Hell

by **Mykel** on Thu Apr 20, 2006 6:16 pm

thanks for the clarification on that matter qeee1.

by **battletroop27** on Thu Apr 20, 2006 7:02 pm

here's something to prove god is there. look at the sky. do you see god? if you are sane, you won't. does that mean god is not there? now look at yourself in the mirror. can you see your brain? you can't tell it's there, but it is.

by **qeee1** on Fri Apr 21, 2006 6:21 am

lilwdlnddude wrote:Do you really believe things like the Big Bang theory and evolution?? If they say that humans evolved from primates, then why are there still monkeys jumping around?? Why didn't they evolve with the rest of the monkeys?

Well yeah I kinda do, and so does the vast majority of the scientific world. Seriously it's only a small (really only present in any quantity in the U.S.) outspoken group that deny it, and they rarely have any proof of an alternate theory, but rather just try to sling dirt at the theory of evolution.

Just because we evolved doesn't mean all primates were suddenly wiped out. They still existed and will continue to exist as long as conditions on the planet are favourable to the survival of their species. Our evolution has simply led to a (questionably) superior position in the planet.

lilwdlnddude wrote:And how does some matter coliding (sorry about the spelling) explain how life came to be about.

Through a long complex chain of events... sorry but I'm low on time right now.

lilwdlnddude] But now here is something that I can't even explain. Can you explain the begining of time? I can not. Time was just always there because without time nothing could ever happen. And the thing that I can't explain is that God was always there. He is like time, He has no begining and no end. He just is. And thats what makes God, God. He is just so complex that we cannot explain his greatness. And thats what I would like in a God to. I wouldn't like God to be some ordinary guy who anyone could be. But yeah, I guess thats it for now. This is a very good debate. [/quote]

Maybe but time is observable... God isn't, which brings me to:

[quote+"battletroop27 wrote:here's something to prove god is there. look at the sky. do you see god? if you are sane, you won't. does that mean god is not there? now look at yourself in the mirror. can you see your brain? you can't tell it's there, but it is.

Look at your hand... do you see a talking leprechaun doing battle with a smurf? Well by your logic they still exist. Essentially you're making two unconnected statements and saying A implies B, when the fact that A is true says nothing about B.

What you do show is that just because you can't see something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. In this context you show that I have not proven that God does not exist, which I agree with, like I said, I'm agnostic most days. But at the same time this does not mean I accept God's existance. We can't prove that Smurfs or Leprechauns do not exist, but I don't accept their existance. The responsibility is really on people to prove that things do exist, rather than that they do not, because the latter is more or less impossible to do.

Sorry, I rant, hope I haven't offended anyone but this stuff annoys me.

by **terrafutan** on Fri Apr 21, 2006 7:39 am

qeee1 wrote:Sorry, I rant, hope I haven't offended anyone but this stuff annoys me.

Think it annoys everybody - one thing you shouldn't be allowed to discuss on the internet is religion - just gets everyones blood up

That said, I see no point in not posting as this topic will continue to fly regardless.

So before we start getting into discussions with people too young to buy booze about Occams razor and the Bayesian Inference wrt religion I will requote grim for his wisdom with some highlights.

thegrimsleeper wrote:God did not create Man because he was bored and wanted a good show. Man created God because he was primitive and scared, and he needed a way to explain how everything came to be. Thus the first relilgion was born, and it was a good and necessary touchstone for Early Man. Without it, we would not know civilization or society. With the advent of these, religion became a means by which the State could control man, and terrify him into submission. Thus the idea of hell was born, and the thing which Man created so that he could walk the world unafraid was now the very thing he lived in fear of.

Absolutely perfect description I think.

by **samyrana** on Fri Apr 21, 2006 11:51 am

there is no god and no devil = no hell no paradise, when you die you just die you stop being someone or something

by **Mykel** on Fri Apr 21, 2006 1:24 pm

terrafutan wrote:
So before we start getting into discussions with people too young to buy booze about Occams razor and the Bayesian Inference wrt religion I will requote grim for his wisdom with some highlights.

Ok so Just because one can't buy alcohol there intellect is therefore not advanced enough? That’s makes no sense at all. I know that when I was 14 I started working, saving money and helping pay bills. But just because I was 14 dose that meen I had no idea of the meaning of money? Or hard work?

There are many people that are young and very intelligent.

And just another point, keep in mind that in some countries you can by alcohol at a young age. So dose that mean that the people in countries like that mature faster?

by **rocksolid** on Fri Apr 21, 2006 1:54 pm

terrafutan wrote:So before we start getting into discussions with people too young to buy booze about Occams razor and the Bayesian Inference wrt religion

This implies that since you have now quoted Grim, you're ready to start getting into a discussion with people too young to buy booze about Occam's Razor and the Bayesian Inference. Boo on name-dropping - Occam's Razor is a one-sentence principle that doesn't need to be labelled in a way that suggests it has more weight than it can offer by its own cogency. State it without a trumpet.

Give the kids some credit. They might take you apart and leave you better for it.

by **samyrana** on Sun Apr 23, 2006 2:09 am

and besides the real world is thet you don't need any age to buy booze

at least not in Mexico

P.D. that doesn't mean we are a bunch of drunk guys

by **battletroop27** on Sun May 07, 2006 2:30 am

how did we go from arguing about the theory of life after death to mexico?

by **Blitzkreig** on Sun May 07, 2006 5:11 pm

How much about the universe does the smartest man know, in whole? Maybe .000000000000000 etc 1% Now you're claiming there is no God while you know so little about the universe and it's workings. Are you willing to bet your soul on such little knowledge?

by **AndyDufresne** on Sun May 07, 2006 5:28 pm

**Inter-locks his hands with someone elses while moving his thumbs to either side**

1, 2, 3, 4,

I declare a holy war.

--Andy

by **WintersTwilight** on Mon May 08, 2006 1:44 am

To battletroop27:

4). Do we really have a soul? Or is it just our brain directing our actions? Maybe we just die and we just stay in the ground. No ressurrection or anything.

"If my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain, I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true... and hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms." -Professor Haldane, Possible Worlds, p. 209

To lilwdlnddude:

I think God created us because he wanted to know if something with free will (which God gave us, we don't have to do everything he says) would love him, believe in him, worship him, obey him, and just treat him like a normal friend.

I agree with you that we have free will, but it seems to me that if God is omniscient, then why would He need to do such an experiment? Come to think of it, I guess something must be in order for omniscience to know it to be true. In fact, I do not think that it is possible to correctly state that anything existed before time or that anything can exist after time. To use the words "before" and "after", surely we have already implied that whatever it is that is doing the existing is within some kind of time. Nothing can be before or after time, but time could be within something. Perhaps time is within God. I certainly believe that God is above time in the sense that he is not confined to the laws of time, and omnipresent. (Unless he chooses to be under such laws.) If we could imagine time as a one dimensional line, (such that it has length but no width or depth) then we could possibly imagine eternity as a plane, or even a solid three dimensional figure. But of course I am only theorizing at this point.

To qeee1:

But having a God explains nothing, you still have to ask where did God come from? And if God can simply "exist" for eternity then why can't "matter". I accept that from nothing comes nothing, but I don't see the link between that and the existance of God. If you look at what science is slowly revealing to us about how we got to where we are it's that all the complicated things in the world generally stem from something simpler, see evolution or the big bang. To have this giant complex God lurking behind it all just doesn't seem to make sense.

First and formost, it must be stated that both evolution and the big bang are both theories. These theories would probably not exist if there was not some kind of evidence that pointed to them.

The big bang theory is mostly based off of the fact that the galaxies and other matter in the universe are moving farther away from each other. (This does not explain what caused the big bang.) According to this theory, all of the matter that we know was once at a single point. It would be nonsense, however, that all matter at one point in space and time could possibly expand spontaniously into what is now known as the universe. According to most scientists, if enough matter is at one point in space and time, it would cause a hole in both space and time. (Black hole.) A hole is a lack of something. A lack of something cannot expand into what it is a lack of. According to the big bang theory, not only was all matter at one point, but space and time were also at this infinitely small point. (This complex universe may not have come from something simple after all.) A good question is, a point in what? Another good question is, how can something that is infinitely small become what we now know as the universe? The big bang theory does not explain what caused itself. The big bang may be the origin of the universe but what was the origin of the big bang?

Note: This "big bang" has never been observed and no event like it has ever been observed. It is merely an educated guess.

Evolution is also a theory. Some Christians believe that the evolution theory is true. According to such Christians, evolution is the way that God created the different species. They take the creation story in Genisis metaphorically. In the creation story in Genisis, life was created after the earth, and man was created as the last of the living creatures. I myself do not believe in evolution. This is just something that some Christians believe.

Sometimes, but not always, simple things do lie behind more complex things. What can be more simple than pure reality? A reality that exists in and of itself. A fact that requires no other facts to be true. The "I Am".

Both theists and atheists must be careful not to put so much faith in their original hypothesis. Do not try to prove your original hypothesis, try to discover truth.

Observation: (This is a personal observation.) It seems that in my experiance, it requires as much or more "faith" to be an atheist as it does to be a theist. The theists seem to put their faith in God, while the atheists seem to put their faith in anything else. (e.g. Faith in theories, or Faith in themselves, or Faith in the human race.)

by **WintersTwilight** on Mon May 08, 2006 2:01 am

lilwdlnddude wrote:
And how does some matter coliding (sorry about the spelling) explain how life came to be about.

Through a long complex chain of events... sorry but I'm low on time right now.

I am sorry, but I had forgotten to point out that qeee1 had stated earlier that complex things generally stem from simple things. The simplicity or complexity of something does not usually give a firm argument for anything.

by **areyouincahoots** on Mon May 08, 2006 2:58 am

AndyDufresne wrote:**Inter-locks his hands with someone elses while moving his thumbs to either side**

1, 2, 3, 4,

I declare a holy war.

--Andy

5, 6, 7, 8,

Try to keep your theories straight.

--Cahoots

by **shanksi** on Tue May 09, 2006 6:32 am

battletroop27 wrote:here's something to prove god is there. look at the sky. do you see god? if you are sane, you won't. does that mean god is not there? now look at yourself in the mirror. can you see your brain? you can't tell it's there, but it is.

I'm sorry but that proves absolutely nothing.
You're basically saying that if you think there's something that might exist but you can't see it, then that implies that that something does in fact exist.
Using the same logic, I could say that there's a purple, eight-headed monster in my cupboard because I looked at the cupboard and didn't see it. Utter nonsense!

by **madmanharvey** on Tue May 09, 2006 6:38 am

i dont buy the thoery of hell, being fire and and that sort of crap, the only hellish think about that is its hot. Fire is ace, something ace is not hellish, its just ace.

fire is cool there is nothing better to watch than a fire, the way it swirls and dances and what not. Im not saying i like to set fire to stuff but it sure is fun to watch.

I rekon that hell would be full of gay's that would try to bum all the time. And other rubbish stuff like glitter, i hate that stuff too, it just angers me.

So to sum it up hell is full of gays that are coverd in glitter and try to bum you. Whilst throwing more glitter aroung.

(no offece to any gays out there, they just sort of scare me)

by **thegrimsleeper** on Tue May 09, 2006 11:39 am

madmanharvey wrote:So to sum it up hell is full of gays that are coverd in glitter and try to bum you. Whilst throwing more glitter aroung.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry...

by **Phate** on Tue May 09, 2006 11:47 am

Well to my credit I did re-write the entire post... Rolling Eyes

You re-wrote the entire thing?

Didn't use copy/paste? :lol:

by **jay_a2j** on Fri May 12, 2006 3:22 pm

You say you BELIEVE in God???....."Even demons KNOW there is a God and shudder"

For one to say, "I believe in God" means nothing.

I for one do not believe in God. I know there is a God. There is a difference.

Food for thought or thought for food... whatever. :idea:

by **WintersTwilight** on Fri May 12, 2006 11:49 pm

You say you BELIEVE in God???....."Even demons KNOW there is a God and shudder"

I believe that you were refering to James 2:19; "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that -- and shudder." (NIV version). I think that the way you have used it is out of context. It here is refering to those who have faith but do not produce deeds. James is not pitting belief against knowledge, but faith without deeds against faith with deeds.

I for one do not believe in God. I know there is a God. There is a difference.

You are correct. There is a difference. I do not think that you understand this difference, though. (I will assume that by God you mean the Christian God because you did not specify.) To "know" there is a God is to be a theist. To "believe" in God is to be a Christian. I know that I exist, but I do not always believe in myself. Yes, there is a difference, but not in the way you have stated. Or perhaps I misunderstood you.

"Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do." James 2:18 (NIV version).

by **jay_a2j** on Sat May 13, 2006 10:17 am

To merely believe in God means nothing.... I could say yeah I believe in the Lock Ness Monster (based on the shady pictures put into evidence) It is entirely different to know there is a LNM by firsthand observation.

So I would say the theist "believe" in God and the Christian "knows" there is a God.

You don't need much evidence to "believe in something"

When you "know something" the evidence smacks you in the face!

Childern "believe" in santa and "know" daddy exists.

by **WintersTwilight** on Sat May 13, 2006 11:48 am

I am afraid that this may be turning into a matter of semantics, but here are the definitions of "believe" and "know" (According to Dictionary.com):

Believe:
v. tr.
1. To accept as true or real
2. To credit with veracity
3. To expect or suppose; think

v. intr.
1. To have firm faith, especially religious faith
2. To have faith, confidence, or trust
3. To have confidence in the truth or value of something
4. To have an opinion; think

Know:
v. tr.
1.To perceive directly; grasp in the mind with clarity or certainty
2.To regard as true beyond doubt
3.To have a practical understanding of, as through experience; be skilled in

v. intr.
1. To possess knowledge, understanding, or information
2. To be cognizant or aware

I would also be curious to know what you would say about Muslims or other non-Christian theists who "know" there is a God but "believe" in a different God than the Christians do. All Christians are theists but not all theists are atheists.

It does seem rather pointless, however, to be arguing about the usage of these words. It seems that it can serve no good purpose and will not benefit anyone. I may be wrong, but this just seems like a pointless argument. I can't even believe I am typing this post...

by **jay_a2j** on Sat May 13, 2006 10:21 pm

Your last post validates my arguement.... you wrote:

Believe:
v. tr.
1. To accept as true or real
2. To credit with veracity
3. To expect or suppose; think

v. intr.
1. To have firm faith, especially religious faith
2. To have faith, confidence, or trust
3. To have confidence in the truth or value of something
4. To have an opinion; think

Know:
v. tr.
1.To perceive directly; grasp in the mind with clarity or certainty
2.To regard as true beyond doubt
3.To have a practical understanding of, as through experience; be skilled in

Believe....to accept as true or real.

Know...To regard as true BEYOND DOUBT. (emphasis mine)

As for other religions, Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the light. Noone comes to the Father but through me."

It stands to reason that all religions can not be right as they claim different things pertaining to God. Muslims think of Jesus as a merely a prophet. Jesus claimed to BE God in the flesh. Even some "christian" religions don't give Christ his props....Jehova Witnesses come to mind (they believe Jesus is the son of God but NOT God...less than God)

So what to believe???

"Seek and you shall find"

by **Acetone** on Sun May 14, 2006 1:18 am

"Why did Father give these humans free will?
Now they're all confused."

I can copy and paste.

The above is from Tool.

by **battletroop27** on Sun May 14, 2006 4:03 am

he he in another forums a similar topic started by me got closed down by the admin. he got so pissed he said next person to post another religious topic will be banned or something like that. it's fun to start a topic and watch people argue about the deepest roots of human mystery.

Hell

What do you think Hell is like?

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