Validity of the Bible

[Backglass]

You demand proof, God demands faith. It's not that God can't provide you the "proof" that you demand, He just wants you to meet Him halfway.

Well sorry Nate, but I say thats a copout. It's an easy way to explain away his absence (or non-existance). He could appear in the sky to the WORLD and stop the charade, wars, evil, etc, but he just doesnt want to.

Please don't tell me that you don't have any faith, because you appear to have faith in you're own existence (still not proven) my existence (also not proven) the validity of your own memories (you assume that you existed 10 minutes ago) etc.

Jay tried this battle of "faith mnemonics" as well. I do not believe in gods, devils, fairy's, leprechauns or pegasus. I do believe in people. I do not need "faith" to prove that I exist. I know I exist. I do not know if a god exists. Nobody has seen one in thousands of years, so a rational person (one that has not been brainwashed since birth) can only come to the conclusion that they do not exist.

Here are the two fiercest advocates for free will demanding

I love how freely you substitute "demand" for "question". We are only asking the hard questions and would like straight answers instead of excuses.

An all powerful, all knowing God creates some very weak creatures. The thing about these creatures is that they can continue to develop as long as they are alive. He wants them to love Him, and He knows that if you force love, it's not real. So He gives every one of them the choice to choose him or reject him. He doesn't do anything to bully them into believing in Him, because if they're not looking for Him, they'll never love Him anyway. He doesn't prevent all evil from happening, because people caused it in their own free will, and a lot of time, when bad things happen, people start to look for God, and end up loving Him. The sin thing was a problem, but He allowed His human form to suffer and die, so that if they wanted to get rid of their sin, they could.

Very nice dancing. Let me see if I follow: This god can do anything, he is all powerful. BUT he created flawed creatures through his own mistake. Strangely he didnt shit-can it and start over, but kept the flawed models. He also lets horrible things happen to these models like a twisted child with a magnifying glass lighting fire to ants. Sure he could stop it, but why not let them suffer a little! BUT...Even though he IS A GOD (and therfor needs nothing or noone), for some reason he needs humans to worship him to make him feel important. For some odd reason, he wants people to choose this of their own free will (because he could easily just snap a finger and make it so), BUT if they DONT choose him they will toast forever is some fiery BBQ. Should you choose the RED pill, you sit on a fluffy white cloud with billlions of others sipping tea with a god for eternity. Which, by the way I am sure a god would love to do. Spend an eternity chatting with drooling worshipers.

You lose me at the first six words of your story "An all powerful, all knowing God..." because I dont believe in gods..any of them. But to humor you I again ask why? WHY the expiriment? If he wanted everyone to love him, he could have instilled that into every newborn child (which are all born atheists BTW, only to be indoctrinated later).

I just find the concept of any gods silly...it is worshiping a fantasy.

[heavycola]

The sin thing was a problem, but He allowed His human form to suffer and die, so that if they wanted to get rid of their sin, they could.

And here is another one of these massive leaps.

it's like saying: Humans couldn't bake cakes very well, so god took a shark and made it holy, so that humans could bake better cakes if they chose to do so.

It makes no sense. It's not an argument, it's a strange fable, and unless you take the 'bible as truth' as your first premise, it's barmy. Which leads us to ask, why take the bible as truth in the first place?

[Mirak]

He doesn't prevent all evil from happening, because people caused it in their own free will

So some sicko child murderer could be stopped but God allows it to happen because hey...he gave free will to the poor kid?

Well you convinced me...

Oh 200,000 people wiped out by a tsunami but hey..it was their own fault becaused they "free willed" it to happen...Oh but most of them were non-Christians so they asked for it anyway..they refused to understand the very simple message of Christ....."I am the son of God..er actually I am God..no I'm both rolled into one...plus the holy spirit..now my father, who is me, sent me to die so that I, who am my father, can forgive you all for not doing what my dad, that's me, said you should do, which he, I mean I, new you wouldn't do even before you were born..." simple huh


He doesn't stop all evil happening because he can't..there is nobody at home...

btw welcome to CC

[demigod]

I think that Bertrand Russell makes the point admirably... and that whoever is responsible for the rest of the article is making a very disingenuous argument to rebut, and failing miserably

"it wrongly assumes that “everything must have a cause” when what is claimed is that “everything that has a beginning had a cause”

You are falling into the same trap as Russell by failing to accept that not everything had a cause. Even famous sceptic David Hume wrote: 'The temporal world has a beginning. An infinite number of real parts of time, passing in succession and exhausted one after another, appears so evident a contradiction that no man, on should think, whose judgement is not corrupted, instead of being improved, by the sciences, would ever be able to admit to it.'

He admits that the universe had a beginning. It therefore follows that there must have been a beginner (God). It is absurb to say that nothing caused something (the universe). But it is not absurb to say that someone brought something into existence from non-existence. All the writer was trying to prove is that there must ultimately be an uncaused cause (which he assumes to be God).

[Backglass]

It is absurb to say that nothing caused something (the universe).

No more absurd than it being created by an invisible, supernatural being that needs 10% of your income.

[cowshrptrn]

Just becasue something begins doens't mean SOMONE needs to begin it. What's with this inferiority complex that some of the more agressively religious people seem to have? Just because something began does NOT mean that something liek a person, or a living being needed to start it, the big bang coudl have been when the universe imploded upon itself or when 2 dimensions collided causing a tear, or the numerous theories that people have that dont' involve some unexplainable presence. While all of these are very theoretical, the ones i believe are ones that are based on our understanding of the universe and are a logical progression of observations and provide us with some greater insight into our own universe rather than saying it was some unexplainable force, end of story. Back in the days where we didnt' have the technology to explain things it was understandable that you coudl say stars were dead souls, but now we can SEE the stars so making up some religious explanation isnt' necesary

[MR. Nate]

Has anyone else noticed how tightly the validity of the Bible is tied to the existance of God?

I do not need "faith" to prove that I exist. I know I exist. I do not know if a god exists. Nobody has seen one in thousands of years, so a rational person (one that has not been brainwashed since birth) can only come to the conclusion that they do not exist.

Prove to me that you exist. Because you're responding? Nah, it has a better chance of being someone or something else. Because you're swearing at me so loud I can hear it? Nah, I don't really trust my ears. Because you just slapped me in the face? Nah, I'm a brain in a vat, some battery for a sentient robot, everything is just interpreted brain signals.
Do you see the idiocy of demanding proof? It doesn't exist. You take your very existence as a matter of faith, but you refuse to grant God the same courtesy.

Very nice dancing.

Thank you.

he created flawed creatures through his own mistake.

Here's where you go wrong. We were created with the choice to do good, or not. We weren't flawed, but we were given the opportunity to decide our charechter. If we didn't have that choice, then we're not doing anything, either good or bad, were following our moral programming. But we messed up. We chose to do the wrong thing.

He also lets horrible things happen to these models like a twisted child with a magnifying glass lighting fire to ants. Sure he could stop it, but why not let them suffer a little!

A twisted child is CAUSING ants to burn. God ALLOWS the effects of sin to occur, because it demonstrates our need for Him. Not only to be rescued from the effects of sin here on earth, but in the future.

Even though he IS A GOD (and therfor needs nothing or noone), for some reason he needs humans to worship him to make him feel important. For some odd reason, he wants people to choose this of their own free will (because he could easily just snap a finger and make it so), BUT if they DONT choose him they will toast forever is some fiery BBQ.

You're right when you say He needs nothing or no one. He doesn't need us. Which is why it is a demonstration of Love for us that He allows us to exist. He wants us to love Him, and we can't do that unless we choose it freely. (Ever tried to MAKE someone love you?)

If he wanted everyone to love him, he could have instilled that into every newborn child (which are all born atheists BTW, only to be indoctrinated later).

Alvin Plantinga argues that God DID instill knowledge of Himself into everyone, which is why so many people believe He exists, and it flies in the face of your speculation. And he's on pretty solid ground, epistemologically. But if God implanted Love for Himself in us, would we freely choose it? or would we be doing it as a result of programming?

I just find the concept of any gods silly.

Really? I hadn't noticed. I figured you were the Pope.

It makes no sense. It's not an argument, it's a strange fable, and unless you take the 'bible as truth' as your first premise, it's barmy. Which leads us to ask, why take the bible as truth in the first place?

How is asserting that a crime needs punisment "blarmy"? Sin means death. Period. We sinned. Someone had to Die.

So some sicko child murderer could be stopped but God allows it to happen because hey...he gave free will to the poor kid?

He could not have been stopped without destroying on his free will. In addition, he may, at some point in the future, repent, also of his free will, and come to God. Either way, God has allowed that murder to occur because the ultimate effects of it are better than if it had not occured. And when I say ultimate, I mean eternal.

Well you convinced me...

YES!!!

btw welcome to CC

Thank you, I am enjoying both the games and the forums immensly.

[MR. Nate]

the big bang coudl have been when the universe imploded upon itself or when 2 dimensions collided causing a tear, or the numerous theories that people have that dont' involve some unexplainable presence

Where did the Universe come from? Where did the 2 demensions come from? Where did the stuff that went BANG come from?

Hey, I got to ask some questions!

[cowshrptrn]

I'm willing to say i dont' know, i'm comfortable saying that. I don't need some made up explanation to set my mind at ease, since i know that some things are impossible to find out, or that we dont' have the knowledge to find it out.

Its like someone four hundred years ago saying, well then how does that star glow if it's not a diamond that Zeus glued to the sky? well we now have the technology (telesopes) and the background to answer that

[Backglass]

Where did the Universe come from? Where did the 2 demensions come from? Where did the stuff that went BANG come from?

Hey, I got to ask some questions!

I'll use a Nate/Jay answer.

The universe has always been here. It is infinite and without beginning or end. We however are not and therefor cannot begin to comprehend it. The universe works in mysterious ways. Lo for it is written, by me.

[demigod]

At the end of the day all (correction most) religions are only attempting to explain why.

Science attempts to explain how.

The answers to these will be different. In my opinion any learned 'religious (read Christian as this is the topic)' is behooved to understand science to explain how the universe came into existence and understand their religious teaching to understand why it came into existence. Similarly, those who focus only on the 'how' should also try to discover their own thoughts on the 'why' question since asking how does not get you an answer to why just as much as asking why does not get you any closer to answering how.

The creation story of the bible explains why - it does not explain how. In the same way someone now says "I like the sunset" or "I prefer the sunrise" (which is a scientifically absurd statement since we know that the sun remains where it is and it is only the earth's rotation why provides the phenomenon of the sun 'rising' or 'setting') the creation story should be limited to explaining the why and not the how since the language it was written in is not intended to be historical, interpreted as fact. For those who do not believe the bible (or any other religious manuscript) it is a disservice to any debate, to force the other side to accept that the bible (or any other manuscript) explains 'how' - just as it is a disservice for a religious person to explain the 'how' by saying 'you need faith'.

[Backglass]

Has anyone else noticed how tightly the validity of the Bible is tied to the existance of God?

Well, I have noticed how tightly everything in your religion hinges on the bible being true. If it is false the card house falls, which explains the unweilding, concrete belief in it's entire contents by the indoctrinated.

Prove to me that you exist. Because you're responding? Nah, it has a better chance of being someone or something else. Because you're swearing at me so loud I can hear it? Nah, I don't really trust my ears. Because you just slapped me in the face? Nah, I'm a brain in a vat, some battery for a sentient robot, everything is just interpreted brain signals.

<TOKE> How do I know that the color RED to ME, is the same as RED to YOU?! What if our universe is just a speck of dust in a WHOLE OTHER LARGER UNIVERSE!?

DUDE!

Do you see the idiocy of demanding proof? It doesn't exist. You take your very existence as a matter of faith, but you refuse to grant God the same courtesy.

No, but I see the idiocy of believing in fables & fairy tales. You see, I am not a god. Are we equals now? Your god is subject to the same rules as I now?

An unprovable theory is the perfect religious cop-out. I will give the bibles author(s) & theologans credit for thinking it through and covering the bases. You have come up with an explanation for every crack in the sidewalk..."Thats not a fault in the pour, thats a intentional artistic element".

Thank you.

Your welcome! "Theological Diversion & Tango - 101" was a good choice.

Here's where you go wrong. We were created with the choice to do good, or not. We weren't flawed, but we were given the opportunity to decide our charechter. If we didn't have that choice, then we're not doing anything, either good or bad, were following our moral programming. But we messed up. We chose to do the wrong thing.

Speak for yourself...not all of us messed up and need to be born again & again & again. I got it right the first time.

A twisted child is CAUSING ants to burn. God ALLOWS the effects of sin to occur, because it demonstrates our need for Him. Not only to be rescued from the effects of sin here on earth, but in the future.

Wow. He allows, say genocide and child rapists to do their bidding in order for the rest of us to realize we need him? Excuse me but your gods a twisted individual. I would say, were he real, that your god is causing it to happen. After all, "He's got the whole worlds in his hands!".

Or doesnt he. Is he in control or not? I just cant buy into the whole "he set the reaction in motion and now he cant/wont intervene" angle.

You're right when you say He needs nothing or no one. He doesn't need us. Which is why it is a demonstration of Love for us that He allows us to exist. He wants us to love Him, and we can't do that unless we choose it freely. (Ever tried to MAKE someone love you?)

Ever tried to get a dog to watch TV? Thats how I feel right now.

Alvin Plantinga argues that God DID instill knowledge of Himself into everyone, which is why so many people believe He exists, and it flies in the face of your speculation. And he's on pretty solid ground, epistemologically. But if God implanted Love for Himself in us, would we freely choose it? or would we be doing it as a result of programming?

Well, he didnt do a very good job as only a small percantage of the worlds population is in your camp and your numbers are dwindling...by .08 percent annualy in the US and canada alone. (source) At this rate, christianity will be a minority in the US by 2042.

I believe it is because we are still (dare I say) evolving and our still relatively primitive minds have a hard time with the finality of death, most likely a self-preservation instinct. Believing in a fairy tale afterlife and a grand puppeteer takes the burden off our shoulders and helps to rationalize the worlds injustices. It's Diety Valium.

Really? I hadn't noticed. I figured you were the Pope.

Know where I can get one of those giant penis hats he wears? I am already planning for next halloween.

Thank you, I am enjoying both the games and the forums immensly.

As am I.

As a slight departure as the year closes, I would like to thank jay & nate for being here as they have done me a great service. I was a closet athiest since I can remember. Even as a child I always thought the religious were a little nuts & surely didnt believe these crazy stories. But I never said anything as "athiest" is still a dirty word to a degree. The closest I came was checking "None" on the hospital form when my children were born. I just kept my beliefs to myself and refered to myself as agnostic, as I was concerned with retribution, ostrasism and other similiar words I cant spell.

Now, thanks to Jay (and recently Nate) and this forum in general, I have realized that I was doing myself and others like myself a disservice with my silence. I am now proudly an athiest, and no longer afraid to tell anyone should they ask my religious preference. Thanks to you all.

..and Merry Christmas, Hannukah, Kwanzaa, etc or just happy holidays like me!

[cowshrptrn]

Well it's starting to creep more and more into the how according to alot of people. Many people think we were created by god, that is the church saying HOW we were created. The bible can give some peopel a purpose in life, if they feel they don't know what they're doing in life.

[demigod]

To say we were created by God does not answer the how question because it doesn't explain how God created us.

As a side note - you seem to imply that the church is one and the same thing with the bible by saying that the church tries to explain how... I'm not sure that that is the case. The bible is the constant (as a text), the church is people's interpretation of it - that is why you get so many different church demoninations - baptist, anglican, catholic, orthodox.

[cowshrptrn]

I guess i've been getign a rather slanted view of christians who believe we were created by god then. I knwo some people are bible literalists (who say god made us, that is how it happened, end of story), but i also knwo that most people aren't bible literalists and regard the bible as metaphor, which suits your assertion.

I'm all for relgiion when it stays out of the way of hard facts, and assertions which have some evidence behind them. It provides a good place for people to network, and provides a good outlet for charity and provides morals to people who need to have some greater punishment than "its bad for society" to beware of.

[demigod]

I would say that all Christians still believe they are made by God! As per my previous comments - science and philosophy can point to an uncaused cause who created the universe, that is, God. If that is the cause it would seem logical to assume he made us. However, to answer how God made us is not necessarily found from a literal interpretation of the bible as you say, rather, I think modern science gets us closer to the answer. It's about reading each part of the bible in it's correct, historic and sociologic, context. Since the bible answers the why question it inherently assumes that God made us - but does not necessary (hence the different interpretations) say how he did it.

[MR. Nate]

I'm willing to say i dont' know, i'm comfortable saying that. I don't need some made up explanation to set my mind at ease, since i know that some things are impossible to find out, or that we dont' have the knowledge to find it out.

Does it strike you as at all inconsistent to say that you don't have an explanation for the universe, and you're comfortable with that, but you're prepared to tar and feather me for not having an explanation for everything that God has done? You have faith in science. You don't KNOW, but you're ok with that, you're sure science will eventually provide the answer. But if I say the same thing about God, and the piranha's come out. There's a double standard here: Faith in science and faith in God are both still faith.

I have noticed how tightly everything in your religion hinges on the bible being true.

Thus, why I defend it's validity.

You see, I am not a god. Are we equals now? Your god is subject to the same rules as I now?

I'm arguing from the lesser to the greater. In the same way we cannot empirically prove the existence of other minds, we cannot empirically prove the existence of God.

I will give the bibles author(s) & theologans credit for thinking it through and covering the bases.

I'm not sure, but this may have been a backhanded compliment.

Wow. He allows, say genocide and child rapists to do their bidding in order for the rest of us to realize we need him? Excuse me but your gods a twisted individual. I would say, were he real, that your god is causing it to happen.

You are excused, for now. God allows sin to occur because He is unwilling to impede our free will. The sickos in the world are doing evil because that is their choice, just like it's your choice to reject God, and my choice to (try) to live for Him. However, at some point, that time of choice will be over, and everyone will be accountable for what they have done. That goes for the child rapists, the children, you, me, and Jean Kambanda.

At this rate, christianity will be a minority in the US by 2042

Is this an appeal to the masses? That's a logical fallacy. By that argument, the athiests had better toss in the towel because globally, you guys are REALLY the minority.

[Lone.prophet]

As a finishing touch god created the dutch

[mightyal]

Non-believers are a majority in the U.K..

[jay_a2j]

Non-believers are a majority in the U.K..

As if that is something to beat on your chest about....

[MeDeFe]

You know, I actually think it is.

[Mirak]

Non-believers are a majority in the U.K..

As if that is something to beat on your chest about....

Beating your chest is a primitive gesture we leave to the religiously zealous

[Knight of Orient]

do all the non believers here celebrate christmas? ...........................juas curious

[happysadfun]

Hey, Backglass:

If you get together a group of about twenty people and write a three-thousand-odd paged book that gets 2.1 billion people following it, give me a call.

[misscrystal]

Hey, Backglass:

If you get together a group of about twenty people and write a three-thousand-odd paged book that gets 2.1 billion people following it, give me a call.

Don't worry, Backglass, you've got 2000 years to do it in