Do you own a gun?

[joecoolfrog]

I live in London.

In the past 6 months within 100 yards of my front door, 6 people have been stabbed, one bloke was beaten to death by a gang of 3 teenagers. My next door neighbour but one has been burgled twice. Once she woke up and found the guy standing over her speaking to her in a foreign language.

I don't own a gun
When I go out, i don't carry a knife.
I don't have a baseball bat (or similar defence item) in my bedroom.

I'm street wise and have sensible amounts of door and window locks to keep out burglars. This is sufficient to protect yourself from criminals.

Sounds like Collier Row has got better since the days I knew it well

[MaleAlphaThree]

They do say that most people that carry guns end up getting their own weapons used against them. It's a pretty scary thought.

[captain.crazy]

They do say that most people that carry guns end up getting their own weapons used against them. It's a pretty scary thought.

Really? Post a link to credible sources?

[jonesthecurl]

I don't know about that specifically.

And please note that I am not a gun-control fanatic, despite being a brit and thus from a society where guns are not normal.

But here's an interesting thing:

http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/160/10/929.

It's quite a technical piece of statistical analysis, but here's an important bit:

Data from a US mortality follow-back survey were analyzed to determine whether having a firearm in the home increases the risk of a violent death in the home and whether risk varies by storage practice, type of gun, or number of guns in the home. Those persons with guns in the home were at greater risk than those without guns in the home of dying from a homicide in the home

Suicide rates are also higher in homes with guns (obviously, gun-related suicides are higher, duh, but total suicides are higher too).

[captain.crazy]

I don't know about that specifically.

And please note that I am not a gun-control fanatic, despite being a brit and thus from a society where guns are not normal.

But here's an interesting thing:

http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/160/10/929.

It's quite a technical piece of statistical analysis, but here's an important bit:

Data from a US mortality follow-back survey were analyzed to determine whether having a firearm in the home increases the risk of a violent death in the home and whether risk varies by storage practice, type of gun, or number of guns in the home. Those persons with guns in the home were at greater risk than those without guns in the home of dying from a homicide in the home

Suicide rates are also higher in homes with guns (obviously, gun-related suicides are higher, duh, but total suicides are higher too).

ahem:

In 2006,
for ages 10 - 14: [Homicide Firearm Deaths 175] In at second place following [Unintentional MV Traffic 703]
for ages 10 - 14: [Suicide Firearm 62 ] In at seventh place following [Suicide Suffocation 137 ]

I think that you have to look at the reasons that people are so messed up. I think that you should look more closely at the rampant prescription drug use in our children. People are too busy to discipline their kids, there are too many toxins in our food and water (aspartame for example, a known toxin)

Probably the better thing to do would be to teach kids what happens when you use a gun. I have taken my son shooting, he has hunted and killed. He knows the score. Stop being afraid of the gun and learn to respect it. The Japanese are the same way when it comes to the sword. these aren't toys!

[Juan_Bottom]

The Japanese are the same way when it comes to the sword.

[captain.crazy]

The Japanese are the same way when it comes to the sword.

What's so funny? They respect the Sword!

[Juan_Bottom]

The Japanese are the same way when it comes to the sword.

What's so funny? They respect the Sword!

Captain... I don't know how to say this exactly without crushing your poor heart.
Japan does not = Naruto.
People don't walk around Japan today carrying swords. The Samuri are gone... Ninja's have been extinct for hundreds of years....

[Neoteny]

The Japanese are the same way when it comes to the sword.

What's so funny? They respect the Sword!

Captain... I don't know how to say this exactly without crushing your poor heart.
Japan does not = Naruto.
People don't walk around Japan today carrying swords. The Samuri are gone... Ninja's have been extinct for hundreds of years....

Lies and Trickery!

[captain.crazy]

The Japanese are the same way when it comes to the sword.

What's so funny? They respect the Sword!

Captain... I don't know how to say this exactly without crushing your poor heart.
Japan does not = Naruto.
People don't walk around Japan today carrying swords. The Samuri are gone... Ninja's have been extinct for hundreds of years....

Dude! I fucking know that! But they still maintain the sword as a part of their heritage, and people still train in the martial arts with them. But if you see one, you don't just pick it up and start swinging it around, nor do you give it to a dumb ass kid that doesn't know how to even hold one.

[jonesthecurl]

I don't know about that specifically.

And please note that I am not a gun-control fanatic, despite being a brit and thus from a society where guns are not normal.

But here's an interesting thing:

http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/160/10/929.

It's quite a technical piece of statistical analysis, but here's an important bit:

Data from a US mortality follow-back survey were analyzed to determine whether having a firearm in the home increases the risk of a violent death in the home and whether risk varies by storage practice, type of gun, or number of guns in the home. Those persons with guns in the home were at greater risk than those without guns in the home of dying from a homicide in the home

Suicide rates are also higher in homes with guns (obviously, gun-related suicides are higher, duh, but total suicides are higher too).

ahem:

In 2006,
for ages 10 - 14: [Homicide Firearm Deaths 175] In at second place following [Unintentional MV Traffic 703]
for ages 10 - 14: [Suicide Firearm 62 ] In at seventh place following [Suicide Suffocation 137 ]

I think that you have to look at the reasons that people are so messed up. I think that you should look more closely at the rampant prescription drug use in our children. People are too busy to discipline their kids, there are too many toxins in our food and water (aspartame for example, a known toxin)

Probably the better thing to do would be to teach kids what happens when you use a gun. I have taken my son shooting, he has hunted and killed. He knows the score. Stop being afraid of the gun and learn to respect it. The Japanese are the same way when it comes to the sword. these aren't toys!

Still:
If you have a gun in your house you are more likely to be murdered with a gun than if you don't.
If you have a gun in your house, deliberate suicide by a member of the household is more likely than if you don't.

Yes too much ritalin is prescribed, yes there should be less aspartame in drinks, yes kids should be educated that guns hurt and kill.


Still:
If you have a gun in your house you are more likely to be murdered with a gun than if you don't.
If you have a gun in your house, deliberate suicide by a member of the household is more likely than if you don't.

[Neoteny]

Keep it up, he'll figure it out soon.

[jonesthecurl]

Does the budgie learn to say "BANG"?

[captain.crazy]

[quote="jonesthecurl"
Still:
If you have a gun in your house you are more likely to be murdered with a gun than if you don't.
If you have a gun in your house, deliberate suicide by a member of the household is more likely than if you don't.
[/quote]

If not a gun, then a knife, crow bar or baseball bat. Crime is crime... If someone wants to try and murder you, they will. If you want to kill yourself, you obviously don't need a gun (for ages 10 - 14: [Suicide Firearm 62 ] In at seventh place following [Suicide Suffocation 137 ]) Lets outlaw pillows!

[MaleAlphaThree]

Dude! I fucking know that! But they still maintain the sword as a part of their heritage, and people still train in the martial arts with them. But if you see one, you don't just pick it up and start swinging it around, nor do you give it to a dumb ass kid that doesn't know how to even hold one.

Yeah, those Japanese really have that responsibility thing down.

Unlike in the US, where if someone sees a gun, they pick it up and empty the clip before you can say, "Second Amendment Rights".

[Juan_Bottom]

Lies and Trickery!

Hmmm... well it is what Ninjas are known for...

Dude! I fucking know that! But they still maintain the sword as a part of their heritage, and people still train in the martial arts with them. But if you see one, you don't just pick it up and start swinging it around, nor do you give it to a dumb ass kid that doesn't know how to even hold one.

Oh.... well we still maintain paddleboats as part of our heritage... and people do respect those too...

Dude! I fucking know that! But they still maintain the sword as a part of their heritage, and people still train in the martial arts with them. But if you see one, you don't just pick it up and start swinging it around, nor do you give it to a dumb ass kid that doesn't know how to even hold one.

Yeah, those Japanese really have that responsibility thing down.

Unlike in the US, where if someone sees a gun, they pick it up and empty the clip before you can say, "Second Amendment Rights".

[jonesthecurl]

[quote="jonesthecurl"
Still:
If you have a gun in your house you are more likely to be murdered with a gun than if you don't.
If you have a gun in your house, deliberate suicide by a member of the household is more likely than if you don't.

If not a gun, then a knife, crow bar or baseball bat. Crime is crime... If someone wants to try and murder you, they will. If you want to kill yourself, you obviously don't need a gun (for ages 10 - 14: [Suicide Firearm 62 ] In at seventh place following [Suicide Suffocation 137 ]) Lets outlaw pillows! [/quote]

no.
Obviously people can be killed with other things, and commit suicide with other things, but the statistics do not say that households with pillows in are more likely to have suicides.

Still:
If you have a gun in your house you are more likely to be murdered with a gun than if you don't.
If you have a gun in your house, deliberate suicide by a member of the household is more likely than if you don't.

[captain.crazy]

Still:
If you have a gun in your house you are more likely to be murdered with a gun than if you don't.
If you have a gun in your house, deliberate suicide by a member of the household is more likely than if you don't.

If not a gun, then a knife, crow bar or baseball bat. Crime is crime... If someone wants to try and murder you, they will. If you want to kill yourself, you obviously don't need a gun (for ages 10 - 14: [Suicide Firearm 62 ] In at seventh place following [Suicide Suffocation 137 ]) Lets outlaw pillows!

no.
Obviously people can be killed with other things, and commit suicide with other things, but the statistics do not say that households with pillows in are more likely to have suicides.

Still:
If you have a gun in your house you are more likely to be murdered with a gun than if you don't.
If you have a gun in your house, deliberate suicide by a member of the household is more likely than if you don't.

Can you compare your statement to the likelihood that someone coming into your house with a knife is likely to get his fucking head blown across the street before he gets a chance to kill you with his knife if you don't have a gun in the house?

[azezzo]

The government comment has to do with the main reason people "need their guns." Sure, crime happens, but if we take the guns away, that will go down.

your an idiot for making that statement, states that allow the concealed carry of fire arms have seen their crime rates drop.
The problem with your argument is your only going to be able to take the guns from law abiding citizens, do you really think that the criminals will give up their guns?

[Neoteny]

The government comment has to do with the main reason people "need their guns." Sure, crime happens, but if we take the guns away, that will go down.

your an idiot for making that statement,

You're an idiot for improper word usage.

states that allow the concealed carry of fire arms have seen their crime rates drop.

Nuh-uh.

The problem with your argument is your only going to be able to take the guns from law abiding citizens, do you really think that the criminals will give up their guns?

Yes. Rather, once the guns they have are confiscated or otherwise lost to them, they will not be able to acquire new ones easily, if at all. The shootings won't magically stop, but they will eventually go down. I promise. From the bottom of my bleeding heart.

[jonesthecurl]

Still:
If you have a gun in your house you are more likely to be murdered with a gun than if you don't.
If you have a gun in your house, deliberate suicide by a member of the household is more likely than if you don't.

If not a gun, then a knife, crow bar or baseball bat. Crime is crime... If someone wants to try and murder you, they will. If you want to kill yourself, you obviously don't need a gun (for ages 10 - 14: [Suicide Firearm 62 ] In at seventh place following [Suicide Suffocation 137 ]) Lets outlaw pillows!

no.
Obviously people can be killed with other things, and commit suicide with other things, but the statistics do not say that households with pillows in are more likely to have suicides.

Still:
If you have a gun in your house you are more likely to be murdered with a gun than if you don't.
If you have a gun in your house, deliberate suicide by a member of the household is more likely than if you don't.

Can you compare your statement to the likelihood that someone coming into your house with a knife is likely to get his fucking head blown across the street before he gets a chance to kill you with his knife if you don't have a gun in the house?

This obviously turns out not to be the case, or the guys with the guns wouldn't be being murdered.
I believe the gun with which the householder is being murdered is often his own gun.

[captain.crazy]

This obviously turns out not to be the case, or the guys with the guns wouldn't be being murdered.
I believe the gun with which the householder is being murdered is often his own gun.

Sure, I get that. But I want you to produce stats that show how many people that are attacked in their homes with any king of weapon, actually have their situations turn out favorable because they were able to blow the head off the mother fucker that came into their house and tried to kill them.

Of course if you have a gun in your house, you are more likely to be shot with it than if you do not. The question is, if you are a gun owner, and are not afraid to use it, what are the chances that you will survive a murdering son of a bitch invading your home. Enough of the half asses statistics already. Show me the numbers that say that people who did not have a gun in their house were less likely to be murdered than people who did have a gun in their house.

[Pedronicus]

I live in London.

In the past 6 months within 100 yards of my front door, 6 people have been stabbed, one bloke was beaten to death by a gang of 3 teenagers. My next door neighbour but one has been burgled twice. Once she woke up and found the guy standing over her speaking to her in a foreign language.

I don't own a gun
When I go out, i don't carry a knife.
I don't have a baseball bat (or similar defence item) in my bedroom.

I'm street wise and have sensible amounts of door and window locks to keep out burglars. This is sufficient to protect yourself from criminals.

I grew up in Detroit. I, too, am street wise. Its better to have a gun and not need it, than it is to need it and not have it. Locks on windows and doors are good while you are inside. but when you go out, it could be you being stabbed to death on the street. Imagine how you could have assisted the poor bastard if you had come upon the crime able to defend the person being assaulted?

Let me get this straight - you think that if i had a gun, i could of defended the guy getting beaten up? I suppose you think that I should of shot and killed the three guys attacking him?
I'm not a judge and I'm not an executioner. If I walk along and see a fight, who's to say who started it? and if they are all rolling around on the floor, I'm supposed to be able to shoot at the mass of bodies and get the right guy?

If the guy getting beaten up just mouthed off to these guys, and then it turns out that they were a lot harder than the other guy, and then he later died of his injuries in hospital (which he did)
How am I supposed to be able to work all this out after just stumbling upon a fight, at night, in the street.

By your theory: By carrying a gun, I've just committed murder and will probably have trouble in court explaining my actions.

[captain.crazy]

I live in London.

In the past 6 months within 100 yards of my front door, 6 people have been stabbed, one bloke was beaten to death by a gang of 3 teenagers. My next door neighbour but one has been burgled twice. Once she woke up and found the guy standing over her speaking to her in a foreign language.

I don't own a gun
When I go out, i don't carry a knife.
I don't have a baseball bat (or similar defence item) in my bedroom.

I'm street wise and have sensible amounts of door and window locks to keep out burglars. This is sufficient to protect yourself from criminals.

I grew up in Detroit. I, too, am street wise. Its better to have a gun and not need it, than it is to need it and not have it. Locks on windows and doors are good while you are inside. but when you go out, it could be you being stabbed to death on the street. Imagine how you could have assisted the poor bastard if you had come upon the crime able to defend the person being assaulted?

Let me get this straight - you think that if i had a gun, i could of defended the guy getting beaten up? I suppose you think that I should of shot and killed the three guys attacking him?
I'm not a judge and I'm not an executioner. If I walk along and see a fight, who's to say who started it? and if they are all rolling around on the floor, I'm supposed to be able to shoot at the mass of bodies and get the right guy?

If the guy getting beaten up just mouthed off to these guys, and then it turns out that they were a lot harder than the other guy, and then he later died of his injuries in hospital (which he did)
How am I supposed to be able to work all this out after just stumbling upon a fight, at night, in the street.

As a citizen, you are supposed to be vigilant in the defense of yourself and others. You should have called out and said something to the guys committing murder in the street, hoping that they would have just left. If they didn't, then you can reasonably defend yourself and the life of another person with deadly force if you think that your live, or someone elses is in danger. If they decided to turn on you, shoot the bastards. You probably only have to shoot one anyway. The other cowards will run.

That's how I would have done it.

[MaleAlphaThree]

Dude! I fucking know that! But they still maintain the sword as a part of their heritage, and people still train in the martial arts with them. But if you see one, you don't just pick it up and start swinging it around, nor do you give it to a dumb ass kid that doesn't know how to even hold one.

Yeah, those Japanese really have that responsibility thing down.

Unlike in the US, where if someone sees a gun, they pick it up and empty the clip before you can say, "Second Amendment Rights".

Warning: Graphic Japanese style Violence.