but are you kidding me?
1) we are at war
2) he's not misunderstood, he tried to blow up that plane
3) He is a terrorist

do you think that the al qaeda or the taliban treat our civilians or soldiers with the same courtesy, you being ex military, should not be so liberal. we need to take the gloves off, we need to end this bullshit, load him up with truth serum, water board him, do what ever it takes

We consider Al Qaeda and the Taliban to be rogue, lawless, terroristic organizations with no respect for life or liberty. Yet you want us to adopt their methods? Think about that for a moment.

If the guy had been killed to stop him that would be ok - but the whole justice system fails if people don't get a trial after being apprehended.

This is exactly correct. If an air marshall (or frankly, a stewardess as far as I'm concerned) had shot the guy in the attempt, I'd count them as heroes. But he didn't die, so we DO need to follow our own laws.

yup. yup. I made this thread, and the poll points toward it, I'm with ya, but how do we get the information we need to protect everyone else's right to life?

[Woodruff]

yup. yup. I made this thread, and the poll points toward it, I'm with ya, but how do we get the information we need to protect everyone else's right to life?

Get the CIA and FBI to actually do their job effectively, for a change...that would be a nice start.

[Phatscotty]

yup. yup. I made this thread, and the poll points toward it, I'm with ya, but how do we get the information we need to protect everyone else's right to life?

Get the CIA and FBI to actually do their job effectively, for a change...that would be a nice start.

but even if they did it effectively, how do we get the info to save lives

[Woodruff]

yup. yup. I made this thread, and the poll points toward it, I'm with ya, but how do we get the information we need to protect everyone else's right to life?

Get the CIA and FBI to actually do their job effectively, for a change...that would be a nice start.

but even if they did it effectively, how do we get the info to save lives

I'm pretty sure I answered that...by the CIA and FBI doing their job effectively. Boots on the ground...infiltration...buying off people. It's what they're supposed to do.

[Phatscotty]

yup. yup. I made this thread, and the poll points toward it, I'm with ya, but how do we get the information we need to protect everyone else's right to life?

Get the CIA and FBI to actually do their job effectively, for a change...that would be a nice start.

but even if they did it effectively, how do we get the info to save lives

I'm pretty sure I answered that...by the CIA and FBI doing their job effectively. Boots on the ground...infiltration...buying off people. It's what they're supposed to do.

yes, but we are talking about a specific example. what should the CIA and the FBI do with the christmas bomber to find out; who he got the explosives from, who is their leader, what kind of other plans does he know about, who are his contacts, where are the safe-houses....etc. How do we find that out within the exoskeleton you have been providing. what can the CIA and FBI do? for the most part, most of you guys have only been saying what the CIA and the FBI can't do, or shouldn't do.

[Phatscotty]

Your poll is retarded.

You spend a lot of time in these "retarded" threads

[azezzo]

yup. yup. I made this thread, and the poll points toward it, I'm with ya, but how do we get the information we need to protect everyone else's right to life?

Get the CIA and FBI to actually do their job effectively, for a change...that would be a nice start.

but even if they did it effectively, how do we get the info to save lives

I'm pretty sure I answered that...by the CIA and FBI doing their job effectively. Boots on the ground...infiltration...buying off people. It's what they're supposed to do.

do you really think the cia doesnt torture?

[Woodruff]

yup. yup. I made this thread, and the poll points toward it, I'm with ya, but how do we get the information we need to protect everyone else's right to life?

Get the CIA and FBI to actually do their job effectively, for a change...that would be a nice start.

but even if they did it effectively, how do we get the info to save lives

I'm pretty sure I answered that...by the CIA and FBI doing their job effectively. Boots on the ground...infiltration...buying off people. It's what they're supposed to do.

yes, but we are talking about a specific example. what should the CIA and the FBI do with the christmas bomber to find out; who he got the explosives from, who is their leader, what kind of other plans does he know about, who are his contacts, where are the safe-houses....etc. How do we find that out within the exoskeleton you have been providing. what can the CIA and FBI do? for the most part, most of you guys have only been saying what the CIA and the FBI can't do, or shouldn't do.

You're missing my point...the CIA and FBI should be doing their jobs effectively BEFORE IT GETS TO THAT POINT. Once the individual is in custody, they've lost their jurisdiction. If they were doing their jobs effectively, it would have been thwarted well beforehand.

[Woodruff]

yup. yup. I made this thread, and the poll points toward it, I'm with ya, but how do we get the information we need to protect everyone else's right to life?

Get the CIA and FBI to actually do their job effectively, for a change...that would be a nice start.

but even if they did it effectively, how do we get the info to save lives

I'm pretty sure I answered that...by the CIA and FBI doing their job effectively. Boots on the ground...infiltration...buying off people. It's what they're supposed to do.

do you really think the cia doesnt torture?

Oh, I recognize that they probably do. However, if they do so, they do it illegally. I am speaking of "doing their job effectively" in reference to their LEGAL job. I certainly don't condone anything they might do which is illegal.

[Phatscotty]

I'm pretty sure I answered that...by the CIA and FBI doing their job effectively. Boots on the ground...infiltration...buying off people. It's what they're supposed to do.

yes, but we are talking about a specific example. what should the CIA and the FBI do with the christmas bomber to find out; who he got the explosives from, who is their leader, what kind of other plans does he know about, who are his contacts, where are the safe-houses....etc. How do we find that out within the exoskeleton you have been providing. what can the CIA and FBI do? for the most part, most of you guys have only been saying what the CIA and the FBI can't do, or shouldn't do.

You're missing my point...the CIA and FBI should be doing their jobs effectively BEFORE IT GETS TO THAT POINT. Once the individual is in custody, they've lost their jurisdiction. If they were doing their jobs effectively, it would have been thwarted well beforehand.

yup, we are running into the brick wall again. we must deal in reality that the CIA/FBI, nor anybody for that matter, is ever going to be 100% effective. Therefore, we have to find a way to get the information in the off chance the CIA and FBI can't prevent every single terrorist plot ever contrived. such as....the christmas bomber.

Are you saying we already missed our chance to get the intelligence to take down his network of support? It's too late now cuz we have him in our custody?

[Woodruff]

I'm pretty sure I answered that...by the CIA and FBI doing their job effectively. Boots on the ground...infiltration...buying off people. It's what they're supposed to do.

yes, but we are talking about a specific example. what should the CIA and the FBI do with the christmas bomber to find out; who he got the explosives from, who is their leader, what kind of other plans does he know about, who are his contacts, where are the safe-houses....etc. How do we find that out within the exoskeleton you have been providing. what can the CIA and FBI do? for the most part, most of you guys have only been saying what the CIA and the FBI can't do, or shouldn't do.

You're missing my point...the CIA and FBI should be doing their jobs effectively BEFORE IT GETS TO THAT POINT. Once the individual is in custody, they've lost their jurisdiction. If they were doing their jobs effectively, it would have been thwarted well beforehand.

yup, we are running into the brick wall again. we must deal in reality that the CIA/FBI, nor anybody for that matter, is ever going to be 100% effective. Therefore, we have to find a way to get the information in the off chance the CIA and FBI can't prevent every single terrorist plot ever contrived. such as....the christmas bomber.

Are you saying we already missed our chance to get the intelligence to take down his network of support? It's too late now cuz we have him in our custody?

No, it's certainly not too late to gain that information BY LEGAL MEANS.

[spurgistan]

You know, interrogations do occasionally gain information without becoming torture. Following the law is not inconsistent with talking to terrorism suspects, and, given that suspects we (Americans) capture are generally most scared about things we might do to them (like turn them over to Egypt) they are possibly even more likely to talk than ordinary criminals.

I was under the impression that Abdulmutallab talked openly with federal officials. Was I misled?