We're not #1!

[TheProwler]

mpjh, you seem to be under the impression that the United States is the worst nation on the planet.

I thought you were gonna ask him to leave.


Honestly.

[Iliad]

No, I am not interested in getting slammed by a bunch from the conservative clan. I just wanted to register to you that I didn't find medefe's participation uncivil in any way.

Since when was arguing and countering solace's rather bold points uncivil and nitpicking? I'm sorry if you are wrong and someone points it out don't cry nitpicking accept that you were wrong or try to argue that you were right.

Then again this doesn't matter because your opinion of medefe has already formed and you don't actually care what he does, you'll see it in a negative light.

[Snorri1234]

Hmmm, immigration is another expense that the USA (and Canada) have to deal with.

In Canada, most immigrants need to go to school to learn our language(s). They need social assistance because they do not have money and they are not skilled (again, I am saying most) and therefore can't obtain a good job. The government pays them to get educated. For years, they are a financial burden on the government and the citizens. Not to mention the fact that immigrants are very often a burden on our criminal system.

Does the USA or Canada get a pat on the back for opening their doors to refuges and the downtrodden of foreign nations?

Nah, lets just make a chart that shows what bad places they are to live.

It is a good thing that Europe doesn't have to deal with those things at all! PHEW, WE GOT OF OK PEOPLE! NO FOREIGNERS HERE!

[Snorri1234]

mpjh, you seem to be under the impression that the United States is the worst nation on the planet. Yes our history is stained with the blood of innocents, our economy is in shambles, and we're busy fighting a war that has cost us our international reputation and resulted in hundreds of thousands of deaths. However, you fail to realize that history is cyclical. Nearly every nation in human history has exploited and butchered other people. Japan, China, Iran, Iraq, India, Pakistan, Vietnam, France, Germany, Great Britain, Spain, Cambodia, Korea, Egypt, South Africa, Brasil, Chile, Guatamala, Mongolia, Russia, Italy, Sweden, The Netherlands, Afghanistan, Turkey, Nigeria, Australia, Sri Lanka, Indonesia, Tajikistan, Portugal, Rwanda, Uganda, Dem. Rep. of Congo, Sudan, Zimbabwe, Austria, Hungary, Denmark, The United States of America, and numerous other nations from antiquity to modern times. Welcome to reality. Foreign Policy is a brutal, greedy, and inhuman business. Get used to it, 'cause it is not going to change.

The economy is also cyclical. Every time our market economy suffers it is fundamentally flawed and it will be the end of society as we know it. Then a few years or so later it'll be growing and benifiting us all. Peaks and Valleys, a fundamental concept of elementary economics. To say that the current situation will be the end of us all would simply be repeating the words of the 1970s, 1930s, and even the 1830s.

Not to turn this into a debate over a single issue, but the warcrimes that have been committed by American forces in "The War on Terror" are relatively few and far between. There's Haditha, that one prison that I can't remember the name of (Abu-something), Gitmo, and some things that Blackwater et. al. have done to civilians. While the Iraqi's themselves have killed by far the most innocents.

I agree. Though I don't think you can really determine "evilness" by bodycount in such a way.

But the disagreement with solace centres around the fact that he says the USA has always done everything for a good cause. They haven't, every country in the world has done shit to benefit themselves either financially or for foreign power. The USA is no different and only when one admits that things can change.

[Snorri1234]

I'm glad to hear you're not afraid of being challenged, a certain debate club on these forums didn't want me in a while back because I was deemed to be too logical and argumentative. Right, luns?

Correct on the argumentative part

Yes. It was Iliad who was judged to be too logical.

[Iliad]

I'm glad to hear you're not afraid of being challenged, a certain debate club on these forums didn't want me in a while back because I was deemed to be too logical and argumentative. Right, luns?

Correct on the argumentative part

Yes. It was Iliad who was judged to be too logical.

Damn that logic !
*shakes fist*

[solace19k]

Since when was arguing and countering solace's rather bold points uncivil and nitpicking? I'm sorry if you are wrong and someone points it out don't cry nitpicking accept that you were wrong or try to argue that you were right.

Then again this doesn't matter because your opinion of medefe has already formed and you don't actually care what he does, you'll see it in a negative light.

I don't think the issue here is with the fact that they countered.
I think its more of the delivery you know? I think I even made a post that said I didn't think it was uncivil, that in fact, I welcomed everyone's opinion.
It only gives me the chance to further illustrate my point. I have long since given up on trying to change any foreigners stereotypical perspective on "The Great Satan" America. I will not stand by and hear my own people spew this tired and regurgitated analysis of their own country. If you want to bash your own country do it based on fact, and be open when someone presents you with another fact in reposition. Our forefathers did in fact give their lives to give you the right to even say anything publicly at all.

And as far as the America's past, how many Middle Eastern countries were under the British crown? I can think of two right off the top of my head. I believe shortly after the British rule in Iraq a secular dictator took over. I don't think the British are bad people.
I think it was also some Latin guy that said "si vis pacem, parra bellum". Oh the nerve of him, warmonger..... The first emperor of China united China by blood.

You know what amazes me too? I wonder what it would have been like if our modern media had been covering WW2 step by step? I wonder how many civilians died when Russia, The U.K, and the U.S. were swarming all over Germany, the Pacific, and Italy?

[Snorri1234]

And as far as the America's past, how many Middle Eastern countries were under the British crown? I can think of two right off the top of my head. I believe shortly after the British rule in Iraq a secular dictator took over. I don't think the British are bad people.

And neither do I. However, I don't believe the British are the prime example of virtue as a nation. Just like the US, they've done a lot of horrible shit for shady reasons. That is what MeDeFe's point was.

I think it was also some Latin guy that said "si vis pacem, parra bellum". Oh the nerve of him, warmonger.....

Since the romans conquered a very large empire, it's safe to say that they were warmongers too.

You know what amazes me too? I wonder what it would have been like if our modern media had been covering WW2 step by step? I wonder how many civilians died when Russia, The U.K, and the U.S. were swarming all over Germany, the Pacific, and Italy?

Not as many.

The problems is that the Europeans were pretty excited with the soldiers rescuing them, unlike the people in Iraq. And the bad guys in the countries were pretty easy to pick out. The germans were evil, and the rest wasn't. In Iraq the bad guys look exactly the same as the good guys, because it's their country. There is no occupying force except for the US itself, which is one of the main reasons shit is so terrible over there.

[solace19k]

Good post Snorri,

My point being with the media is that a lot of shady things that happened there were readily available through multiple media outlets. Also, some of which aren't as biased as they claim (both ways). The argument isn't with me saying that America has NEVER done any wrong, because quite frankly I never even said that in any of my posts. The Romans also contributed a lot to the world in their time. So do we teach that Rome was just a Nation of warmongers? Do we discredit everything that Rome did because of this? Arguing over the past isn't even really what I care to do anyway because times are different now.

My main complaint is that people are so quick to accuse America of doing so much wrong but very hesitant to admit what they have done. The issue of Iraq gets under my skin because most people don't even have a clue of why we are here and what we are doing.
I have addressed the reason multiple times in my posts. I've seen people get verbally attacked for merely saying " I am proud to be back home in America, The greatest country in the world" a simple statement that is expressing loyalty on a particularly patriotic holiday. The poor guy was chastised as being an arrogant ass, and forced into a pretty lame argument over semantics. How many times have you told someone"man I have the greatest woman in the world"? Did that person chastise you for being arrogant?
Did he throw it up in your face that you can't in fact prove she is the best woman in the world. Is it arrogant of me to say that tuna salad is the bestest salad in the whole wide world?

[joe cool 360]

In my encounters with people from every continent except South America, here is what I've seen about people's opinions of America:

1) The U.S. is the greatest country ever and incapable of doing wrong. <-- worrisome and delusional position

2) The U.S. is the greatest modern country and incapable of doing wrong. <-- see above

3) The U.S. is an excellent country and usually has good interests in mind. <-- not as worrisome as the above, but still suggests an unwillingness to admit room for improvement (the position of about 15% of the foreigners I've met)

4) The U.S. is a very good country, certainly with problems, but nothing that can't be changed or fixed. <-- where I stand; I hold the opinion that whatever is wrong with our country can and will be fixed if we stop bitching about it and get to work (this also happens to be the position of most people outside the U.S. that I've met)

4.1) The U.S. is great, but my country is better <-- The position of about 30% of the foreigners I've met, got no problem with these people except when they start bashing my country (barring good-natured joking)
I've numbered this one as 4.1 because most of the foriegners with this position that I've met also believe that the U.S. can and will continue to improve.

5) The U.S. is an average country and is on par with most other countries. <-- I disagree, but atleast these people want to improve the state of our country (The position of the majority of high-schoolers and college students I've met)

6) The U.S. is a below-average country full of fatties. <-- These people annoy me because they're often the same people who decry stereotypes (The position of most people on internet forums --- not bashing anyone here, this is just what I've seen)

7) The U.S. is the most incompetent, racist country ever. <-- The position of a great deal of satirical movies, and people who take their word as absolute truth

8 ) The U.S. is undeserving of what it has. <-- In my experience, a French person and several Russians held this opinion, but a sizable amount of people within the U.S. (that I've met) have this opinion

9) The U.S. is a facist state, controlled by the NWO and it is only a matter of time before they kill us all. <-- The position of a surprising amount of people on youtube and the internet in general

10) The U.S. used to be an excellent country, but is falling into a black hole of doom. <-- I dislike these people the most because they're a bunch of whiners who have no problem pointing out the problems in America, but do nothing about proposing a solution

11) The U.S. needs to die. <-- Only occasionally have I come across people with this opinion and the people that I have met with this opinion, I've met exclusively on the internet

So that was my informal survey of people's opinions of the United States of America with my own personal analysis.
You are all welcome to begin thanking me for my wealth of knowledge and amazingly logical breakdown.

[john9blue]

Haha, very nice, joe. I've heard from several people who hold more than one of those viewpoints.

I'm glad to hear you're not afraid of being challenged, a certain debate club on these forums didn't want me in a while back because I was deemed to be too logical and argumentative. Right, luns?

Although I didn't reject you (in fact, I heard that you didn't even apply), I think I know why. And it's not because of your logic skills.

which you I perceived you to do by your arrogant style of writing and one-sided view of highly complex situations.

I laughed out loud when I saw this because this is exactly how you come across. It's not that you're being too logical, it's that you try to make "right or wrong" out of issues that demand different analyses for different situations and can get highly emotional and personal. When you bring that thought process to a debate, it grossly simplifies the issue and can be seen as a personal attack on the people whom you are calling wrong. Sorry if you think I'm misjudging you, but that's the impression I get from reading your posts.

[mpjh]

Unfortunately, since Regan, American has come to act like it is an empire. It has caused many, many innocent civilian deaths and much suffering throughout the world. What few pathetic acts of good it has done, it has perpetrated far more contradicting acts of ignorant violence. I do hope that Obama can change that. First, I hope he keeps his promise to close Gitmo, which has come to symbolize America at its worst.

[jbrettlip]

Unfortunately, since Regan, American has come to act like it is an empire. It has caused many, many innocent civilian deaths and much suffering throughout the world. What few pathetic acts of good it has done, it has perpetrated far more contradicting acts of ignorant violence. I do hope that Obama can change that. First, I hope he keeps his promise to close Gitmo, which has come to symbolize America at its worst.

I would personally buy the ammo, to help "close" Gitmo successfully. You know what causes many more innocent deaths? Suicide bombers. I just don't understand how people can be mad at the US military for developing weapon systems that can fly intoa certain window of a certain building (yes they are that precise), and yet people like to blame the government for a suicide bomber in the market killing women and children. Or the outrage if a school is accidentally hit by a missile.
And a few good deeds?? Like Tsunami relief? I don't remeber checks pouring into the US from India when Katrina hit. We spend more money around the world (which we don't have) than any other country. We HELP people as well. Get off your "I hate the US. I hate Bush. Obama will save the world" high horse. It aint' going to happen.

[Snorri1234]

Good post Snorri,

My point being with the media is that a lot of shady things that happened there were readily available through multiple media outlets. Also, some of which aren't as biased as they claim (both ways). The argument isn't with me saying that America has NEVER done any wrong, because quite frankly I never even said that in any of my posts. The Romans also contributed a lot to the world in their time. So do we teach that Rome was just a Nation of warmongers? Do we discredit everything that Rome did because of this? Arguing over the past isn't even really what I care to do anyway because times are different now.

All too often I've seen people unwilling to admit the facts from history, or facts from now. I see this mostly when the subject is native americans or the Iraq War (foreign policy in general has this problem, and it goes for most countries).

My main complaint is that people are so quick to accuse America of doing so much wrong but very hesitant to admit what they have done. The issue of Iraq gets under my skin because most people don't even have a clue of why we are here and what we are doing.

You're there because the government lied to everybody, and what you are doing is sometimes a direct result of those lies and the government being compromised of dickwads. (I've seen people argue that the torture done, a government policy, isn't bad.)

I have addressed the reason multiple times in my posts. I've seen people get verbally attacked for merely saying " I am proud to be back home in America, The greatest country in the world" a simple statement that is expressing loyalty on a particularly patriotic holiday. The poor guy was chastised as being an arrogant ass, and forced into a pretty lame argument over semantics. How many times have you told someone"man I have the greatest woman in the world"? Did that person chastise you for being arrogant?

I don't think I've ever said I have the greatest woman in the world. But patriotism and love are different things. I love my country dearly, but I'm not always proud of it. Saying something about how your girlfriend is the greatest is different from saying your country is the greatest, because the statement implies there isn't much wrong. And I'm sorry to say this, but there is much wrong in the US.


Check this:

4) The U.S. is a very good country, certainly with problems, but nothing that can't be changed or fixed. <-- where I stand; I hold the opinion that whatever is wrong with our country can and will be fixed if we stop bitching about it and get to work (this also happens to be the position of most people outside the U.S. that I've met)

This is a very reasonable and true stance.

"The greatest country" is just a bad way of expressing your love because it just sets of all the wrong flags. "Proud" and "great" just make people want to point out all the horrible things that a "great" country shouldn't be doing and a person shouldn't be "proud" of. The words imply that change isn't needed, a rather foolish position to hold.

[Snorri1234]

Unfortunately, since Regan, American has come to act like it is an empire. It has caused many, many innocent civilian deaths and much suffering throughout the world. What few pathetic acts of good it has done, it has perpetrated far more contradicting acts of ignorant violence. I do hope that Obama can change that. First, I hope he keeps his promise to close Gitmo, which has come to symbolize America at its worst.

I would personally buy the ammo, to help "close" Gitmo successfully.

Why would you need ammo to close it down?

You know what causes many more innocent deaths? Suicide bombers. I just don't understand how people can be mad at the US military for developing weapon systems that can fly intoa certain window of a certain building (yes they are that precise), and yet people like to blame the government for a suicide bomber in the market killing women and children. Or the outrage if a school is accidentally hit by a missile.

Ummm....it's not that weird to be outraged when the military "accidentally" hits a school. Outrage is an understandable reaction, and in the case of suicide bombers that outrage needs to be directed at someone.

Anyway, I sort of fail to understand what this has to do with mpjh's post. Unless I missed the part where he says how much he loves suicide bombers who are the epitome of good.

And a few good deeds?? Like Tsunami relief? I don't remeber checks pouring into the US from India when Katrina hit. We spend more money around the world (which we don't have) than any other country. We HELP people as well. Get off your "I hate the US. I hate Bush. Obama will save the world" high horse. It aint' going to happen.

Actually, you only spend more than other countries because you have more money than other countries. As a percentage of GDP it isn't that much (compared with european countries) I believe you're somewhere in the middle of the developed countries index of giving money.

[cutebastard71]

Hmmm, immigration is another expense that the USA (and Canada) have to deal with.

In Canada, most immigrants need to go to school to learn our language(s). They need social assistance because they do not have money and they are not skilled (again, I am saying most) and therefore can't obtain a good job. The government pays them to get educated. For years, they are a financial burden on the government and the citizens. Not to mention the fact that immigrants are very often a burden on our criminal system.

Does the USA or Canada get a pat on the back for opening their doors to refuges and the downtrodden of foreign nations?

Nah, lets just make a chart that shows what bad places they are to live.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would argue that your "most" is not correct. I am not going to go into actual statistics with you but I will post this from stats canada page....

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/81-004-x/2 ... 12-eng.htm

Immigrants arriving in Canada in recent years are more educated than were immigrants who arrived in the past and are twice as likely as the Canadian-born population to have a university education.

And as a reference

Education in Canada: Raising the standard. 2001 Census: analysis series. 2003. Statistics Canada Catalogue number 96F0030XIE2001012.


As for the rankings... I am not surprised that Iceland is No. 1, after spending so much money on social services they now go bankrupt

Well, you quoted this:

"Immigrants arriving in Canada in recent years are more educated than were immigrants who arrived in the past and are twice as likely as the Canadian-born population to have a university education."

But didn't quote what followed:

"However, the evidence shows that despite having high levels of education, the economic performance of immigrants relative to the Canadian-born population has deteriorated. Many immigrants find it difficult to secure well-paying jobs and their earnings tend to be well below those of the Canadian-born population."

We could debate why. For instance, I have heard that a university education in many countries does not equal a Canadian university education. But it might just be the simple fact that they cannot speak either of our languages. Regardless, whatever the reason, the skills they bring are not translating to them being positive contributors to our economy.

This is actually interesting. I have an example. In my city, there is a fairly large population of Portuguese (especially in the neighbourhood where I was raised). The families I know came to Canada about 35 to 45 years ago. They were labourers. Construction workers, etc.. They got here, and went to work. Those Portuguese that I know who are approaching or have reached retirement age still do not speak English very well. But it never stopped them from working. But their children, who were raised in Canada, of course do speak English well. And they have a range of education and careers.

Maybe, because of the language barrier, a less-educated immigrant, willing and happy to perform manual labour, is actually more valuable/less costly than a well-educated immigrant who expects to slide into a professional career without being able to understand or speak English.

Well you were talking about education/skills and I deliberately did not want to go into discussion why they do not become positive "contributors" since it is much broader topic. But since you started it here is my opinion. Most professions in Canada are protective of their salaries and they do not want to endanger their levels. I could give you details of one I am very familiar with PEO (Professional Engeineers of Ontario) but I do not think that the engineering associations in other provinces are much better.

As for quality of education at Canadian Universities it is a BS. People like to think of themselves they are the best but U of T, McGill and Waterloo are not better than IIT (India), Tsinghua (China), Sharif (Iran), Lomonosov (Russia), not even to mentions schools in England, France, Germany, Netherlands, FInland, Sweden, etc. The fact is that the quality of education in high schools is going down and as a consequence the students entering universities know less and less.

The story you gave about Portuguese families relates to immigration waves in 60s and 70s. However today it is very difficult to immigrate to Canada as a skilled worker and you actually need a university degree. And similarly to US there is a trend to keep foreign graduate students by letting them apply for permanent residence during their MS/PhD studies.

In my opinion the reason people need assistance is because this society has prejudice against immigrants such as Canadian schools are better, Canadian business practice is better, etc. but it actually serves one purpose to keep their salaries at lower levels.

As for your opinion of who is less/more valuable I prefer a country which has highly educated people. If you base economy of your country on resources (which in my opinion is correlated with that we need "trades") you are doomed sooner or later. You should use resource wealth to invest in industrial R&D. In USA they have an excellent strategy when it comes to that. National Science Foundation (NSF) funds particular research areas for certain number of years. After that they slowly stop funding these areas and let industrial R&D pick up whichever areas prove to be of practical value and NSF moves into new fields. This enabled USA to have biomedical engineering and military/defense pillars of their economy in addition to entertainment industry and financial services. Of course USA is a much bigger player etc. but if you look into the list of industrial R&D amounts (relative to income) Canadian companies are nowhere. If I remember correctly (only Bombardier and maybe one pharmaceutical company) where in top 100. One example of what happens when you do not invest in new technologies is Hamilton in Ontario. They thought that the steel industry is going to be there forever not understanding that the technology gap between West and Asia/South America is closing and that old technologies will move inevitably to other parts of the world. Once it hit them it was too late.

As for the language, immigrants who have university degree do speak English sufficiently well to communicate in business environment but the problem in my opinion is not that but (as I mentioned) salaries.

[TheProwler]

PHEW, WE GOT OF OK PEOPLE! NO FOREIGNERS HERE!

Sorry, I speak English. Please translate.


So are refuges flocking to the Netherlands?

[TheProwler]

every country in the world has done shit to benefit themselves either financially or for foreign power

But the people here constantly focus on the USA.

How many times have I heard about slavery in the USA from hundreds of years ago? Now people are bringing up native Americans.

Really, stay focused. Keep it current. Does America need to issue a formal apology on a daily basis for shit that happened in the 1800's?

[MeDeFe]

every country in the world has done shit to benefit themselves either financially or for foreign power

But the people here constantly focus on the USA.

How many times have I heard about slavery in the USA from hundreds of years ago? Now people are bringing up native Americans.

Really, stay focused. Keep it current. Does America need to issue a formal apology on a daily basis for shit that happened in the 1800's?

You know, I can't really think of any other country in which the population is generally so... vocal about telling everyone how great their country is. That might be at least a part of the reason, equal action and reaction, right?

[TheProwler]

cutebastard71, we certainly disagree on some points. I agree that some professional associations in Canada might be protective of their status.

I think there needs to be a balance of skills and a good mix of manual labourers and professionals. We are always going to need houses built, roads paved, cars fixed, and garbage picked up on Wednesdays.

In my business, I find it frustrating and inefficient to work with people who are hard to understand. You think that the English skills of immigrants are sufficient and I think that they are not the vast majority of the time. Even if it is an accent that is too strong, it causes problems. But we have to agree to disagree on that one.

Anyways, I'm gonna bow out of this as I think it is a little off-topic now. People are discussing our good friends to the South.

[joe cool 360]

You know, I can't really think of any other country in which the population is generally so... vocal about telling everyone how great their country is. That might be at least a part of the reason, equal action and reaction, right?

Actually, I can, it's called Canada. Every Canadian I've ever met was very proud of his/her country. Since when was it wrong to be proud of your country?
I think of it this way: Parents can be very proud of their children, which can sometimes lead them to be blind to what their children do. On the other hand, it is because of this pride and their love for those children that parents will try to correct their children when they are wrong.
It is fine for Americans to be proud of their country and announce it to the world, but it is not okay for the U.S. to be blind to its own problems, be ignorant of other nations, or put down other nations (except in jest).

[TheProwler]

You know, I can't really think of any other country in which the population is generally so... vocal about telling everyone how great their country is. That might be at least a part of the reason, equal action and reaction, right?

It might be part of the reason, sure.

It certainly doesn't offend me though. I know Canada is the greatest country in the world. We don't have any issues to deal with right now ...

I know the USA is doing what it can to improve things. It doesn't have the most efficient system in the world and it makes a lot of mistakes. Sure. But that can be said for any country. But I really believe that the USA does a lot of good and that is always their intention. Sometimes you have to look at the bigger picture to see it, but I personally believe they are trying to make things better.

What people should understand is that the majority of Americans do realize that their country has serious issues and problems to deal with. And they are trying to make the right decisions. You just have to look at the presidential debates from a few months ago to know that America isn't sitting back and relaxing. America is trying hard to do the right things for themselves and for the rest of the world too.

Just because a couple of people are very vocal about their patriotism doesn't mean that the entire country is complacent and not trying to improve.

As an American, you should know that by focusing on the negative, you are reinforcing the negative opinions others have of your country. I know you have your rights and all that. You are lucky enough to be an American where you do have those rights. But if you don't like it there, and I am saying this seriously and calmly and respectfully, why don't you just leave?

[Snorri1234]

PHEW, WE GOT OF OK PEOPLE! NO FOREIGNERS HERE!

Sorry, I speak English. Please translate.


So are refuges flocking to the Netherlands?

Yes.

Currently about 30,000 people come to the Netherlands to join family or spouse. Around 10,000 people try to get asylum over here, which was about 52,000 in the mid nineties but changed because we're barring more people from getting in.

Currently there are about 3.2 million people with a non-dutch background, of which 1.7 million are from non-western countries.



And this is for a country about 16,000 square mile with 16 million people in it.

[Snorri1234]

As an American, you should know that by focusing on the negative, you are reinforcing the negative opinions others have of your country. I know you have your rights and all that. You are lucky enough to be an American where you do have those rights. But if you don't like it there, and I am saying this seriously and calmly and respectfully, why don't you just leave?

Yeah MeDeFe! Why don't you just leave the US!?

[OnlyAmbrose]

but changed because we're barring more people from getting in.

You dirty inhuman bastards.