Some thoughts for non-believers

[haggispittjr]

i was raised christian and became an atheist, so was one of my sisters and alot of other's i know, so the facts ARE true. and the reason was cause i stoped blindly believing what i was being told and looked at the logic of things.

[Symmetry]

I'm not going to keep quoting all of these sections, but this is for Jesterhawk's thoughtful reply to my post.

Strictly speaking Aquinas makes an argument for angels being part of a hierarchy of interaction between God and man. Basically- they are agents of God and represent certain of his aspects. There tends to be a lot of problems with modern thinking about angels, in my opinion, as many see them as people with wings. It's also quite strange that when people nowadays think of angels they think of archangels as being particularly powerful. Actually they were extremely low in the hierarchy- closest to earth. I don't think many people really understand how angels functioned for most Christian thought in the past.

Essentially Aquinas sees them as manifestations of God's will, with intelligence, but without free will, and that they are fundamentally not physical beings in any sense. Confusing our understanding of freedom with the understanding of angels would, for Aquinas, be a fallacy.

This is pretty dense stuff, but I would recommend Aquinas. He's pretty easy to read in translation, and his arguments are fairly clear. I thought you might have because you mentioned God shaping their personalities as opposed to having them develop. The reason I asked about denomination is because there were and are a huge range of doctrines and interpretations of angels, free will, and Lucifer's rebellion. Lucifer's rebellion, however, is pretty much a teaching and not strictly a part of the Bible. Dogmatic (as in church teaching) elements of the story dominate the few Biblical references they refer to.

[Kotaro]

Ok, here ya go buddy.

Not Really. Here's 4 points that seem to me indisputable given the common definition of the Christian God.

1. God knows everything about everything

2. God created everything

3. Given the first two points, God knew everything there was to know about everything before he created it

4. Given the third point, God knew Satan was a bad egg

Where am I wrong there?

And he also knows what's to come, yes. And God knew Satan was evil, yes; he also knows that, in each and every person, there will be evil. God has given us free will for a reason - because he wants love that is true and pure, not built upon force. Asking someone to believe and love you for what you are, our Father, and demanding it, is 2 entirely different ideas.

If He Himself commands purity and heavenly behavior, how could He deny us the right to choose that? God is not a hypocrite.

Although I feel that I could still argue with john, I have to say that it is incredibly refreshing to find some small middle ground on this debate. He is, seriously, the first person I have met who is willing to grant that, given this world, God has some (serious, in my opinion) explaining to do about his omnipotence, omniscience, and omnibenevolence.

QFT
And seconded

I agree about the arguing - rarely does one thread like this reach even 3 pages before it has turned into personal attacks. The fact that this thread has lasted as long as it has is incredible in and of itself, and shows that not all users on this board are as close-minded as they sometimes appear.

As for God explaining himself, make it to Heaven and you can ask him yourself

People find many "links" in the Bible, but the key is whether this is what the Bible itself says or something that people try to paint onto text. Codexes are a prime example. Some people believe in them, but most scholars have found absolutely no real link between these "codes" and anything real. So, too with these "symetry" issues.

The fact is, while the bible is a little vague yes, it calls for events to happen. It doesn't say "In 2010, lackattack will die of a stroke and leave CC over to Optimus Prime, whom will subsequently ruin it...", or anything like that. It calls for events that are big to happen, and says they will. Specifics are not required, because these events are large enough to be easily recognized by the faithful and well educated.

If He really wanted to convince everyone of the world of His existence, He would simply paint a giant sign in the sky that said "God this way", and have a nice little yellow brick road set up to take you to His throne. It doesn't - He commands faith, not through proving His existence as absolute proof, but by sending us signs that He is still there.

If its not actually IN the Bible, it must be questioned. Worse, most such things, at their root, go far from taking people toward God. Many of these things are leading to major divisions in our church today. Christ is a uniter, not a divider of God's people. Even the early church had dissention over some subjects. Why were they allowed to persist in the Bible? Probably because these are issues about which humans are allowed to disagree, about which humans in relation with God can find different answers. Christ told us "he who believes in me shall have eternal life". He did not say "he who believes in symetry, he who thinks the Earth was created in 7 days... etc.".

First of all, the Church is Jesus' bride. And these days, the bride is very ugly indeed. Divisions have indeed been made, and the Church is shambles of its former self. Back in the day, the Church was devoted to God, and nowadays, more and more are falling from that pedestal that is the bride of Christ. The path back to salvation, after having been involved in what the Church has become, is a long one, but worth it.

As for their allowances - I have said a little earlier, and I will say it again. God wants us to come to him WILLINGLY - He doesn't want mindless, forced slaves, but loving individuals that have chosen their Lord over temptation and sin.

I don't believe I have ever said "bullshit" to scripture. I HAVE said that while some people read and see the things you believe in those words, many others who read and believe in the Bible equally well do not, so to try and claim that your view is absolute and that anyone who disagrees is not reading or following the Bible is just wrong. Neither you nor anyone else has the full truth. It is in the Bible, but since we are ALL imperfect human beings, we human beings will make errors. That is why we are to discuss things and not shout dogma.

it is true that we are discussing things, and I have not accused you of saying anything against the bible - I am merely saying it happens, and on this forum, I would not be surprised if many people were shouting a lot of inappropriate things (again, 15 pages, bah, not going to read all of that). And yes, people can get different things from the bible, even with the same educational level - some can see it as Salvation and the end all be all of rulebooks for life, while others can simply not take it seriously. Perception of life itself is defined by lifetimes, experiences, etc, and no one agrees 100% on everything. People disagree - it happens, but that doesn't disprove us, or strengthen your position, or vice-versa, it is merely perception at its finest.

Problem is that for the Earth to be 12,000 years old would require disputing scientific evidence as much or more than saying "Oxeygen does not exist". And, I repeat, I have yet to find even one person who will honestly and truly debate the realities. Usually what I get are complete and utter misunderstandings of what science is supposedly saying and dismissal of evidence that exists (such as certain fossils). Any time we get close to a real issue, the young earthers come back with "you are just making different assumptions" ... but again, they never clarify what those different assumptions are.

And again, you have a few people here that are willing to debate with you - yet you're getting hung up on past experiences and refusing to put your all into this debate. So get over what happened - we're here, and ready to defend our belief to the day we die. God willing, that won't be tomorrow.

[jonesthecurl]

On the subject of predictions, I've had fortune cookies and newspaper horoscopes that were remarkably accurate, but I don't think that proves them to be holy scripture.

[jesterhawk]

Well, you could say that God purposefully introduced evil into the world for reasons unknown (a.k.a. being "malevolent"). That would mean that making humans overcome evil is more good than having no evil at all for them...

That would be malevolent to all beings he created. Because he knew that the Angels would "betray" him, and he knew that he would punish them. Essentialy punishing them for what he condemned them to do before he made them... The same would be said for humans and beasts. Since Adam and Eve would have been made with the knowledge that they would eat the apple.

Wow are you making a leap that is too fair to stretch. God made us with the freedom to make a choice. Although he knew what we were going to chose, he would only be malevolent if he overrode that ability and forced beings to take a certain "evil" path. But God does not do that. Instead he moved all things around trying to show each and everyone one of us what the right path but leaves the choice up to us. Thus we condemn or find redemption on our own. All you are doing is trying to take the onus off of yourself (humanity) and place it somewhere else so that you can claim no responsibility.

And if it's the case for humans, then Jesus dying for our sins is unjust. We are all born with original sin which we got by Eve betraying God. But she was made to do just that.
I could go on and on. But what is evil? Sounds like God is the evil one there, not Satan.

In fact, the Bible does make it clear that Jesus was unjustly crucified for our sins. But in a display of the greatest kind of love, he willing submitted himself to be crucified so that we would have the choice available to follow him right into heaven.

Eve was not made to sin nor was she predisposed to. She was made to make choices and God gave her everything to let her make the right choices. Take a look at it from God's perspective, he gave them everything in the Garden and on Earth except one tree and they couldn't be happy with that. Granted she was coaxed but in the end she and Adam both made the decision. And really it is about more than that if you really study what happened in the Garden on that day.

God the evil one? Failure to understand God does not make him evil. Neither does not wanting to be held responsible for our actions make God evil. If you study you will find that God IS love and everything he has done has been done out of love and great love for us.

Or, you could say that God really doesn't know what's going to happen, and free will is outside his realm of influence. That would make him only omnipotent and omniscient where humans are not involved (or animals, or whatever you consider free will).

Where Humans and Angels and Beasts are involved... since we all have free will. That puts Heaven, Hell, and Earth out of his control. .

Really? He maintained order in heaven by expelling lucifer and his followers. He did not destroy them but placed them outside of his home, heaven.

Hell is in control of lucifer and although God could take that from him, he leaves that place because the Bible describes hell as a place that is completely separate from God where there is much torture going on not because of God but because of being separated from God in lucifers control (and this is why it amazes me that there are people who actually want to go there).

Earth, God placed in our hands in the Garden of Eden and we lost it to the devil when we fell (I actually described all of this in another thread). Thus the Earth is not in lucifer's control.

But the fact that God gave others control of his creation does not make him evil. Isn't every parent in the world (or just about) always telling their children to share and yet you are saying you would not want God too.

You could argue that, had God not given us free will, we would never really love Him, because love has to be a choice. I think I'd prefer that if I was God.

That would mean that he gave everyone free will, but you can't have free will if God knows everything about everything. He could have made Eve more loyal so she wouldn't eat the apple. But he didn't. And he knew before creating her that would lead to her eating the apple.... thus there is no free will. He chose the path for her. And so, nothing he created could have free will.
And we are all condemned for that? Satan too? Nah.

Again you are making a leap here. Just because God gave us freedom and knew the future of our choices does not take away our responsibility to make right choices or make God evil. Remember he desired for all of his creations to make the right choice. It was satan's choice to do what he did and was punished for it. We are condemned because of our choices like the choice to not accept the free gift of heaven through Jesus and we are held responsible for those choices.

You really should look at it the other way around. God loves us so much that he gives us freedom. And he loves us enough to make us own up and take responsibility for our choices. It is what any good parent would do.



Love in Christ,
JH

[Symmetry]

Strictly speaking, according to the Bible, God created humans with ethics, not morals. Ethics being the understanding and obedience towards laws.

Morality, that is the knowledge of the difference between good and evil, would be part of the Fall. Basically we fell due to disobedience, and because of that we are cursed with never truly knowing right from wrong.

[mpjh]

On the subject of predictions, I've had fortune cookies and newspaper horoscopes that were remarkably accurate, but I don't think that proves them to be holy scripture.

You know that your wife purchased those fortunes beforehand and slipped them onto the tray for you.

[Juan_Bottom]

Yet, given limited choices (that he perhaps set up for reasons we also don't understand), there are only so many options.

In the free will issue, logically, if God made us so that we would not choose evil, then he would have made us more robots or animals than humans. If he made us to be evil, then, too, we are mere robots. Instead, God gave us a choice... gives all of us a chioce. That means that some of us endure results of bad things other people do, it means some benefit from good things. I cannot begin to understand how, with logic, this could happen. I just believe it did

So you agree that this doesn't make sense, but you believe that it will when you go to heaven.
Well that's a thought...
But God doesn't give all of us a choice. He didn't give Eve or Adam or the Angels a choice. He made their brains specifically. And he knew what course humankind would later take so we really don't get perfect free will there either. God made them so they would choose evil.

I don't think these facts are right. As a mere measure, I know a lot of Christians and only about half of them grew up in faith. Out of the rest about a third had atheist or agnostic parents and they turned from it. In fact, I know a lot of Christians whose family will not speak to them because of their decision to become a Christian. So, I am not sure about your facts.

As for the assertion that most atheists have rejected their parents views, I only know (personally not counting here) two atheists and one was brought up in faith and rejected it. The second was a child of atheists and have followed their parents lead. So, I can't really say if your statement is true or not.

14% of American's are Atheists or have no interest in religion. If I remember correctly. That's a bigger minority than blacks or gays, but still dwarfed by the % of believers. Though to be completely fair, I don't think most "believers" can be described as Christian. That wouldn't be fair to real Christians who actually study what they are talking about, or accomplish things in the name of God. But that is saying that most Atheists have rejected a faith that they were raised with.

And my mother forced me go to Church that's for sure.

Granted,

Good that's two!

but look at us for example and perhaps see why God would create such a being.

Well first we would have to agree that the bible got the message of free will wrong though, right? Ok, just for the sake of argument!

We, humans, have a conscious mind and freedom to choose to do whatever we want. We can choose good or bad. We can choose to eat that dozen donuts that will not do good for my waist line or eat a healthy fruit snack. I can choose to kill someone or I can choose to bless someone. And I can choose to rebel against God and convince everyone I know to do the same or I can serve God. And each of these examples have a range of other choices as well, but for illustration I just chose these.

And BAM I disagree again. Sticking with the Eve analogy... God DIRECTLY made Eve's mind. He chose how loyal, smart, funny, morbid, ect her personality would be. And while making that mind he knew exactly how her future would change with each tweak.
So there he left her with a mind that would be overcome by Satan (another mind he made directly) essentially damning her to sin(while already knowing this before he made her). Then he condemned her for doing what he made both her and Satan to do.
Now that lack of free will just directly covers 'first generationers' like the Angels and I know it. But God could also see the path that it would set mankind on. And since he tweaked it in the beginning, he chose your path in the future. So while it feels like free will, you never really had a choice. And yet you were born with original sin that you don't really deserve, do you? God tricked you there.
Or it's a Church ploy to keep you feeling guilty for being human ensuring life long support.

The worst part is that you believe he even gave me free will and intelligence, and then he will punish me for using it.

Or perhaps God did because he hoped that we would choose good and not evil. Does he know everything, yes, but that does not mean that he wouldn't have created us because there are many who will choose to do good and choose to love God back for all he has done for us.

If God knows everything, he knew we would choose Good or Evil. And since he made us this way, he chose for us didn't he? There again, free will takes a little hit.

Does that mean that God is malevolent? No, it means that God IS love and love hopes all things (like the best in everyone to do good) and bears all things (like wrongs suffered against him including the rebellion in heaven) and never fails (because God will always be). In the end, God created the angels and one turned bad and then he convince a third of all the angels to side with him

God made the Angels directly. They didn't do anything that God didn't make them to do. And then he punished them for it. At the risk of losing cred ability and sounding Satanic;
It almost makes Satan into a tragic hero of some kind. Doing God's work and getting zero credit... only fear and hate.

So, is God malevolent because you exist even though you have done things that in his eyes would be considered evil? Should you have not been created because perhaps your biggest sin is that you were a bit rebellious to your parents when you were a teen or perhaps you told a few white lies? I am sure you would answer no. Yet, you then complain that God didn't destroy a creation of his because YOU find his sins unacceptable. Doesn't that make you a hypocrite? Just food for thought not condemning anyone.

Well I'm not really trying to make a point about good or bad. Just that there is no free will from a Biblical standpoint. And I think that Lucifer and Eve are the easiest examples for everyone to grasp. I remember wrapping my head around the Eve dilemma in Sunday School when I was like 13.
Those are also my biggest sins BTW.

And he also knows what's to come, yes. And God knew Satan was evil, yes; he also knows that, in each and every person, there will be evil. God has given us free will for a reason - because he wants love that is true and pure, not built upon force.

Caught ya! Satan didn't have free will. God must have made him with that purpose. None of the Angels or first humans could have had free will.

Specifics are not required, because these events are large enough to be easily recognized by the faithful and well educated.

Is this because it effects free will, or is it a Miss Cleo thing?

If He really wanted to convince everyone of the world of His existence, He would simply paint a giant sign in the sky that said "God this way", and have a nice little yellow brick road set up to take you to His throne. It doesn't - He commands faith, not through proving His existence as absolute proof, but by sending us signs that He is still there.

If he did put up a sign there it wouldn't effect free will... I don't see what the big deal is. One sign, and nothing else. If you still want to sleep with your sister no God stops you. But you can't miss the warning sign...
It's like early Bible. Even Adam met God, and still bit the apple.

God wants us to come to him WILLINGLY - He doesn't want mindless, forced slaves, but loving individuals that have chosen their Lord over temptation and sin.

The first creations were the opposite.

[jonesthecurl]

On the subject of predictions, I've had fortune cookies and newspaper horoscopes that were remarkably accurate, but I don't think that proves them to be holy scripture.

You know that your wife purchased those fortunes beforehand and slipped them onto the tray for you.

Damn. Is that why I keep getting fortune cookies which say "Buy your wife a new dress. You know, the one she liked the other day. In Macy's. It's on sale. The green one."

I thought they were pretty specific.

[Symmetry]

Yet, given limited choices (that he perhaps set up for reasons we also don't understand), there are only so many options.

In the free will issue, logically, if God made us so that we would not choose evil, then he would have made us more robots or animals than humans. If he made us to be evil, then, too, we are mere robots. Instead, God gave us a choice... gives all of us a chioce. That means that some of us endure results of bad things other people do, it means some benefit from good things. I cannot begin to understand how, with logic, this could happen. I just believe it did

So you agree that this doesn't make sense, but you believe that it will when you go to heaven.
Well that's a thought...
But God doesn't give all of us a choice. He didn't give Eve or Adam or the Angels a choice. He made their brains specifically. And he knew what course humankind would later take so we really don't get perfect free will there either. God made them so they would choose evil.

I don't think these facts are right. As a mere measure, I know a lot of Christians and only about half of them grew up in faith. Out of the rest about a third had atheist or agnostic parents and they turned from it. In fact, I know a lot of Christians whose family will not speak to them because of their decision to become a Christian. So, I am not sure about your facts.

As for the assertion that most atheists have rejected their parents views, I only know (personally not counting here) two atheists and one was brought up in faith and rejected it. The second was a child of atheists and have followed their parents lead. So, I can't really say if your statement is true or not.

14% of American's are Atheists or have no interest in religion. If I remember correctly. That's a bigger minority than blacks or gays, but still dwarfed by the % of believers. Though to be completely fair, I don't think most "believers" can be described as Christian. That wouldn't be fair to real Christians who actually study what they are talking about, or accomplish things in the name of God. But that is saying that most Atheists have rejected a faith that they were raised with.

And my mother forced me go to Church that's for sure.

Granted,

Good that's two!

but look at us for example and perhaps see why God would create such a being.

Well first we would have to agree that the bible got the message of free will wrong though, right? Ok, just for the sake of argument!

We, humans, have a conscious mind and freedom to choose to do whatever we want. We can choose good or bad. We can choose to eat that dozen donuts that will not do good for my waist line or eat a healthy fruit snack. I can choose to kill someone or I can choose to bless someone. And I can choose to rebel against God and convince everyone I know to do the same or I can serve God. And each of these examples have a range of other choices as well, but for illustration I just chose these.

And BAM I disagree again. Sticking with the Eve analogy... God DIRECTLY made Eve's mind. He chose how loyal, smart, funny, morbid, ect her personality would be. And while making that mind he knew exactly how her future would change with each tweak.
So there he left her with a mind that would be overcome by Satan (another mind he made directly) essentially damning her to sin(while already knowing this before he made her). Then he condemned her for doing what he made both her and Satan to do.
Now that lack of free will just directly covers 'first generationers' like the Angels and I know it. But God could also see the path that it would set mankind on. And since he tweaked it in the beginning, he chose your path in the future. So while it feels like free will, you never really had a choice. And yet you were born with original sin that you don't really deserve, do you? God tricked you there.
Or it's a Church ploy to keep you feeling guilty for being human ensuring life long support.

The worst part is that you believe he even gave me free will and intelligence, and then he will punish me for using it.

Or perhaps God did because he hoped that we would choose good and not evil. Does he know everything, yes, but that does not mean that he wouldn't have created us because there are many who will choose to do good and choose to love God back for all he has done for us.

If God knows everything, he knew we would choose Good or Evil. And since he made us this way, he chose for us didn't he? There again, free will takes a little hit.

Does that mean that God is malevolent? No, it means that God IS love and love hopes all things (like the best in everyone to do good) and bears all things (like wrongs suffered against him including the rebellion in heaven) and never fails (because God will always be). In the end, God created the angels and one turned bad and then he convince a third of all the angels to side with him

God made the Angels directly. They didn't do anything that God didn't make them to do. And then he punished them for it. At the risk of losing cred ability and sounding Satanic;
It almost makes Satan into a tragic hero of some kind. Doing God's work and getting zero credit... only fear and hate.

So, is God malevolent because you exist even though you have done things that in his eyes would be considered evil? Should you have not been created because perhaps your biggest sin is that you were a bit rebellious to your parents when you were a teen or perhaps you told a few white lies? I am sure you would answer no. Yet, you then complain that God didn't destroy a creation of his because YOU find his sins unacceptable. Doesn't that make you a hypocrite? Just food for thought not condemning anyone.

Well I'm not really trying to make a point about good or bad. Just that there is no free will from a Biblical standpoint. And I think that Lucifer and Eve are the easiest examples for everyone to grasp. I remember wrapping my head around the Eve dilemma in Sunday School when I was like 13.
Those are also my biggest sins BTW.

And he also knows what's to come, yes. And God knew Satan was evil, yes; he also knows that, in each and every person, there will be evil. God has given us free will for a reason - because he wants love that is true and pure, not built upon force.

Caught ya! Satan didn't have free will. God must have made him with that purpose. None of the Angels or first humans could have had free will.

Specifics are not required, because these events are large enough to be easily recognized by the faithful and well educated.

Is this because it effects free will, or is it a Miss Cleo thing?

If He really wanted to convince everyone of the world of His existence, He would simply paint a giant sign in the sky that said "God this way", and have a nice little yellow brick road set up to take you to His throne. It doesn't - He commands faith, not through proving His existence as absolute proof, but by sending us signs that He is still there.

If he did put up a sign there it wouldn't effect free will... I don't see what the big deal is. One sign, and nothing else. If you still want to sleep with your sister no God stops you. But you can't miss the warning sign...
It's like early Bible. Even Adam met God, and still bit the apple.

God wants us to come to him WILLINGLY - He doesn't want mindless, forced slaves, but loving individuals that have chosen their Lord over temptation and sin.

The first creations were the opposite.

Seriously people! Just quote the points you disagree with. Or put an ellipsis (...) in the middle. No slight on your points Juan- they're good. Just seems that a lot of people are posting page long comments. It's tough to read.

[MeDeFe]

@jesterhawk

If god knows everything that is going to unfold in someone's life, every choice a person is going to make, before it happens, this means that there is only one path a person can take. To the person it may seem like they are choosing to eat the donuts instead of the fruit, but god already knew they were going to go for the donuts. If they had eaten the fruit, god's knowledge would have been wrong (and therefor not knowledge) and god would be fallible.

You can't have both, it's logically impossible for god to be perfectly omniscient and for free will to exist.

[jesterhawk]

Juan, I will post to your post later as I am at work and really tight on time to reply.

@jesterhawk

If god knows everything that is going to unfold in someone's life, every choice a person is going to make, before it happens, this means that there is only one path a person can take. To the person it may seem like they are choosing to eat the donuts instead of the fruit, but god already knew they were going to go for the donuts. If they had eaten the fruit, god's knowledge would have been wrong (and therefor not knowledge) and god would be fallible.

You can't have both, it's logically impossible for god to be perfectly omniscient and for free will to exist.

Just because God knows everything you will do does not mean that he didn't give you control over your life which is the essence of free will. Only if he interfered with your control over your life would his omniscience come into question.

JH

[Kotaro]

Caught ya! Satan didn't have free will. God must have made him with that purpose. None of the Angels or first humans could have had free will.

True, Satan did not have free will. He is the essence of sin; the polar opposite to all that is holy. Let me rephrase.

I was not stating that he had free will. When I said "every person", Angels were not included. Each was created for their own purpose; Satan is evil, yes. Without evil, no one can choose to be good, because good is not defined. Basicly, without Satan, no one could truly come to salvation through free will, because there would be no choise. Satan and Sin are necessary.

Is this because it effects free will, or is it a Miss Cleo thing?

I don't know wtf Miss Cleo is <_< I don't get out much, most of my time is spent doing other things then keeping up with witty little jokes like that.

A free will thing. If God had stated "9/11, plan crash, gg America", all believers would be given a preview of what was to come, and since they would believe it fully as truth, they would be given an advantage over all else. Everyone is equal in the eyes of God.

If he did put up a sign there it wouldn't effect free will... I don't see what the big deal is. One sign, and nothing else. If you still want to sleep with your sister no God stops you. But you can't miss the warning sign...
It's like early Bible. Even Adam met God, and still bit the apple.

I definitely disagree with that. The proof that God is all He says he is, would prove a major thing that would drive even the most hardened people into His love; Hell. The idea of an eternity in pain and suffering after life for sins, would drive EVERYONE into his arms, if not for love, but for fear.

If I told you that touching something would kill you, that you would have touched otherwise, you wouldn't touch it.

The first creations were the opposite.

The first creation was before sin was present in us. At that time, we were 100% innocent, and a fitting image of Godlikeness. However, with the trickery, sin entered our hearts, and as such, our entire design changed.

And before you say it, yes, I believe God knew of this, and let it happen. He let everything happen.

[jonesthecurl]

OK well here's the thing.
according to Genesis, god created humans without the knowledge of Good and Evil. They didn't have a choice until that naughty Satan chap got them to eat the fruit.
Since the first thing they do is cover up their naughty bits, we have to assume that they wouldn't have known about sex before that.
So god's plan would appear to be that there should only be two people. Though he made them fertile, but just expected them not to learn about all that sort of stuff. If, of course, he really wanted them to have offspring, then it was cheatng to tell them not to eat the fruit.

[john9blue]

Sex isn't bad, animals do it all the time. Evil aspects of human nature make it taboo in society.

[PLAYER57832]

If its not actually IN the Bible, it must be questioned. Worse, most such things, at their root, go far from taking people toward God. Many of these things are leading to major divisions in our church today. Christ is a uniter, not a divider of God's people. Even the early church had dissention over some subjects. Why were they allowed to persist in the Bible? Probably because these are issues about which humans are allowed to disagree, about which humans in relation with God can find different answers. Christ told us "he who believes in me shall have eternal life". He did not say "he who believes in symetry, he who thinks the Earth was created in 7 days... etc.".

First of all, the Church is Jesus' bride. And these days, the bride is very ugly indeed. Divisions have indeed been made, and the Church is shambles of its former self. Back in the day, the Church was devoted to God, and nowadays, more and more are falling from that pedestal that is the bride of Christ. The path back to salvation, after having been involved in what the Church has become, is a long one, but worth it

As for their allowances - I have said a little earlier, and I will say it again. God wants us to come to him WILLINGLY - He doesn't want mindless, forced slaves, but loving individuals that have chosen their Lord over temptation and sin.

I am not sure what you meant by that willingly bit. Of course, I agree. I just don't see the relevance to the points here.

As for the other, Ironically enough, even the disciples are known to have strongly disagreed. The church was united in love and belief, but that came in spite of many differences on both minor and serious issues. The Gospels, the original churches, all had very different characters. All were Christian. I am not Roman Catholic. I am not comfortable with much of what they assert, consider some things wrong. However, I acknowledge them to be Christian. I debate within the church, not as to accuse them of being outside it. That is the difference. I have met many in the newer "Evangelical" or "Charismatic" type churches who have true understanding and who truly exemplify Christ. Sadly, the most prominant folks seem to be those who spread dissent and division, who judge rather than forgiving, who are so blind to their own hypocrisy they almost seem to celebrate it.

I don't believe I have ever said "bullshit" to scripture. I HAVE said that while some people read and see the things you believe in those words, many others who read and believe in the Bible equally well do not, so to try and claim that your view is absolute and that anyone who disagrees is not reading or following the Bible is just wrong. Neither you nor anyone else has the full truth. It is in the Bible, but since we are ALL imperfect human beings, we human beings will make errors. That is why we are to discuss things and not shout dogma.

it is true that we are discussing things, and I have not accused you of saying anything against the bible - I am merely saying it happens, and on this forum, I would not be surprised if many people were shouting a lot of inappropriate things (again, 15 pages, bah, not going to read all of that). And yes, people can get different things from the bible, even with the same educational level - some can see it as Salvation and the end all be all of rulebooks for life, while others can simply not take it seriously. Perception of life itself is defined by lifetimes, experiences, etc, and no one agrees 100% on everything. People disagree - it happens, but that doesn't disprove us, or strengthen your position, or vice-versa, it is merely perception at its finest.

No, you misunderstand or just disagree.
I am not referring to people who "don't take the Bible seriously". I mean scholars who study the Bible as their life's work, who fully do believe. I mean that Christ did not lay out a specific road map. I mean that much of what you point to as signs... are not necessarily that at all. I am not going to debate the specifics right now because I am working on other issues at the moment and just don't have the time to do the research needed. I have in the past, but I am shaky on the details, so could not do a good job of debating it now. However, I take very serious issue with people who try to point to such signs. Usually, they get wrapped up with all these other things that I really and truly do not believe come from God or the Bible.

God teaches us to love one another, not judge one another.

Problem is that for the Earth to be 12,000 years old would require disputing scientific evidence as much or more than saying "Oxeygen does not exist". And, I repeat, I have yet to find even one person who will honestly and truly debate the realities. Usually what I get are complete and utter misunderstandings of what science is supposedly saying and dismissal of evidence that exists (such as certain fossils). Any time we get close to a real issue, the young earthers come back with "you are just making different assumptions" ... but again, they never clarify what those different assumptions are.

And again, you have a few people here that are willing to debate with you - yet you're getting hung up on past experiences and refusing to put your all into this debate. So get over what happened - we're here, and ready to defend our belief to the day we die. God willing, that won't be tomorrow.

I would love to debate the age of Earth question, though I suggest it be in another thread, because this one is already in a few different (interesting) directions. However, just to use CC as an example, there are over 100 pages of posts already in the thread Widowmaker began. There was not one person who could put forward any real evidence that the Earth was young.

[MeDeFe]

@jesterhawk

If god knows everything that is going to unfold in someone's life, every choice a person is going to make, before it happens, this means that there is only one path a person can take. To the person it may seem like they are choosing to eat the donuts instead of the fruit, but god already knew they were going to go for the donuts. If they had eaten the fruit, god's knowledge would have been wrong (and therefor not knowledge) and god would be fallible.

You can't have both, it's logically impossible for god to be perfectly omniscient and for free will to exist.

Just because God knows everything you will do does not mean that he didn't give you control over your life which is the essence of free will. Only if he interfered with your control over your life would his omniscience come into question.

JH

Aaaand.... the guy with the beak and the funny hat doesn't get it.

Let me explain it again.

Take 'knowledge'. Knowledge, in order to be knowledge, has to be true, otherwise it's just a hunch, a supposition or a guess.
Now take 'choice'. 'Choice' implies that there are several options, at least two and possibly more.
But if god knows what a person is going to do before the person does it there are no other options than the one god knew the person would go for, all other "choices" the person may think they have are, in fact, nonexistent. This is because knowledge has to be true.
Choices and free will are incompatible with god knowing how the future will unfold, it's a logical impossibility on par with having something and its opposite at the same time. Like you can't look at the sky and see it being overcast as well as unclouded at the same time.

[jesterhawk]

Take 'knowledge'. Knowledge, in order to be knowledge, has to be true, otherwise it's just a hunch, a supposition or a guess.
Now take 'choice'. 'Choice' implies that there are several options, at least two and possibly more.
But if god knows what a person is going to do before the person does it there are no other options than the one god knew the person would go for, all other "choices" the person may think they have are, in fact, nonexistent. This is because knowledge has to be true.
Choices and free will are incompatible with god knowing how the future will unfold, it's a logical impossibility on par with having something and its opposite at the same time. Like you can't look at the sky and see it being overcast as well as unclouded at the same time.

I see your point. However, you still had the choice. Yes, you took the one path that God, who knew the future, knew you were going to take, but that does not mean that YOU didn't have a choice. It just means that God knew about it.

And what if, and we do not know this because we are not God and you are presenting an argument from God's point of view, God can not only see the future, but sees multiple futures. What if every decision in time has an infinite amount of choices and until we make the choice the path is not set. God, being God and completely omniscient, can see not only the path you WILL take, but every other possible path that you CAN take and all of their effects on others and so forth. Then God in his infinite wisdom will, and he does, attempt to persuade you to the right path. He will not stomp on your choice, but he will do his best to let you know which path is the best. Since we do not know the capacity of God even though the Bible declares he is infinite in knowledge, it is possible that this is the case making him the knower of all things including knowledge and yet still giving us choice to decide the path of our lives.



And now as promised...

So you agree that this doesn't make sense, but you believe that it will when you go to heaven.

I do not agree that it does not make sense.

Well that's a thought...
But God doesn't give all of us a choice. He didn't give Eve or Adam or the Angels a choice. He made their brains specifically. And he knew what course humankind would later take so we really don't get perfect free will there either. God made them so they would choose evil.

Technically, it would be that God made them with the capacity to choose evil. The fact that he knew they would given an array of options that included evil and good, does not mean that he MADE them choose evil.

Also see above.

but look at us for example and perhaps see why God would create such a being.

Well first we would have to agree that the bible got the message of free will wrong though, right? Ok, just for the sake of argument!

I don't think so as stated above.

And BAM I disagree again. Sticking with the Eve analogy... God DIRECTLY made Eve's mind. He chose how loyal, smart, funny, morbid, ect her personality would be. And while making that mind he knew exactly how her future would change with each tweak.
So there he left her with a mind that would be overcome by Satan (another mind he made directly) essentially damning her to sin(while already knowing this before he made her). Then he condemned her for doing what he made both her and Satan to do.

Again, she had the God given capacity to make the right choice. The funny thing is that we would not be having this debate if God had made us predisposed to always choose the right path. Granted some still might find a way to overcome, but they would be rare and not as predominate as it appears. It would then lead to eventually someone somewhere choosing wrong whether it was Adam and Eve or say Noah or Moses or all the way down to you and then God would punish that person or persons and you would still cry unfair because you were the select few tossed out of the garden. It is like I said earlier, there is no pleasing you. The simple fact is that you don't want to believe in God no matter how much he has given to you. And by you, I mean the group that proceeds to find fault in everything and anything God does and not one person in particular.

Now that lack of free will just directly covers 'first generationers' like the Angels and I know it. But God could also see the path that it would set mankind on. And since he tweaked it in the beginning, he chose your path in the future. So while it feels like free will, you never really had a choice. And yet you were born with original sin that you don't really deserve, do you? God tricked you there.
Or it's a Church ploy to keep you feeling guilty for being human ensuring life long support.

The worst part is that you believe he even gave me free will and intelligence, and then he will punish me for using it.

This is where I can see that you don't understand God. Church is not about feeling guilty but about freedom. I am so sorry that you never got to learn that from a good church.

As for God giving you freedom and then punishing you for it, let me ask you this, what about responsibility? Are you saying that you are not responsible for your bad choices. That it was your parents, the state, or even God that made you do it? At some point in the free will society there has to be accountability and responsibility for the choices that you make. Just because God holds you to what you have decided I fail to see how that makes him bad. But then I guess if he is bad for making your responsible all the parents who disciple their children are also all bad for doing so.

If God knows everything, he knew we would choose Good or Evil. And since he made us this way, he chose for us didn't he? There again, free will takes a little hit.

Only if you were Godly predisposed to pick a certain path. The fact that God gives you the freedom to do whatever you want regardless of the consequences does not imply that God chose it for us.

God made the Angels directly. They didn't do anything that God didn't make them to do. And then he punished them for it. At the risk of losing cred ability and sounding Satanic;
It almost makes Satan into a tragic hero of some kind. Doing God's work and getting zero credit... only fear and hate.

Obviously this is wrong because it clearly says that God made satan with the seal of perfection and yet he still chose to do evil. That does not make him a hero at all, but the rebellious one.

Well I'm not really trying to make a point about good or bad. Just that there is no free will from a Biblical standpoint. And I think that Lucifer and Eve are the easiest examples for everyone to grasp. I remember wrapping my head around the Eve dilemma in Sunday School when I was like 13.
Those are also my biggest sins BTW.

Since I can explain those away as I did above, I don't think your point is made.

God wants us to come to him WILLINGLY - He doesn't want mindless, forced slaves, but loving individuals that have chosen their Lord over temptation and sin.

The first creations were the opposite.

I disagree.



In the end, I can see that if God could see the infinite possible choices that we have and what each and every outcome is, then free will is still possible because God does not force a choice on you and sees everything.

OK well here's the thing.
according to Genesis, god created humans without the knowledge of Good and Evil. They didn't have a choice until that naughty Satan chap got them to eat the fruit.
Since the first thing they do is cover up their naughty bits, we have to assume that they wouldn't have known about sex before that.
So god's plan would appear to be that there should only be two people. Though he made them fertile, but just expected them not to learn about all that sort of stuff. If, of course, he really wanted them to have offspring, then it was cheatng to tell them not to eat the fruit.

Man, have you got some ideas. The Bible does not say that they did not have the knowledge of good and evil when they were created but that when they ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil they would die. The reason is that God made them with the capacity for good and evil, but until they did something in disobedience they would have no knowledge of evil. And when they did they became ashamed, and being the first people to ever be ashamed, they looked at each other and then decided to cover their parts. They knew about sex and God specifically told them to be fruitful and multiple.



Love in Christ,
JH

[Neoteny]

Sex isn't bad, animals do it all the time. Evil aspects of human nature make it taboo in society.

[PLAYER57832]

@jesterhawk

If god knows everything that is going to unfold in someone's life, every choice a person is going to make, before it happens, this means that there is only one path a person can take. To the person it may seem like they are choosing to eat the donuts instead of the fruit, but god already knew they were going to go for the donuts. If they had eaten the fruit, god's knowledge would have been wrong (and therefor not knowledge) and god would be fallible.

You can't have both, it's logically impossible for god to be perfectly omniscient and for free will to exist.

Just because God knows everything you will do does not mean that he didn't give you control over your life which is the essence of free will. Only if he interfered with your control over your life would his omniscience come into question.

JH

Aaaand.... the guy with the beak and the funny hat doesn't get it.

Let me explain it again.

Take 'knowledge'. Knowledge, in order to be knowledge, has to be true, otherwise it's just a hunch, a supposition or a guess.
Now take 'choice'. 'Choice' implies that there are several options, at least two and possibly more.
But if god knows what a person is going to do before the person does it there are no other options than the one god knew the person would go for, all other "choices" the person may think they have are, in fact, nonexistent. This is because knowledge has to be true.
Choices and free will are incompatible with god knowing how the future will unfold, it's a logical impossibility on par with having something and its opposite at the same time. Like you can't look at the sky and see it being overcast as well as unclouded at the same time.

This is true for human logic, our understanding. God is plain and simply outside our understanding. For us to understand God and all fully is like trying to explain trigonometry or Calculus to a normal 2 year old. (Shoot-- its like trying to explain almost anything to an average 2 year old! , as any parent knows)

I choose to believe that I have free will, that I have some control over my decisions, my life. I believe God knows all in advance, but I do not believe that God dictates what I do. I believe he can guide and suggest if I allow it, but that it is always up to me to decide.

You make real points. I am not dismissing them. But, there just is no real answer for human logic. Sometimes "its magic" really is the only answer. That's why it is belief, not science fact.

[jonesthecurl]

But we are told in these fora repeatedly that the whole god/jesus thing is obvious, common sense, logical, revealed and undisputable truth there for everyone to see.
It seems that when it is pointed out that they are not, the response is "it's faith, based on feelings, not science, based on logic".
That's kinda the point we were making...

[MeDeFe]

Take 'knowledge'. Knowledge, in order to be knowledge, has to be true, otherwise it's just a hunch, a supposition or a guess.
Now take 'choice'. 'Choice' implies that there are several options, at least two and possibly more.
But if god knows what a person is going to do before the person does it there are no other options than the one god knew the person would go for, all other "choices" the person may think they have are, in fact, nonexistent. This is because knowledge has to be true.
Choices and free will are incompatible with god knowing how the future will unfold, it's a logical impossibility on par with having something and its opposite at the same time. Like you can't look at the sky and see it being overcast as well as unclouded at the same time.

I see your point. However, you still had the choice. Yes, you took the one path that God, who knew the future, knew you were going to take, but that does not mean that YOU didn't have a choice. It just means that God knew about it.

And what if, and we do not know this because we are not God and you are presenting an argument from God's point of view, God can not only see the future, but sees multiple futures. What if every decision in time has an infinite amount of choices and until we make the choice the path is not set. God, being God and completely omniscient, can see not only the path you WILL take, but every other possible path that you CAN take and all of their effects on others and so forth. Then God in his infinite wisdom will, and he does, attempt to persuade you to the right path. He will not stomp on your choice, but he will do his best to let you know which path is the best. Since we do not know the capacity of God even though the Bible declares he is infinite in knowledge, it is possible that this is the case making him the knower of all things including knowledge and yet still giving us choice to decide the path of our lives.

If god sees multiple possible futures god does not know which one will occur. He can see any number of hypothetical futures, but if god knows which one will occur you have no choice but must do what god knows you will do. It's determinism at its finest, nothing has to be forced, god doesn't have to exert any control, god doesn't have to preordain anything, merely his knowing what the future will be makes it so there is only one path to take. (Yeah, knowledge is a bitch like that.)

God's perfect omniscience means choices are an illusion and there is only one possible future. Free will means there are real choices we can make and as a result the future is uncertain. It's impossible to have both because their logical extensions are each other's opposites.

This applies to your post as well, player. Saying that god doesn't follow human logic is an easy way out, but then please explain how god can have something and its opposite at the same time in the same place.

[daddy1gringo]

@jesterhawk

If god knows everything that is going to unfold in someone's life, every choice a person is going to make, before it happens, this means that there is only one path a person can take. To the person it may seem like they are choosing to eat the donuts instead of the fruit, but god already knew they were going to go for the donuts. If they had eaten the fruit, god's knowledge would have been wrong (and therefor not knowledge) and god would be fallible.

You can't have both, it's logically impossible for god to be perfectly omniscient and for free will to exist.

MeDeFe, we have been over and over this. You insist that it is proof of the impossibility of the existence of a God who at the same time gives us free will, and is omniscient, omnipotent and good, that you can't conceive of the coexistence based on our human minds and consciousness. God's mind is complex enough that he created all of ours, and he created things like the concepts of time and space, so he lives outside of them. Judging what is possible for God based on our 4-dimensional experience is like trying to referee a basketball game when you have no idea of the rules, or to judge a court case when you know neither the laws nor the evidence.

Various people have come up with their models to describe how these things work together using things with which we are familiar, like my "microsoft spreadsheet" analogy, but they are limited by having to be done in terms of things which are not God. If you insist that every detail must be explained by something within that metaphor and your earthly experience, then you are committing a logical fallacy. You are saying "I will only consider believing in God if He is not really God: if he can be reduced to fit in my little nutshell."

A famous atheist, (I think it was either Bertrand Russell, G.B. Shaw, or Aldous Huxley, I'm pretty sure it was someone more recent than Voltaire and less so than Dawkins), was asked what he would do if after death he found he was wrong and had to stand before God. He answered something like that he would say, "Sorry, I was honestly wrong." I can't answer for his heart, or for yours, but if part of your rationale is this polemic booby-trap, you would not be able to say the same. Constructing your standards concerning something you don’t want to believe such that the only way you will believe it is true is if it is proven false is not honest. My point is not to try to threaten you with hell, but to warn you of something about which you are obviously more concerned: coming to an illogical conclusion.

[PLAYER57832]

But we are told in these fora repeatedly that the whole god/jesus thing is obvious, common sense, logical, revealed and undisputable truth there for everyone to see.

Yes... and no.

I know you have kids, so I will give another (admittedly imperfect) analogy. Ever try to convince your children of anything when they were young? Sometimes you can, but then there are the times when they stick out their lip, get that glare on their face and ... it is past time to reason.

Or, for a broader example, ever puzzle over a problem, have people try to explain, STILL not understand... then "poof!" you find the key that helps you understand. Then you sit back and say "gee... why didn't I get it all along?"

I think the real question you ask is why would God not reveal himself to ME if he were truly loving, truly the compassionate God, etc. we all claim he is. The real answer there, in part, requires getting into some pretty personal stuff. The more basic answer is "we just don't know .. we can only believe and try to share our beliefs".

EDIT: another way to approach it would be to say that we believe the truth IS there for you to see, but you have to be willing/want to see it. There is something inside yourself right now that prevents you from taking that step. We can try to get around it, convince you otherwise. However, most of us (and this is a point of contention in Christianity) feel it is beyond us to do that.

It seems that when it is pointed out that they are not, the response is "it's faith, based on feelings, not science, based on logic".
That's kinda the point we were making...

It is a valid point. In may case, it is partially just simplification. I do believe there is logic to my beliefs, but it is not the kind of logic or experience that is easy to just relay to someone else. Partially, it is very personal. Partly, it is stuff that is just plain hard to describe.

[MeDeFe]

d1g

First of all, this problem I'm pointing out says nothing about god's goodness or omnipotence.

Calling it "polemic" is a bit mean, all I do is draw logical conclusions, namely that you get A and ~A at the same time. I have been thinking a little about your spreadsheet analogy, and have come to the conclusion that it really does nothing to explain how god's omniscience and our free will are compatible. Putting god outside our universe does nothing to mitigate the fact that an omniscient god knows how any given person will act at any given time.