The Biggest Tax Hike in History

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Nobunaga
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The Biggest Tax Hike in History

Post by Nobunaga »

... and nobody's paying attention.

... The Wall Street Journal has a great artcle today on a bill going before Congress, a bill huge in its consequences but yet receiving very little air play... go figure.

http://www.aier.org/research/commentari ... -consumers

... Some snapshots:

Despite House Energy and Commerce Chairman Henry Waxman's many payoffs to Members, rural and Blue Dog Democrats remain wary of voting for a bill that will impose crushing costs on their home-district businesses and consumers

The biggest doozy in the CBO analysis was its extraordinary decision to look only at the day-to-day costs of operating a trading program, rather than the wider consequences energy restriction would have on the economy. The CBO acknowledges this in a footnote: "The resource cost does not indicate the potential decrease in gross domestic product (GDP) that could result from the cap."


...

The hit to GDP is the real threat in this bill. The whole point of cap and trade is to hike the price of electricity and gas so that Americans will use less. These higher prices will show up not just in electricity bills or at the gas station but in every manufactured good, from food to cars. Consumers will cut back on spending, which in turn will cut back on production, which results in fewer jobs created or higher unemployment. Some companies will instead move their operations overseas, with the same result.
...

Under this more comprehensive scenario, it found Waxman-Markey would cost the economy $161 billion in 2020, which is $1,870 for a family of four. As the bill's restrictions kick in, that number rises to $6,800 for a family of four by 2035.

...

Low-income Americans, who devote more of their disposable income to energy, have more to lose than high-income families.

...

Even as Democrats have promised that this cap-and-trade legislation won't pinch wallets, behind the scenes they've acknowledged the energy price tsunami that is coming. During the brief few days in which the bill was debated in the House Energy Committee, Republicans offered three amendments: one to suspend the program if gas hit $5 a gallon; one to suspend the program if electricity prices rose 10% over 2009; and one to suspend the program if unemployment rates hit 15%. Democrats defeated all of them.

...

... It will be the biggest tax in American history, spread across every class of America...

... If you think this is about going green and helping the environment, you are sorely mistaken. Billions are to be made in the brokerage of carbon credits (I'll avoid the Al Gore brokerage connection here), a brokerage that cannot exist without the passage of this bill.

... Americans are idiots, on the whole, to let this manner of abuse move forward without screaming. They'll march in the streets to save a newt, or to save an old building from being torn down, but when the screws are put to their kids to the tune of several thousands of dollars a year for the forseeable future... not a peep.

... Lack of education... too much American Idol (?)

...


... Also, a detailed cost analysis of projected increases in various fuels based on the "value" of carbon to be traded.

http://www.aier.org/research/commentari ... -consumers

...
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Re: The Biggest Tax Hike in History

Post by thegreekdog »

This could be extremely bad - not just in the long-term. And by bad, I mean bad for me. And I don't like bad for me stuff.
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Re: The Biggest Tax Hike in History

Post by Nobunaga »

... This just came out on Drudge.


Former Vice President Al Gore canceled plans to fly to Washington for a news conference with House Speaker Nancy Pelosi on Thursday, and instead was working the phones from Tennessee to help push a landmark climate bill to passage.


Friday's vote on the measure is expected to be close, but multiple sources on both sides of the aisle say they?re confident that the bill will pass — with some Republican votes — following a deal between House Energy and Commerce Committee Chairman Henry Waxman and Agriculture Committee Chairman Collin Peterson.


"It's a question of what was energy efficient for the vice president," Pelosi said of the decision to keep Gore in Tennessee. "We were narrowing the list of the undecideds. We had a great narrowing of the undecideds."


The speaker, President Barack Obama and White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel were all telephoning undecided or wavering House members in both parties.


As part of their efforts, Obama added a last-minute Rose Garden event in which he was to make "brief remarks on the importance of passing a historic energy bill that will create new jobs and reduce our dependence on foreign oil."


The American Clean Energy and Security Act, better known as the Waxman-Markey bill, would cut greenhouse-gas while promoting renewable energy and energy efficiency.


The measure, which is likely to have a tough go in the Senate, is a linchpin of Obama's first-year agenda. A victory would give the White House momentum going into a vote on health care later this summer.


Pelosi has said she is going forward with plans for a vote on Friday, because that's the way to lock in support. But she has not committed to a vote then if her count is still short.


Gore, who has continued to make the climate crisis his signature issue, was to hold a press availability with House leaders and committee chairs at 2 p.m. in the Rayburn Room of the Capitol.


The speaker's office sent this notification to reporters Thursday morning:


"As the list of undecided Members narrowed, the Speaker thought it was unnecessary to impose on the Vice President's schedule to travel to Washington, and instead to continue coordinating efforts from Tennessee," spokesman Drew Hammill said in an e-mail.


Gore, who was coming at the invitation of the speaker, was going to make the case for strong action one of the President's top priorities — energy and global warming — without delay. He supports the House bill as the way to cut pollution, make dramatic increases in using energy efficiently, and increase use of renewable energy, which will boost jobs and improve our national security.


Earlier this week, Gore held a conference call to mobilize more than 10,000 of his Repower America grassroots activists.


... God help us.

...
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Re: The Biggest Tax Hike in History

Post by Nobunaga »

... I am waiting for somebody here to defend the cost of this thing, knowing (if you've been paying attention) how corrupted the framework for this tax is going to be set up, how many jobs it's going to kill, and how it's going to hurt every American, not just those cigar-smokng evil rich b*stards.

... Player? Tonka? Pimp? ... Anybody? :roll:

...
bedub1
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Re: The Biggest Tax Hike in History

Post by bedub1 »

See...this is just what I was talking about. So lets all pretend global warming exists. How far are you willing to go? I'm not willing to go this far...i think this is stupid. But apparently there are lots of people out there that think this is just great, grand, and wonderful. NO YELLING ON THE BUS!
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Re: The Biggest Tax Hike in History

Post by got tonkaed »

Nobunaga wrote:... I am waiting for somebody here to defend the cost of this thing, knowing (if you've been paying attention) how corrupted the framework for this tax is going to be set up, how many jobs it's going to kill, and how it's going to hurt every American, not just those cigar-smokng evil rich b*stards.

... Player? Tonka? Pimp? ... Anybody? :roll:

...


Id defend it if I thought it should be defended as it were.
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Re: The Biggest Tax Hike in History

Post by Neoteny »

Also, I like a good cigar now and then.
Napoleon Ier wrote:You people need to grow up to be honest.
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Re: The Biggest Tax Hike in History

Post by Nobunaga »

got tonkaed wrote:
Nobunaga wrote:... I am waiting for somebody here to defend the cost of this thing, knowing (if you've been paying attention) how corrupted the framework for this tax is going to be set up, how many jobs it's going to kill, and how it's going to hurt every American, not just those cigar-smokng evil rich b*stards.

... Player? Tonka? Pimp? ... Anybody? :roll:

...


Id defend it if I thought it should be defended as it were.


... Dodge. Coward.

...
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Re: The Biggest Tax Hike in History

Post by GENERAL STONEHAM »

The message would be clearer, if it didn't come from some Flat Earth poster, who thinks that Global Warming is a fraud.

I find it quite ridiculous, that these so-called Fiscal Conservatives kept their traps shut during 8 years of Bush/Cheney with 6 years of Republican domination in Congress.

Now that we are in a serious crisis, these Neo-Cons are playing partisan games.

Instead of coming up with their own economic plan, they have become a party of NO!
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Re: The Biggest Tax Hike in History

Post by thegreekdog »

GENERAL STONEHAM wrote:The message would be clearer, if it didn't come from some Flat Earth poster, who thinks that Global Warming is a fraud.

I find it quite ridiculous, that these so-called Fiscal Conservatives kept their traps shut during 8 years of Bush/Cheney with 6 years of Republican domination in Congress.

Now that we are in a serious crisis, these Neo-Cons are playing partisan games.

Instead of coming up with their own economic plan, they have become a party of NO!


So, you support the plan for two reasons, both of which are flawed and completely and utterly invalid as not addressing the actual bill.

Reason One: The fiscal conservatives kept their traps shut during the 8 years of Bush/Cheney.

Reason Two: The Neo-Cons are playing a partisan game.
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Re: The Biggest Tax Hike in History

Post by got tonkaed »

Nobunaga wrote:
got tonkaed wrote:
Nobunaga wrote:... I am waiting for somebody here to defend the cost of this thing, knowing (if you've been paying attention) how corrupted the framework for this tax is going to be set up, how many jobs it's going to kill, and how it's going to hurt every American, not just those cigar-smokng evil rich b*stards.

... Player? Tonka? Pimp? ... Anybody? :roll:

...


Id defend it if I thought it should be defended as it were.


... Dodge. Coward.

...



its not a good bill, nor are the CBO projections that attempt to make it justifiable. Nor is the way they are trying to get it passed reasonable. Where exactly am i suppose to make a magic defense of it?
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Re: The Biggest Tax Hike in History

Post by GENERAL STONEHAM »

I didn't say I was for the Democratic plan. It's actually a HUGE tax cut. You guys just don't get it do you?

I'd rather see the fiscal stimulus going directly to the taxpayers, instead of bailing out banks, financial institutions, automakers and other assholes who got us into this trouble originally.

Give ALL the stimulus money to the average taxpayer and let them decide [through their spending] who stays in business and who shall fail.
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Re: The Biggest Tax Hike in History

Post by got tonkaed »

GENERAL STONEHAM wrote:I didn't say I was for the Democratic plan. It's actually a HUGE tax cut. You guys just don't get it do you?

I'd rather see the fiscal stimulus going directly to the taxpayers, instead of bailing out banks, financial institutions, automakers and other assholes who got us into this trouble originally.

Give ALL the stimulus money to the average taxpayer and let them decide [through their spending] who stays in business and who shall fail.


im not sure this thread is talking about what you think its talking about.
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Re: The Biggest Tax Hike in History

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... It's to be expected. "Flat-Earther" is a Lib term they came up with in attempt to humiliate and embarrass anybody who actually investigates the money connections behind their flawed science (we’re about to see it play out), and anybody who mentions the 34,000 scientists in opposition to their religion… I mean, theory. Get it? Flat earth, lack of knowledge, behind the times, ignorant hick, etc…

… But hey, at least this follower has his reasons, as flawed as they are. He didn’t just dodge and run. Though I would bet you a paycheck this guy doesn’t pay taxes or own a home in the US. If he does, and still supports cap n’ trade, he constitutes the ignorant among us.

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Re: The Biggest Tax Hike in History

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got tonkaed wrote:
GENERAL STONEHAM wrote:I didn't say I was for the Democratic plan. It's actually a HUGE tax cut. You guys just don't get it do you?

I'd rather see the fiscal stimulus going directly to the taxpayers, instead of bailing out banks, financial institutions, automakers and other assholes who got us into this trouble originally.

Give ALL the stimulus money to the average taxpayer and let them decide [through their spending] who stays in business and who shall fail.


im not sure this thread is talking about what you think its talking about.


... Haha! Totally misunderstood you. You have my abject apologies. Thought you were insinuating it required no defense, as good as it is.

...
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Re: The Biggest Tax Hike in History

Post by Neoteny »

We've had a discussion on those scientists before.
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Re: The Biggest Tax Hike in History

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GENERAL STONEHAM wrote:I didn't say I was for the Democratic plan. It's actually a HUGE tax cut. You guys just don't get it do you?

I'd rather see the fiscal stimulus going directly to the taxpayers, instead of bailing out banks, financial institutions, automakers and other assholes who got us into this trouble originally.

Give ALL the stimulus money to the average taxpayer and let them decide [through their spending] who stays in business and who shall fail.


... Obviously this flat-earther doesn't get it. Eplain how Cap n' Trade is a tax cut, please. Honestly, Wall Street Journal and the Economist made no mention of this tax cut. I'm all ears, sir.

...
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Re: The Biggest Tax Hike in History

Post by got tonkaed »

Nobunaga wrote:
got tonkaed wrote:
GENERAL STONEHAM wrote:I didn't say I was for the Democratic plan. It's actually a HUGE tax cut. You guys just don't get it do you?

I'd rather see the fiscal stimulus going directly to the taxpayers, instead of bailing out banks, financial institutions, automakers and other assholes who got us into this trouble originally.

Give ALL the stimulus money to the average taxpayer and let them decide [through their spending] who stays in business and who shall fail.


im not sure this thread is talking about what you think its talking about.


... Haha! Totally misunderstood you. You have my abject apologies. Thought you were insinuating it required no defense, as good as it is.

...


Ha. I was like man, tell me how you really feel when i agree with you.

Its a tricky spot, this proposal seems to reek of a lot of bad politicking, but I am not exactly sure of what the alternative is if the other side dont get their chance to put it out there. Obviously ideologically id like to say that the opposition has shorted the issue at times, but if this is the price tag of cap and trade we are in pretty crummy straits either way.
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Re: The Biggest Tax Hike in History

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Neoteny wrote:We've had a discussion on those scientists before.


... Yeah, and if memory serves you debunked all 34,000. :roll:

... Global warming is fact and caused by carbon we produce - sure, why not?

... Any opinion on the bill, Neo? Your posts tend to be both measured and informed. I would like to hear your opinion.

...
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Re: The Biggest Tax Hike in History

Post by Neoteny »

Damn straight I did. And I try to avoid economics. It's always way over my head.
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Re: The Biggest Tax Hike in History

Post by GENERAL STONEHAM »

Nobunaga wrote:... It's to be expected. "Flat-Earther" is a Lib term they came up with in attempt to humiliate and embarrass anybody who actually investigates the money connections behind their flawed science (we’re about to see it play out), and anybody who mentions the 34,000 scientists in opposition to their religion… I mean, theory. Get it? Flat earth, lack of knowledge, behind the times, ignorant hick, etc…

… But hey, at least this follower has his reasons, as flawed as they are. He didn’t just dodge and run. Though I would bet you a paycheck this guy doesn’t pay taxes or own a home in the US. If he does, and still supports cap n’ trade, he constitutes the ignorant among us.




Yes I do own my own home. Four bedrooms and two and half baths. My property taxes are high, due to my location.

Cap n Trade ain't going to happen. Yeah, I know it's been mentioned, but too many Dems and Repubs are in the pocket of the Coal Industry, so don't get so excited my rightwing Vodoo Economic Major.
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Re: The Biggest Tax Hike in History

Post by thegreekdog »

I think the general is suffering from a psychotic break. It must stem from staring at his avatar too much.
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Re: The Biggest Tax Hike in History

Post by got tonkaed »

As it were it might happen pretty quickly.
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Re: The Biggest Tax Hike in History

Post by GENERAL STONEHAM »

Nobunaga wrote:
Neoteny wrote:We've had a discussion on those scientists before.


... Yeah, and if memory serves you debunked all 34,000. :roll:

... Global warming is fact and caused by carbon we produce - sure, why not?

... Any opinion on the bill, Neo? Your posts tend to be both measured and informed. I would like to hear your opinion.

...


Pumping millions of tons of carbon dioxide will cause global warming and do our oceans great harm. There have been many studies [scientific studies not Coal Company studies] that every time carbon dioxide levels rise significantly, global warming runs amok.

But I shouldn't discuss these scientific facts with Flat Earthers. Now go back and listen to your guru "Rush Limbaugh" and get some presciption drugs from him, it'll kill your pain and numb your brain from trying to determine fact from fiction.
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Re: The Biggest Tax Hike in History

Post by Nobunaga »

... Speed-Readers called in to read both the Nationalized health Care bill as well as the Cap n' Trade Bill.

... Like the "Stimulus", our reps cannot be bothered to read this stuff before voting... because it's got to be done NOW! RIGHT FREAKIN' NOW! NO TIME TO WASTE YOU FLAT-EARTH MORONS - NOW! NOT NEXT WEEK BUT NOW!!

... Because obviously we'll all die painful deaths if this thing doesn't get passed before the weekend.

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/06/24 ... 0850.shtml
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