2010 Skilled Diversity [Winners: See 1st Post]

[Bigragooch]

Blitz - I apologize for the "deceitful" comment. I said it in frustration. I have no way of knowing your frame of mind when responding to my comments and it is reasonable that you didn't even notice I had left off the game numbers until you updated the score.

You and I had a discussion a few weeks ago in this thread about how the tournament was going to come down to whoever won the majority of this final set of 9 games between you guys and us. Our team was very excited to have it come down to this final series and have been taking those games very seriously. We have more team posts about strategy in those games than in almost any others we have played together. It has honestly been draining while very busy at work to pay so much attention to those 9 games. I don't think I could personally handle another best of 7 series. I will ask my teammates, but at this point, I am just too tired to fight for it anymore.

[Blitzaholic]

Blitz - I apologize for the "deceitful" comment.

I said it in frustration. I have no way of knowing your frame of mind when responding to my comments and it is reasonable that you didn't even notice I had left off the game numbers until you updated the score.

You and I had a discussion a few weeks ago in this thread about how the tournament was going to come down to whoever won the majority of this final set of 9 games between you guys and us. Our team was very excited to have it come down to this final series and have been taking those games very seriously. We have more team posts about strategy in those games than in almost any others we have played together. It has honestly been draining while very busy at work to pay so much attention to those 9 games. I don't think I could personally handle another best of 7 series. I will ask my teammates, but at this point, I am just too tired to fight for it anymore.

I agree, I do not want to argue about this anymore either, but, you can't blame me for your irresponsibility. We did have a discussion of the final set of games and whoever won the majority would be the winner, however, I expected all to keep being responsible and continue to follow all the rules. I mean when you won your 1st game in this championship series, you posted the win and the round you won in like every other game you have done throughout this entire series. I did not expect you to forget to post the rounds and half a point in one of these games. It would be unfair for me to change the rules because you forgot to in one game? I would have to go back and change them for everyone else too.

It looks like it may come down to us winning by a half point or it may end up in a tie after further looking into this. If you and your team do not want to play another 7 games and we win by a half point, that is fine, but, at least I asked you, because I do not want to have to win this way if it comes down to a half point. So, up to you guys, I am willing to extend it 7 more games. However, if this ends up in a tie with exact same score which would be absolutely insane, we will have no choice but to extend it another 7 games. We can't have a tie and 2 winners. So, either way, it looks as if we will win by a half point maybe or it could be exactly tied. I am saying, either way, we should play 7 more, one on each of those maps to clearly have a winner. This is the only fair compromise I can see. Anyways, let us know, Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays.

Blitz - I apologize for the "deceitful" comment.

p.s. I forgive you, no worries. I think you were just mad at yourself for forgetting to post it since you always did, and it is easier to blame someone else, it is human nature. Peace

[dividedbyzero]

Hi all,

I see both sides of this discussion (we're not calling it an argument from here on out). Rules are rules...but on the other side, it's a technicality.

I am open to playing another set of games if that's what it takes. To have bad blood over a tourney here isn't going to happen on my watch. This has been an exhausting tourney to say the least. I think we're all ready to have it be history.

So - let's get to meat and potatoes...

Bigragooch, what do you see as the best and most fair solution ? Is it adding that .5 point back ? (It is just 1/2 point, right ? I must confess that I got lost in the replies awhile back. My brain is full of accounting lint today and needs to be cleaned.) Or is it something else entirely ?

I think I can speak for Blitz, BW, and Neph when I say we want to see an agreeable and amicable solution to this.

[Big Whiskey]

I agree DBZ.Bigragooch what is your solution pal?

[Bigragooch]

My solution is to give us the 0.5 point back. I posted the games that we won in the spirit of the rules. I did not technically follow the exact rule of posting the number of rounds, but I was trying to follow the rules. I think the spirit of the rules should count in this situation.

[Blitzaholic]

My solution is to give us the 0.5 point back. I posted the games that we won in the spirit of the rules. I did not technically follow the exact rule of posting the number of rounds, but I was trying to follow the rules. I think the spirit of the rules should count in this situation.

but, you did not follow them. I can not grant you half more point, if I did, then to be fair, I would have to give it to all teams and players that may have forgot to post them after 72 hours. The fact is, you did post your wins and rounds every single time in the entire tourney, you missed here, therefore you do not get the half point. Let us be fair, at least I told you on the other game and did give you the 0.5 points extra for that game, just not both games, so I did give you a heads up or you would have less, I could of waited another day and had the 72 hours pass and you would of lost another 0.5 points, but, I did NOT do that. So, are we just playing this out, whoever wins, wins? or an extra 7 games, 1 per map?


again the score is 192.5 to 187.5







In fact, if chariot of Fire remembers,, last year i ran a similar tourney to this and he was in the finals, I forgot to post a win of ours and it did go past 72 hours and we won under 10 rounds, but, daryth, his clanmate came in the thread and posted now blitz, you posted you win past 72 hours, you do not get that bonus of 0.5, and you know what? I took my bonus points away. then shatners and daryth both of chariot of fire's teammates said i did the right thing. It was a technicality, but, I did subtract my 0.5 bonus points, you can ask them all. Then shatner said, you know you did the right thing there blitzy, because you know you would of taken it away from us, and he was right, so i took away our bonus points, this is the same thing. I just wish daryth, shatner, or chariot of fire would post this truth. I am treating all fair and the same for myself and others, I never have changed the rules. ask anyone. peace.

[Bigragooch]

Okay, I read through every post in this thread. At no other time did someone win a game in under 10 rounds and post that they won and forget to mention the number of rounds (except a few times when you reminded them immediately to post the number of rounds).

So, if you accept that we posted the wins in under 72 hours with the implied statement that it was less than 10 rounds, you can give us the 0.5 point and do not have to change the score for anyone else in the whole tournament. You would still be applying the rules consistently to everyone. You would just be accepting that when I was posting the wins ... in the finals ... for the games we were both playing in ... I was implying that it was less than 10 rounds (there was at least one other instance where someone didn't state the round, just stated that it was less than 10 rounds).

[Blitzaholic]

Okay, I read through every post in this thread. At no other time did someone win a game in under 10 rounds and post that they won and forget to mention the number of rounds (except a few times when you reminded them immediately to post the number of rounds).

So, if you accept that we posted the wins in under 72 hours with the implied statement that it was less than 10 rounds, you can give us the 0.5 point and do not have to change the score for anyone else in the whole tournament. You would still be applying the rules consistently to everyone. You would just be accepting that when I was posting the wins ... in the finals ... for the games we were both playing in ... I was implying that it was less than 10 rounds (there was at least one other instance where someone didn't state the round, just stated that it was less than 10 rounds).

bit, you did not apply the rounds, you never mentioned them, therefore, you can't get it. why would I take points away form my own team when this happened and not do the same here. this is a dead issue. it is 192.5 to 187.5

3 games left, we can just play them 3 out and whatever happens, happens, or I can make 7 more games. you cannot stall and wait for the other 3 games to unfold to favor your team. you need to make a choice now. either I make 7 more or the winner of these just wins. However, if it ends in a tie, i would need to make 7 more games anyways. Should I go ahead and make the 7 now and extend it? or do you want to wait and see if we do in fact tie? If we tie, then i need to make 7 more, if we win, then it is over, tourney done, or do you want me to make 7 more regardless?

[Bigragooch]

I am still disappointed that you don't think it would be fair to give us the half point when I was making the effort to follow the rules ... even if I didn't get them exactly right.

To answer your question. No, I do not want to do a playoff in case of a tie. I am tired of this tournament. It was a lot of fun and I enjoyed it throughout, but at this point, I have had enough.

I think a fair tiebreaker would be similar to one that is used throughout the sporting world. In case of a tie, the winner is the team that one the most games head-to-head. So, whoever wins the most games out of the 9 our two teams played against each other would be the winner. I think this is a perfectly reasonable way to make a tiebreaker.

It is your tournament, however, so do whatever you want. If you would like to dock us an additional 25 points for me complaining, I am fine with that. If you want to force a 7 game tiebreaker tournament, fell free to do that, but note that our team will not join that tiebreaker, so you will win by forfeit.

[Blitzaholic]

I am still disappointed that you don't think it would be fair to give us the half point when I was making the effort to follow the rules ... even if I didn't get them exactly right.

To answer your question. No, I do not want to do a playoff in case of a tie. I am tired of this tournament. It was a lot of fun and I enjoyed it throughout, but at this point, I have had enough.

I think a fair tiebreaker would be similar to one that is used throughout the sporting world. In case of a tie, the winner is the team that one the most games head-to-head. So, whoever wins the most games out of the 9 our two teams played against each other would be the winner. I think this is a perfectly reasonable way to make a tiebreaker.

It is your tournament, however, so do whatever you want. If you would like to dock us an additional 25 points for me complaining, I am fine with that. If you want to force a 7 game tiebreaker tournament, fell free to do that, but note that our team will not join that tiebreaker, so you will win by forfeit.

here lies the issue I have

I am still disappointed that you don't think it would be fair to give us the half point when I was making the effort to follow the rules ... even if I didn't get them exactly right.

you admit you did not get it exactly right, however, in over the other 100 games or so in here, you did get them all right, except that one, it only cost you half a point. Same thing happened to my team, I got them all right in last years tourney except one and I did NOT receive my bonus. fair is fair, if I penalize my own team, I have to treat all the same.

ok, if it ends in a tie, we will win and I will forfeit your team if thats what you choose, but, I did try to compromise. I could do best of 3 or 5 if you all think 7 is too many?

[Blitzaholic]

or if it ends up in a tie 197.5 to 197.5 and your team wins 5 of 9 which it looks like you will I can declare you the winners.

I want to do the right thing here and that may be the fairest and most honorable. Let me sleep on it.

[Geoe]

I just want to mention that I support gooch and have no intention of playing any further games in this tournament in the case of a technical tie in points.

As far as I'm concerned, the team we are playing against had an unfair advantage by having the tournament director as a member of their team.

Once again I will mention that we incurred a 6 point penalty when NOBODY on our team was aware that some games had started. I'm not arguing that this was an incorrect interpretation of the rules, but clearly, it is literally impossible for this situation to befall the Horsemen because their team captain is the one who sets up the games so he is ALWAYS aware of when the games are starting and gets to start them at a time that is convenient for him and his personal life (i.e. not at a time when he is in the middle of a business trip as Gooch was when we lost the points). Therefore, the Horsemen have an advantage.

In addition, we lost an untold number of points by not understanding the posting rule when we won in less than 10 rounds (it didn't just happen in this final round--it happened in a number of other rounds as well where we just didn't make a post about it at all). I know most of our team was unaware that this was even a rule until we got to the last round of this tournament and I think it is pretty clear from the above discussion that Gooch did not fully understand it either. I am not saying that ignorance is an excuse because it certainly is not, but I am saying that once again the team with the tournament director has an unfair advantage because he obviously knows exactly how the rules work because he is the one who wrote them.

I think the fact that the Horsemen have not incurred a single penalty or missed a single bonus point is proof of this advantage. I doubt there are many, if any, other teams that made it to the Elite 8 besides the Horsemen that didn't miss out on any points.

The simple truth is that if we had the tournament director on our team, we would not have lost the 6 penalty points and we would have probably gotten all of the bonus points and this tournament would already be effectively over because we would have 10+ more points than we do right now. And it should be noted that under that circumstance we would have only needed to win 4 out of the 9 games in this last round so we could have won the tournament without winning the head to head matchup.

I was fine with all of the above unfair advantage granted to the team with the tournament director when I thought we would still win if we won in the head to head match-up because I personally believe there is some fairness to that outcome. But if we win the head to head matchup and STILL don't win this tournament because of rule technicalities and penalty points, then I will personally consider this whole tournament a sham.

Blitz, it is your tournament and at the end of the day I think it is up to you to decide if it is more important to you to have the team who knew the rules the best win this tournament or the team that played the best win the tournament. I'm not saying either answer is necessarily wrong, but personally I play CC for the fun of competing and trying to win games, not for the "fun" of trying to figure out how tournament rules work.

[Bigragooch]

or if it ends up in a tie 197.5 to 197.5 and your team wins 5 of 9 which it looks like you will I can declare you the winners.

I want to do the right thing here and that may be the fairest and most honorable. Let me sleep on it.

This I agree with. That was the point I was trying to make a few posts ago. Just let it be the team who wins the most games head-to-head, which is what we thought (and discussed in this thread) was going to be the situation when our head-to-head series started.

Thank you.

[Drew483]

I have only this to say - I had a blast playing these games and it has been one helluva match the whole way through.

Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night...

[Bigragooch]

B&HI win Game 6050544 in 10 rounds.

[Blitzaholic]

B&HI win Game 6050544



in 10 rounds.

ok











adding soon

[Blitzaholic]

Teams: The ordered signups The Tremendous 20

1. *blitzaholic, big whiskey, dividebyzero, nephilim, andrewb, incandenza-----------Horsemen
2. *FireStar, InsomniaRed, MrBenn, SuicidalSnowman-----------------------------------Eternal Empire
3. *Lindax, seamusk, Daviedoo, downfall, danfrank, ralphcptc------------------------Rangers of the North
4. *aspalm, bigroo4601, hambone, vicmasters------------------------------------------Four-Skins
5. *daryth, chariot of fire, jpeter15, shatners bassoon------------------------------- JPDaryth's Chariot of Shat
6. *WPBRJ , Meggy, Hacx5nine, Riskier than you---------------------------------------Block Heads
7. *bigragooch, jgalioto, geoe, Haggis_McMutton, Blindmatt, Drew483-------------Bigragooch and His Immortals
8. *Natascha, dragon dor, pascalleke, ronc8649, wilco---------------------------------Hun buns
9. *Marfski, MEK, speed, gcwca_4_life----------------------------------------------------Death from Above
10.*easy n dirty, vexx, paulg, goggles paisano-------------------------------------------The Von Trapp Family Singers
11.*Iccinot Nabrus, kingkoswyn, Phil Gates, LaughingCavalier-------------------------The Gray Matters
12.*taxmanjle, shaneramma, JockDoc, Supposesublys, SC MAN------------------------Magic City Maruaders
13.*iambligh, littlebrother2k7, scorpion86, Iron Maid, hiddendragon, andy1975-----Black Sheep Squadron
14.*sour, gehrem, blockhead15, popeyelvc------------------------------------------------The TeePees
15.*Theotherone, desmondI08, jmelovesGod, brentalexander--------------------------Bruce Brothers
16.*Bigballinstalin, Nola_Lifer, Bigus_Dogus, Amish Ninja, Scottyboymck-----------1 Brit & Crescent City Conquerors
17.*Woodruff, jlduff, Bolo XXXV, Armadillo----------------------------------------------Name to be Determined
18.*ultraman, reahma, magneto_acolyte, elmerfudd-----------------------------------Outsiders
19.*King sam, Gold Knight, jpcloet, murphy16, BluU------------------------------------AOD
20.*rbelgrod, paddy the cat, the true north, phantomzero-----------------------------Regulated Sexahloics

point standings for round 1 and the Sweet 16 that advanced, congratzzz
Teams: The ordered signups
1. Horsemen 44.0
2. Rangers of the North 21.5
3. Four-Skins 22.0
4. Bigragooch and His Immortals 35.5
5. Hun buns 7.0
6. Death from Above 9.0
7. Magic City Maruaders 10.0
8. The Gray Matters 38.5
9. The Von Trapp Family Singers 22.5
10. Black Sheep Squadron 15.0
11. The TeePees 29.5
12. Bruce Brothers 27.0
13. One Brit and the Crescent City Conquerors 21.5
14. Outsiders 45.5
15. AOD 22.0
16. Regulated Sexahloics 20.0

point standings totaled for round 2
Teams: The ordered signups
1. Horsemen 33.0
2. Rangers of the North 22.0
3. Four-Skins 20.0
4. Bigragooch and His Immortals 36.5
5. Hun buns 15.0
6. Death from Above 15.0
7. Magic City Maruaders 3.0
8. The Gray Matters 27.5
9. The Von Trapp Family Singers 21.0
10. Black Sheep Squadron 30.0
11. The TeePees 33.0
12. Bruce Brothers 4.0
13. One Brit and the Crescent City Conquerors 16.5
14. Outsiders 27.5
15. AOD 21.0
16. Regulated Sexaholics 15.0



TOTAL COMBINED FINAL POINTS after Round 1 & 2
and the Final 12 or the DIRTY DOZEN that advanced, congratzzz


1. Horsemen 77.0
2. Rangers of the North 43.5
3. Four-Skins 42.0
4. Bigragooch and His Immortals 72.0
5. The Gray Matters 66.0
6. The Von Trapp Family Singers 43.5
7. Black Sheep Squadron 45.0
8. The TeePees 62.5
9. One Brit and the Crescent City Conquerors 38.0
10. Outsiders 73.0
11. AOD 43.0
12. Regulated Sexaholics 35.0


point standings totaled for round 3
Teams: The ordered signups

1. Horsemen 38.5
2. Rangers of the North 7.0
3. Four-Skins 5.0
4. Bigragooch and His Immortals 42.0
5. The Gray Matters 32.5
6. The Von Trapp Family Singers 35.5
7. Black Sheep Squadron 9.0
8. The TeePees 7.5
9. One Brit and the Crescent City Conquerors 5.0
10. Outsiders 27.5
11. AOD 27.5
12. Regulated Sexaholics 11.0

TOTAL COMBINED FINAL POINTS after 3 Rounds

1. Horsemen 115.5
2. Rangers of the North 50.5
3. Four-Skins 47.0
4. Bigragooch and His Immortals 114.0
5. The Gray Matters 88.5
6. The Von Trapp Family Singers 79.0
7. Black Sheep Squadron 54.0
8. The TeePees 70.0
9. One Brit and the Crescent City Conquerors 43.0
10. Outsiders 100.5
11. AOD 70.5
12. Regulated Sexaholics 46.0


ELITE 8

1. Horsemen 115.5
2. Bigragooch and His Immortals 114.0
3. The Gray Matters 88.5
4. The Von Trapp Family Singers 79.0
5. Black Sheep Squadron 54.0
6. The TeePees 70.0
7. Outsiders 100.5
8. AOD 70.5


Point Standings round 4-completed

1. Horsemen 33.0
2. Bigragooch and His Immortals 37.0
3. The Gray Matters 33.0
4. The Von Trapp Family Singers 32.0
5. Black Sheep Squadron 12.0
6. The TeePees 12.5
7. Outsiders 11.0
8. AOD 16.5

TOTAL COMBINED FINAL POINTS after 4 Rounds completed


FINAL 4


1. Horsemen 148.5
2. Bigragooch and His Immortals 151.0
3. The Gray Matters 121.5
4. Outsiders 111.5


Point Standings round 5-ongoing


1. Horsemen 27.5
2. Bigragooch and His Immortals 20.5
3. The Gray Matters 16.5
4. Outsiders 21.5



Point Standings Totals counting round 5-completed


1. Horsemen 176.0
2. Bigragooch and His Immortals 171.5
3. The Gray Matters 138.0
4. Outsiders 133.0




TOTAL COMBINED FINAL POINTS-6th & Final Round ONGOING



Horsemen of the Apocalypse 192.5

vs

Bigragooch and His Immortals 192.5

updated

[Blitzaholic]

or if it ends up in a tie 197.5 to 197.5 and your team wins 5 of 9 which it looks like you will I can declare you the winners.

I want to do the right thing here and that may be the fairest and most honorable. Let me sleep on it.

This I agree with. That was the point I was trying to make a few posts ago. Just let it be the team who wins the most games head-to-head, which is what we thought (and discussed in this thread) was going to be the situation when our head-to-head series started.



Thank you.

With much thought, this is the way I am leaning towards all.



Thx for all your input, respectfully blitz

[Blitzaholic]

TOTAL COMBINED FINAL POINTS-6th & Final Round ONGOING



Horsemen of the Apocalypse 192.5

vs

Bigragooch and His Immortals 192.5





updated


2 games ongoing

[Big Whiskey]

Horsemen win Game 6050541 Rd.10

[Blitzaholic]

Horsemen win Game 6050541


Rd.10

confirmed



we did win in round 10

[dividedbyzero]

As far as I'm concerned, the team we are playing against had an unfair advantage by having the tournament director as a member of their team.
...
(i.e. not at a time when he is in the middle of a business trip as Gooch was when we lost the points). Therefore, the Horsemen have an advantage.
...
I am not saying that ignorance is an excuse because it certainly is not, but I am saying that once again the team with the tournament director has an unfair advantage because he obviously knows exactly how the rules work because he is the one who wrote them.
...
The simple truth is that if we had the tournament director on our team, we would not have lost the 6 penalty points and we would have probably gotten all of the bonus points and this tournament would already be effectively over because we would have 10+ more points than we do right now.
...
I play CC for the fun of competing and trying to win games, not for the "fun" of trying to figure out how tournament rules work.

I snipped some things out of your post. I appreciate the fact that it's not a flame fest, as I think we're all adults here...

Tourney directors are often part of their own tourneys. I'm not sure why this is even an issue. If the tourney moderators feels that it gives someone an unfair advantage, then they should prohibit tourney directors from also being players in their tourneys. But to say it's an unfair advantage because your captain was on a business trip seems like a strawman argument. Presumably someone was covering his turns and checking his PMs while he was gone, yes ?

Ignorance isn't an excuse as you note. I would feel that anyone that chooses to participate either makes sure they understand the rules or that they ask questions if they do not so they can make sure they are in the know before the tourney begins. To sign up is to agree to the rules that are most certainly laid out long before the first game begins. This was a long and complicated tourney. I don't think anyone is contesting that. The fact that it's going to come down to a technicality either way sucks.

Both teams (well, all teams) played hard. Let's be honest, if Blitz opts to follow the rules and deny you the 1/2 point, you'll cry foul. If he does, you win, but frankly, I feel a bit slighted to lose on that same technicality. Playing a final set of games seems like the great equalizer, but apparently that's not acceptable. I would hope there is an agreeable solution all around, but it seems that no matter what, someone feels slighted.

I would hope that everyone involved in this would make sure that they understand the rules in the future. I'm not going to fight and argue, but the touchstone of a fair deal is would you be happy with it if it were turned around. Would you ? We all want an honorable solution. I'm just not entirely sure what it is.

I don't see me posting any more on the subject. I'm sure I'll talk with my teammates about it and let Blitz ultimately decide. I hate that it comes down to this technicality issue and that is detracting on what a tough tourney this has been.

Merry Christmas all.

[Blitzaholic]

I have only this to say - I had a blast playing these games and it has been one helluva match the whole way through.

Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night...

thank you for your kind words and the many that have posted and shared this was the one of the best tourney's they have ever played. This is very generous and kind of you all. However, I am still on the fence with all this, because If I give you guys the win and we tied in points, my team feels snubbed and I do not blame them. Is there any way you all would consider just an extended best of 3 games to finalize it? Only reason I ask is because all were aware of the rules and all followed them the whole tourney with no issues, now in the finals with over 300 games played, it is down to the wire, there is an issue, why should I change the rules now? I never have before and my team has got penalized in bonus points the last time I organized this because I did not post the rounds we won in within 72 hours and I deducted points from my own team. I may have strict rules, but, I treat all with the same strictness. I just want to do what is right and not sure exactly what that is yet.

[Blitzaholic]

-


update


TOTAL COMBINED FINAL POINTS-6th & Final Round ONGOING



Horsemen of the Apocalypse 197.5

vs

Bigragooch and His Immortals 192.5




with one game to go and looks like you will win that which would make this a draw or tie unless we can extend a few more games. excellent battles!

[Blitzaholic]

happy holidays to all and their families


and



Merry Christmas