We're not #1!

[Megadeth666]

[MeDeFe]

Nah man you know we won't get a pat on the back for anything we do for anyone.

I know this is a very basic but simple point but check it out.

America is always going to be judged for anything it does because its just a fun thing to do i guess. Nevermind the fact that we have pretty much passed most countries that are 10000 years ahead of us. Nevermind in a little under 300 years we have established a successful (aruged) government, an economy that is a major player in the global market, bailed the europeans out from facisim, provided for its people and taken in the hordes of hopefulls from other countries. All while recovering from a great depression and still keeping its government intact (which in itself is a feat). The "downfall" of America began when we became soft and decided that we would let the world judge who we are. When is the last major invention came from effin' Pakistan? As a matter of fact, that part of the world is still resorting to blowing each other up. My point is in 300 years we have done alot and became a major spectacle and fell under the scrutiny of the world. Now even its own people are starting to divide because we have no solid set of ethics or values. The only problem with America that I see is that humanity is allowed to take advantage of its own freedoms and that everyone wants a peice of the pie. Americans need to unite under one common goal and stop watching the freaking reality shows and start showing the world that we are still the great nation that has contributed so much to it.


....whew.... i need a smoke

Fine...

You waged a war of extinction on the peoples who had lived in North America for tens of thousands of years before the first European explorers even set a foot on the continent. Yes, that's right, a war of extinction, in 1650, over 95% of the population in North America was native, in 1850, 95% were either of European or African descent. Guess what happened in between. You have repeatedly trampled the rights of practically every conceivable immigrant group in your own country, racism and religious intolerance are to this day prevalent in your whole society. Even today, the only "true" kind of American is one who's white and protestant, preferably with forefathers from England.
You have waged wars on countries that were no threat to you, helped topple democratically elected governments (way to spread democracy!), put dictatorships in power in their stead and directly aided the very terrorists who you fight against today.

Are you sure you want to tell us how singularly great you have been? I'll acknowledge that what you said in the post I quoted is mostly true, the USA has also done some good, but don't try and imply that you have never caused anything bad.


Your second post, however, looks like a load of bollocks to me. I'm not even sure what you are talking about, it's dumb luck that there hasn't been a major terrorist attack in the USA the last few years. Do you have any idea how insecure your ports are? You could smuggle in a tank if you're determined enough.

PS. in case you feel tempted to try a reductio ad Hitlerum, let me point out that I'm an immigrant.

PPS. pimpdave is talking about the USA's collective addiction to oil, which is indeed making a lot of people in the middle east very rich.

[solace19k]

MeDeFe, when did I say the United States has never done anywrong?
I presented ideas that are proven through history, if you want the details to support this I can give them in a nice lengthy post that would bore everyone. The idea that the U.S. has never made a mistake is a pretty ignorant thing to say for anyone. That wasn't even in the context of what I said. I presented ideas in a very humble manner and by far do I have to resort to mere theories about how the US is addicted to oil and our intrests in the middle east are because of that. Name one history book based on proven fact that mentions anything about any of these wars being fought over freaking oil. Desert Storm was to protect a smaller country from being taken over by a hostile , desparate dictator that was loosing control of his already war torn country. You cannot judge what motivates each and every administration that runs a country because of the simple fact that people are different.
What you have to look at is that the United States intentions have always been to promote the basic law of humanity that all people have the right to live and live freely. What happened to us is a crime. What happened in India is a crime. What happened in Iraq is a crime.

Hey here's an idea, there is more oil in the Canadian tundra than in Iraq and Afganistan combined. Why don't we just call them terrorists and invade them too? Has our government ALWAYS used the most ethical means to acheieve what it has? I never said it has. Then again name one country throughout history that has? If you think my ideas are one sided then your wrong. My ideas and OPINIONS are motivated by the desire to educate people that listen to the anti-american ramblings of people who don't even take the time to follow the history.
Irans government supports a criminal mindset that violates the basic law of humanity.
Terrorism is a global threat and it has to be proven that people will not tolerate it, its the only way to beat it. It's not about freaking oil man, its a proxy war with a country who's government desires a new world order, and will support that cause by any means available.
We did not cause that strife and civil war in that country, we did not destroy that country.
The damage was done long before we even stepped foot in it.

[MeDeFe]

You did not say outright that the USA has never done anything wrong, that's why I said not to imply such a thing, which you I perceived you to do by your arrogant style of writing and one-sided view of highly complex situations.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on what qualifies as "humble" I see your post as anything but. I bolded all the "unhumble" parts and added a few comments that might or might not help explain why I perceive it as arrogant rather than humble.

Nah man you know we won't get a pat on the back for anything we do for anyone.

I know this is a very basic but simple point but check it out.

America is always going to be judged for anything it does because its just a fun thing to do i guess. Nevermind the fact that we have pretty much passed most countries that are 10000(orly? 10000 years? Maybe Egypt is that old, but I can't think of any other nation even approaching a history of that length) years ahead of us. Nevermind in a little under 300 years we have established a successful (aruged) government, an economy that is a major player in the global market, bailed the europeans out from facisim(took your sweet time, too), provided for its people and taken in the hordes of hopefulls from other countries. (I mentioned the oppression of minorities?) All while recovering from a great depression (surely there wasn't a depression for 300 years?) and still keeping its government (whose government?) intact (which in itself is a feat). The "downfall" of America began when we became soft and decided that we would let the world judge who we are. (The very idea! That someone other than you should be allowed to hold an opinion about you!) When is the last major invention came from effin' Pakistan? (I read some professor patented a method for Uranium enrichment that's so cheap you could do it in your basement, not sure how well it works) As a matter of fact, that part of the world is still resorting to blowing each other up. (Guess which other parts of the world played a great role in causing this situation, it's not only one country) My point is in 300 years we have done alot and became a major spectacle and fell under the scrutiny of the world. Now even its own people are starting to divide because we have no solid set of ethics or values. (You're a democracy, you're supposed to be able to deal with that sort of thing) The only problem with America that I see is that humanity is allowed to take advantage of its own freedoms and that everyone wants a peice of the pie. (wut? who's "everyone"? what are you talking about?) Americans need to unite under one common goal and stop watching the freaking reality shows and start showing the world that we are still the great nation that has contributed so much to it. (I agree with the middle part here, reality TV has to go. As for "one common goal"... dangerous, those things often lead to tyranny)


....whew.... i need a smoke

[luns101]

You did not say outright that the USA has never done anything wrong, that's why I said not to imply such a thing, which you I perceived you to do by your arrogant style of writing and one-sided view of highly complex situations.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on what qualifies as "humble" I see your post as anything but. I bolded all the "unhumble" parts and added a few comments that might or might not help explain why I perceive it as arrogant rather than humble.

MeDeFe, you need to relax and stop judging people

Relax!

[mpjh]

You need to take your paternalism elsewhere. I did not see any unreasonable judging on medefe's part.

[luns101]

You need to take your paternalism elsewhere. I did not see any unreasonable judging on medefe's part.

It's obvious that MeDeFe has made some colossal accusations and judges the United States based on some bad historical assumptions. Solace has tried to be civil and reasonable and MeDeFe's reaction has been to nitpick once again over language. He's done this with me and with others.

[mpjh]

One man's nitpick, is another man's incorrect fact. Looks like a fairly civil discussion to me.

[luns101]

One man's nitpick, is another man's incorrect fact. Looks like a fairly civil discussion to me.

You could always start a poll to see if the majority of people here find his nitpicking annoying or enjoyable.

The facts contradict his accusations.

[mpjh]

No, I am not interested in getting slammed by a bunch from the conservative clan. I just wanted to register to you that I didn't find medefe's participation uncivil in any way.

[solace19k]

So using adjectives that provide a positive conotation to what I write is arrogant?

I'm sorry that a sense of emotion reflects in my writing when I am writing in defense of a nation that is being torn apart by outsiders, as well as people from within. It is imperative that in a time like this that our (insert objective adjective here) Nation unites once again like it has done ( proven ) in the past. Who is being condecending and prejudice against one another? I never assaulted anything you wrote nor am I going to. Also, I did not assault anyone else's particular country and was carefull broad references to proven and documented events. Some of your points are valid points, some of them are talking about domestic issues that I'm sure quite a few countries share, and some of them are just nit-picking in an effort to discredit what I am saying as a whole. I don't care what you think of me as a person, I don't have anything to prove to you or anybody but I guess thats just arrogant talk.
You can't judge people as a whole because people are so versatile in their culture. I am not addressing the issues with people, I am addressing the total B.S. that America is some selfish tyrant that is set on spreading their way of life to the world. America has time and time again defended the basic law of humanity that I have spoke of. The agenda hasn't always been the same, but the basic intention was to do a little good. We have intrest in the world because the world depends on everyone. As far as this rascism and oppression thing you keep throwing up. For every event you can bring up that shows evidence of this, I can name an event done by our government to try to correct it. It is individuals that are rascist, and sometimes "individuality" is a double-edged sword. I'm tired of Americans feeling like they have to walk on eggshells around people of other nations because they feel like they are going to be called all of the horrible stereotypes being spread around about us and our country. It's time for Americans to be educated and proud of what they have, just like people from other nations need to be educated and proud of their country too. In the end that is what it comes down to. Unity, and pride and the ability to discern the B.S. from what is real.
That my friend, is universal. It applies to all of us as human beings.

[solace19k]

No I don't feel threatened or do I feel that his post was uncivil, maybe aggressive but not uncivil. While I don't agree with him on some points and while I think that maybe he nit-picked over a few of the more broad statements, that is clearly within his right to do so.

I don't mind being challenged at all. It is times that you are challenged that you find the most about yourself and it brings the best out of people if they know how to handle it. I applaud him for his opinions and I wish more people would bring more to the table like him. Then maybe we can find the cure to cancer or something ... I dunno?

And for the record I am not really a conservative, but I will not call myself a liberal either.
My support for what we are doing in the middle east does not make me conservative.
Just because I believe in order and discipline does not make me conservative or liberal.
Just because I protect the right for all people to live and live free, does not make me a conservative or liberal either. I can't re-call the last time I shot a civilian or oppressed anyone lately .... I can recall however, the little girl I pulled out of a car after AQI bombed a crowd of civilians celebrating a win in the Asia Cup.

[mpjh]

No I don't feel threatened or do I feel that his post was uncivil, maybe aggressive but not uncivil. While I don't agree with him on some points and while I think that maybe he nit-picked over a few of the more broad statements, that is clearly within his right to do so.

I don't mind being challenged at all. It is times that you are challenged that you find the most about yourself and it brings the best out of people if they know how to handle it. I applaud him for his opinions and I wish more people would bring more to the table like him. Then maybe we can find the cure to cancer or something ... I dunno?

And for the record I am not really a conservative, but I will not call myself a liberal either.
My support for what we are doing in the middle east does not make me conservative.
Just because I believe in order and discipline does not make me conservative or liberal.
Just because I protect the right for all people to live and live free, does not make me a conservative or liberal either. I can't re-call the last time I shot a civilian or oppressed anyone lately .... I can recall however, the little girl I pulled out of a car after AQI bombed a crowd of civilians celebrating a win in the Asia Cup.

So your supposed to be special? I know several women who have given their entire lives to saving children in intensive care units. I know at least two grandmothers that have used up their entire life savings trying to get their great-grandchildren a start in life and a college education. I have put my own life on the line int he street several times trying to prevent a brutal beating to a stranger, and I didn't have the advantage of body armor. You are just one more among many who sacrifice for others.

That aside, your one anecdote does not a case for a country's history make. The United States is a complicated country with a very complicated history. Just one example. We sat on our hands when the Jews were slaughtered in Europe, yet today we support Israel even when they engage in apartheid. Irony rules.

So, you have done a good job, but don't think that clears the United States of its entire history.

[cutebastard71]

Hmmm, immigration is another expense that the USA (and Canada) have to deal with.

In Canada, most immigrants need to go to school to learn our language(s). They need social assistance because they do not have money and they are not skilled (again, I am saying most) and therefore can't obtain a good job. The government pays them to get educated. For years, they are a financial burden on the government and the citizens. Not to mention the fact that immigrants are very often a burden on our criminal system.

Does the USA or Canada get a pat on the back for opening their doors to refuges and the downtrodden of foreign nations?

Nah, lets just make a chart that shows what bad places they are to live.

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I would argue that your "most" is not correct. I am not going to go into actual statistics with you but I will post this from stats canada page....

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/81-004-x/2 ... 12-eng.htm

Immigrants arriving in Canada in recent years are more educated than were immigrants who arrived in the past and are twice as likely as the Canadian-born population to have a university education.

And as a reference

Education in Canada: Raising the standard. 2001 Census: analysis series. 2003. Statistics Canada Catalogue number 96F0030XIE2001012.


As for the rankings... I am not surprised that Iceland is No. 1, after spending so much money on social services they now go bankrupt

[MeDeFe]

@solace19k
Throughout my post I was referring to the collective "you" of "all US Americans and their ancestors who moved there", not you as a person. I read your first post as applying to them so I took the same group and brought up some of the negative points that can be associated with this group of people.

I'm glad to hear you're not afraid of being challenged, a certain debate club on these forums didn't want me in a while back because I was deemed to be too logical and argumentative. Right, luns?

So using adjectives that provide a positive conotation to what I write is arrogant?

I take it you're referring to me putting "great nation that has contributed so much to it" in bold. I must confess I was a little hesitant about it, it's a matter of how to interpret it. On its own it's an ok sentence, not exactly humble, but not arrogant either, not a bad rallying call for US Americans to get their act together. I decided to add it to the rest because of the overall perception I had of your post.

[reggie_mac]

Ok, im just going to blame it one shite food, crap TV and fat lazy people

[solace19k]

So your supposed to be special? I know several women who have given their entire lives to saving children in intensive care units. I know at least two grandmothers that have used up their entire life savings trying to get their great-grandchildren a start in life and a college education. I have put my own life on the line int he street several times trying to prevent a brutal beating to a stranger, and I didn't have the advantage of body armor. You are just one more among many who sacrifice for others.

That aside, your one anecdote does not a case for a country's history make. The United States is a complicated country with a very complicated history. Just one example. We sat on our hands when the Jews were slaughtered in Europe, yet today we support Israel even when they engage in apartheid. Irony rules.

So, you have done a good job, but don't think that clears the United States of its entire history.

What are you talking about? When did I make any reference that I am special for my experiences. I don't need to cash in that card. The reason I said that was to give an example from personal experience of the crime against innocent life.

I'm not fishing for your support of what I have done, nor am I acting as a spokesman for the United States. So I do not have to answer for the "mistakes" made by the United States. I will however, not let my already struggling country continue to be pummeled to the ground by stereotypes and unfounded theories. Funded the same terrorists we are fighting now? Who? AQI is nothing but an international gang that is profiting off of terrorism. I suppose you are referring to the Taliban who is now fighting under a different set of reasons and now using terrorist tactics, which is in stark contrast of what they did when we supported their cause against Russia.

You still seem to be missing my main point. America is not the one killing innocent civilians in the name of God. America is not the one extorting businesses in Iraq. America is not the one that singles out and targets innocent unarmed civilians. America is not the one that is funding INTERNATIONALLY KNOWN TERRORIST ORGANIZATIONS.
America is fighting a PROXY war against a Nation that has been proven to support quite a few major terrorist and criminal organizations. If you don't believe me, look it up.

[mpjh]

You got your fact wrong. America is precisely all those things you claim it isn't. That is why we are in the mess we are in.

[solace19k]

Ok cool, now lets go get our drink on ... TO DEMOCRACY!!!!

[luns101]

I'm glad to hear you're not afraid of being challenged, a certain debate club on these forums didn't want me in a while back because I was deemed to be too logical and argumentative. Right, luns?

Correct on the argumentative part

[InkL0sed]

I'm glad to hear you're not afraid of being challenged, a certain debate club on these forums didn't want me in a while back because I was deemed to be too logical and argumentative. Right, luns?

Correct on the argumentative part

Too argumentative for a debate club?

Interesting...

[Grooveman2007]

mpjh, you seem to be under the impression that the United States is the worst nation on the planet. Yes our history is stained with the blood of innocents, our economy is in shambles, and we're busy fighting a war that has cost us our international reputation and resulted in hundreds of thousands of deaths. However, you fail to realize that history is cyclical. Nearly every nation in human history has exploited and butchered other people. Japan, China, Iran, Iraq, India, Pakistan, Vietnam, France, Germany, Great Britain, Spain, Cambodia, Korea, Egypt, South Africa, Brasil, Chile, Guatamala, Mongolia, Russia, Italy, Sweden, The Netherlands, Afghanistan, Turkey, Nigeria, Australia, Sri Lanka, Indonesia, Tajikistan, Portugal, Rwanda, Uganda, Dem. Rep. of Congo, Sudan, Zimbabwe, Austria, Hungary, Denmark, The United States of America, and numerous other nations from antiquity to modern times. Welcome to reality. Foreign Policy is a brutal, greedy, and inhuman business. Get used to it, 'cause it is not going to change.

The economy is also cyclical. Every time our market economy suffers it is fundamentally flawed and it will be the end of society as we know it. Then a few years or so later it'll be growing and benifiting us all. Peaks and Valleys, a fundamental concept of elementary economics. To say that the current situation will be the end of us all would simply be repeating the words of the 1970s, 1930s, and even the 1830s.

Not to turn this into a debate over a single issue, but the warcrimes that have been committed by American forces in "The War on Terror" are relatively few and far between. There's Haditha, that one prison that I can't remember the name of (Abu-something), Gitmo, and some things that Blackwater et. al. have done to civilians. While the Iraqi's themselves have killed by far the most innocents.

[mpjh]

Ok cool, now lets go get our drink on ... TO DEMOCRACY!!!!

Sorry don't drink anymore, but you have fun.

[TheProwler]

Hmmm, immigration is another expense that the USA (and Canada) have to deal with.

In Canada, most immigrants need to go to school to learn our language(s). They need social assistance because they do not have money and they are not skilled (again, I am saying most) and therefore can't obtain a good job. The government pays them to get educated. For years, they are a financial burden on the government and the citizens. Not to mention the fact that immigrants are very often a burden on our criminal system.

Does the USA or Canada get a pat on the back for opening their doors to refuges and the downtrodden of foreign nations?

Nah, lets just make a chart that shows what bad places they are to live.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would argue that your "most" is not correct. I am not going to go into actual statistics with you but I will post this from stats canada page....

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/81-004-x/2 ... 12-eng.htm

Immigrants arriving in Canada in recent years are more educated than were immigrants who arrived in the past and are twice as likely as the Canadian-born population to have a university education.

And as a reference

Education in Canada: Raising the standard. 2001 Census: analysis series. 2003. Statistics Canada Catalogue number 96F0030XIE2001012.


As for the rankings... I am not surprised that Iceland is No. 1, after spending so much money on social services they now go bankrupt

Well, you quoted this:

"Immigrants arriving in Canada in recent years are more educated than were immigrants who arrived in the past and are twice as likely as the Canadian-born population to have a university education."

But didn't quote what followed:

"However, the evidence shows that despite having high levels of education, the economic performance of immigrants relative to the Canadian-born population has deteriorated. Many immigrants find it difficult to secure well-paying jobs and their earnings tend to be well below those of the Canadian-born population."

We could debate why. For instance, I have heard that a university education in many countries does not equal a Canadian university education. But it might just be the simple fact that they cannot speak either of our languages. Regardless, whatever the reason, the skills they bring are not translating to them being positive contributors to our economy.

This is actually interesting. I have an example. In my city, there is a fairly large population of Portuguese (especially in the neighbourhood where I was raised). The families I know came to Canada about 35 to 45 years ago. They were labourers. Construction workers, etc.. They got here, and went to work. Those Portuguese that I know who are approaching or have reached retirement age still do not speak English very well. But it never stopped them from working. But their children, who were raised in Canada, of course do speak English well. And they have a range of education and careers.

Maybe, because of the language barrier, a less-educated immigrant, willing and happy to perform manual labour, is actually more valuable/less costly than a well-educated immigrant who expects to slide into a professional career without being able to understand or speak English.

[TheProwler]

I'm glad to hear you're not afraid of being challenged, a certain debate club on these forums didn't want me in a while back because I was deemed to be too logical and argumentative. Right, luns?

Correct on the argumentative part

Too argumentative for a debate club?

Interesting...

I suspect that they were looking to discuss issues in a constructive way, and MeDeFee was being overly aggressive when he disagreed.

I guess I really don't know...it could also mean that since he lacked logic, his illogical arguments were not wanted. That's probably it.