Mars Map: On Hold indefinatitly.

[Juan_Bottom]

It's coming along. The map is pretty small, no? Is it going to look ok when blown up?

[jiminski]

hey Red,

I really feel that you are not utilising the possible strengths of a Mars map.. I mean no offense at all and i realise this is in the early stage. But the embryo of this idea looks like it could be as valid to a map of the Mediterranean.

This is a map in space and the room for imagination is almost boundless... perhaps it could be a little more .. well Spacey.

[RedBaron0]

It's coming along. The map is pretty small, no? Is it going to look ok when blown up?

Small? The map is 800 x 400, I don't have much room to go length wise, the bottom will have space for a legend, bonus structure, etc.

hey Red,

I really feel that you are not utilising the possible strengths of a Mars map.. I mean no offense at all and i realise this is in the early stage. But the embryo of this idea looks like it could be as valid to a map of the Mediterranean.

This is a map in space and the room for imagination is almost boundless... perhaps it could be a little more .. well Spacey.

Oh I know, it's still cut and dry... maybe I'm not getting the process of making a map completely yet. I figured the frills came later on in the process... well trying to sell the idea should be first I guess Before I work any more gameplay/bonus, etc. I'll work on adding some of the snazzy things that'll give the map more... personality.

[RedBaron0]

Added legend: all bonuses are arbitrary and subject to change
Added grey circles out in space show where relics could go. 2 are set in stone; the position of the spaceship yard relic on Utopia Planitia(in the ocean just east of Syrtis Major and the 'Face'(In the ocean north of Margaritifer Terra - the true location of the 'Face' on the surface of Mars, Cydonia Mensae)
Alien relic bonus written in an alien langauge font in pink
The title of "Blue Mars" is also subject to change

Hopefully this adds some snazz to the map. I do want to add something to the ocean layer something that gives off alien vibes... just haven't found anything to play with to add to the map that I like.

[gdeangel]

I can't tell which map is the more current one.

I like this one (without all the tera-forming nonsense):

I have no idea what Gimp is, but I'm assuming you will superimpose a transparency with labels for different named regions of the planet?

As to my idea about what else you might put on there, I found a good source for information about information on the various landers and such that might be out there:

http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/missions/log/

So there should be plenty of interesting junk that you can populate graphically onto the map, as well as the rover paths of the actual rovers that did traverse the landscape.

[RedBaron0]

Gimp is a image editing program, like Photoshop(but free!)

The map highest up in the most current. The map you have there is the same one I have as a base.

I'd like more input before I think about changing back to a more natural Mars than the current map. I'm well versed in Mars, as a Earth & Space Science Major(consentration in Astronomy) So I know a fair amount about missions such as Viking, Mariner, Sojourner, Spirit & Oppertunity, and Phoneix. Not to mention failed missions like Beagle II. If that helps anyone make a desission on the map

[gdeangel]

Gimp is a image editing program, like Photoshop(but free!)

The map highest up in the most current. The map you have there is the same one I have as a base.

I'd like more input before I think about changing back to a more natural Mars than the current map. I'm well versed in Mars, as a Earth & Space Science Major(consentration in Astronomy) So I know a fair amount about missions such as Viking, Mariner, Sojourner, Spirit & Oppertunity, and Phoneix. Not to mention failed missions like Beagle II. If that helps anyone make a desission on the map

Then I think you're the right person to be making this map with "true-to-fact" information. If you think about it, the "blue mars" map is basically another sci-fi map - you might as well pick something recognizable from well known fiction and go with that (ignoring the copyright issue for the moment). It's more challenging to do the actual historical research to create tie-in to good gameplay and decent graphics, but it sounds like you wouldn't have much of a learning curve to get up. A true to life map will get people's attention who know are into astronomy and the mars missions. If you think about it, there really is no other candidate for this type of map, while there are a near unlimited supply of material to do "fiction planets" from.

[MrBenn]

I can't tell which map is the more current one.

I agree!

It helps if you post your latest update in the thread so that it is possible to relate feedback to a specific image

[RedBaron0]

Alright, I'll see what I can come up with over the weekend. Look for an update by Tuesday at the latest.

[RedBaron0]

Change of plans with work being so crazy at the moment, Thursday for sure since I have off from work, and will have time to get some stuff together.

[RedBaron0]

Click image to enlarge.

Alright this map the plan as I'm thinking right now should work as follows:

-->The legend will go into the bottom right(needs to be added)

-->The bottom left landscape of Mars will have small representations of various landers and rovers. This will be a bonus by itself, each vehicle will connect to each other and to the main map, to the acual territory in which the vehicle is located on Mars.
Landers: Viking 1, Viking 2, Phoenix
Rovers: Pathfinder(Sojourner), Spirit, Opportunity
When I say, "they'll connect to each other" I mean 1 to the other, etc. not each one connecting to every vehicle. Possible breakdown of the bonus as 1 large bonus(5-6ish) for all vehicles then mini bonuses for holding all rovers, or landers(2-3ish)

-->Territory borders are tenative. I will be putting some impassable mountain borders in places. I use the atlas I have and add these borders to areas names "Montes" Mountains on Mars are generally around impact basins rather than chains on Earth which involve tectonic activity, so the mountains won't be overly extensive, but I'll try and be as liberal as possible.

-->Issues: There will have to be wrap from every territory from the east/west edges of the map. Those borders I'll have to be sure match up from side to side.
Valles Marineris I want to be a impassible border, but I'm stumped on how to protray it on the map as a canyon. I could use a mountain border around it and make it a pass between the 3 volcanos and Acidalia Planitia. Probably would be part of one of these territories and have a 1 way attack one direction or the other.
I may also add the "Face" for giggles

I'll field your questions and am very open to your suggestions. I've got a fair amount to school work do that's due Monday and Tuesday but I'll get to things piece by piece as I get time.

[RedBaron0]

A more complete image to look at:

Click image to enlarge.

[Juan_Bottom]

This map has a way to go yet. It looks more like a draft than a CC map.
I'm confused by the spacecraft too. Xanthe is linked to Viking 1, correct? So it's a map inside a map?

[RedBaron0]

Oh I know there's a ways to go, and then some... but from what I had before, just lines on a map, its more complete!

Yeah, the spacecraft is meant to be an inset map. I should put a mark on the territory where the landing site is(more or less) to show they're connected. The landers and rovers all connect to each other. The one black line connector between Phoenix and Opportunity connects the 2 bonuses together.

I'm figuring to color the edges of the borders to indicate bonuses. Right now I don't think I'll add my mountainous terrian to the edge of Valles Marineris I think it shows it imapassablity as is.

[Juan_Bottom]

So what are you doing for the bonuses then? Are you keeping the realistic theme? So like a territory/region with ice is a ++ or something?

[gdeangel]

Your "insert" rover map is really great looking. Although it's more of an overlay that an insert since you are connecting them up at multiple points. I am going to just throw out a suggestion, which is to put the rovers on the main map, as sub-territories embedded within a territory, and connect them up either with the colored lines (and then it would work like the NYC map subways, but you could call them "rover tracks" or something like that), or else use a "color coding symbol scheme", like the way the Prohibition Chicago map does with the colored guns, so you could have like color coded pairs of "lander" or "parachute" type symbols that can attack each other. I just suggest this because I have never seen an "overlay" sub map quite like this... but visually I think the rover landscape is great.

If you wanted to keep the graphic layout with a submap, you could put the rovers on the ground and then have the overlay map be a map of orbiters, which would then make sense that they connect up (like radio transmission of something) to a few of the Rovers in different places.

As for a bonus structure, if you chose to go the route I describe above, I think you could give a +2 bonus for holding any territory with a rover + the embedded rover, and a +1 for each orbiter if you hold a rover. All orbiters would start neutral. If you wanted gameplay more like Arms Race, you could start everyone in the orbiters, and have the rovers all be neutral, with one way attack only from orbiters down to Rovers. And make all of "rover" ground territories start as 3 neutral, but the ground territories in between would start out with just a 1 nuetral, so it is easy to knock out a rover from another rover on the ground.

Oh yeah, and if you make the orbiter-to-ground paths 1-way, then you need to put somewhere on the ground something like a "crashed star-wars program anti-satellite missile" that can bomb out the orbiters just so you don't end up with a never ending game situation. I know, its a little lame...

However, if you don't choose to change up the maps with orbiters and embedded rovers, I think that would still be cool. You could always call this Mars 1.0 to leave open possibility of adding on something like orbiters in a "sequel" map.

[RedBaron0]

Thanks! I think I'll take out the connections and put in tracks like you've suggested for the rovers. The landers become a bit harder to figure out how to connect... but I think it'd be best to put the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter on the map to connect up all 3 landers.

I think the NYC model works well here, there isn't a need to make a bonus for holding the rover/lander and the territory it's in. It's a line of territories on top of the landscape connected to each other.

I'm also figuring that with a natural looking landscape that the territory circle may not be needed, except for the connect the dots of the rover and lander bonus structure. I will try and put some "88" on the map with and without the circles to see what looks better on the map.

Sorry I haven't updated in a while, school and work have been kicking my ass for the past week or so... I should have new updates ready by the weekend.

[whitestazn88]

if i could say one thing without reading everyone elses posts....

i would appreciate if we had a way of knowing what rover/lander goes to which territ other than just the words. a little symbol would be nice imo

[RedBaron0]

Been sidetracked lately, but I've been able to tweak some things, but no new image yet, look for an updated image, hopefully, Thursday.

[RedBaron0]

Click image to enlarge.

After a lot of time not really being able to do much, I've got an update for yas!

I got the rovers and landers on the main map with the inset still on the bottem, but not showing their connections.

Added a few numbers to see what they may look like... I also notice that I probably need to keep saving the image as a GIF instead of a JPEG, I lose a bit of color in the conversion.

I will probably add the "Face" as a 1 territory bonus with the next update. Hopefully I'll divide the territories into their bonuses by putting the colors around the edges of the territories, or should I just color the territory names so I don't cover up more of the map?

[reggie_mac]

gif is 256 colours max, jpeg is in the millions, jpeg all the way. just make sure you keep an eye on the compression rate and you'll notice a blurr efect happening near the edges of major colour shits the more you compress it.


even better yet 24bit Ppng but the file size is a bit larger.

[MrBenn]

This map is developing steadily; I've been watching from a distance

My main concern is about the gameplay at this stage...

1. I think I can see how the spaceships are supposed to work, although I would like the attacking relationships to be a lot clearer. The green/yellow lines on the main map are likely to confuse people. Personally, I would try and keep those attack lines on the inset bit.

2. Mars is a planet ( ), which means that the edges should wrap around... What Isn't clear to me, is whether Arcadia should share a border with Orca, in the same was as Alsaka/Kamchatka...

3. Do you plan to group the territories into regions at all? If so, have a think about how you are going to show them.

Graphics-wise,I find the map a little jarring on the eyes at the moment.

4. Your borders are fairly pixellated. A smaller brush with a soft edge will give a cleaner look, and there are a couple of other ways to make them look better... However, whichever way you do, they will probably require a complete redraw at some point. It's a total pain the first time (as I discovered during my Europe map), but is massively worth the results.

5. The background looks too much like a satellite photograph, which makes the whole thing look like it's just been copy+pasted together. Play around with the filters a bit to see if you can make it look more like something you've drawn by hand. RJs base image for the Iceland map was a satellite picture - Have a look at early versions of that to see how how he did it

6. I've got a similar opinion of the crafts - they look too much like they have been lifted straight from another picture. You could either play around with some filters, or try and create hand-drawn versions of them... You will find that attempting to create simplified representations of them by hand will really help you get to know your software, even if you end of using something totally different...

You've made a good start here - keep up the good work

[reggie_mac]

If i can make a suggestion, i would almost try to find a Digital Elevation Model of mars and render it using a program called Terragen, its should all be available for free and give a nice image to work from at the end (and accurate) it would also help if you wanted to go back down the path of 'terraformin' as you can set a datum and it can auto fill the oceans to that level. ( i may be able to help with this)

If that all seems a bit much, id run some filters over the main background image to try and remove some of the 'noise' that the image feels it has (something like a smart blur radius 10 threshold 10). It should help reduce the feeling of being a sat photo and make it feel a bit more map like.

I think if at all possible, the space ships shouldn't have any specail attacks, featurs etc, maybe just +1 auto deploy if you hold the area its in, but then again you could come up with some wicked that will work, what you have now just confuses the crap out of me. Once again, run some filters over the craft if you keep them to give them a more 'drawn' feel than a photographed feel.

I also think that you should not have the MRO as a territory if you keep the craft, maybe tie it in some how so other craft can attack each other, but i don't think it should be a territory itself.

Other than that, cool man, i love mars (id give my left nut to walk on it) and am looking forward to playing this map.

[gdeangel]

Nice work. The structure is awesome. Agreed there are some graphics "tough ups" to go, but that's not my forte. I will just throw out a suggestion to the people who are complaining about the "sat photo" nature of the background... why not go backwards by exaggerating that it is indeed an optical sat photo, rather than a "rendered" photo... it seems this doesn't need to look "drawn", just less "skinned". In fact, it would be better IMHO if it looked "photographic".

On to a few of the things I do get a bit more...

1) The orbiter: I think it's definitely got to be its own territory, otherwise things will get a little too "fluid" in the gameplay. The key to making it more or less fluid will be how many neutrals you start the orbiter with, and whether you make it one-way attack and/or have a special bomb attack. Adding those things will mean your legend will get croweded, so I think it's going to be better since the visuals are so spot on accurate that you don't muddy them up with tons of fine print (e.g., see AoR: 3... can't play that one without my reading glasses!)

2) The bonuses: Since there are no 'resource' boundaries (including population) that translate well into the classic RISK paradigm, I think it is perfectly acceptable to use the spacecraft as the basis of your continent bonus structure, and then have a "no continent" land area, which could be tweaked for gameplay based on what you want to use as your territory conversion rate. Think of a map like city mogul - it is completely possible to have a dominant strategy that completely ignores the "compact" bonus of the city block... same thing here if you choose to go with rover bonuses.

3) Visual representation of rovers: I like the fact that they look like little cutaway push pins. In fact, you might want to try to make them look more like crumpled images that an amateur Mars observer has cut out and pasted up on the Map of mars they might have hanging on the wall next to their telescope. To make the "overlay" connections clearer, rather than the abbreviation of the first letter of the craft on your main map, I would suggest (I guess this will be involved graphics stuff), using a different color filter over each craft in the insert map, and then make the icon for that craft use the same color on the main map. That way its immediately obvious which craft goes where. Then I would also (gulp) say you should nix the bright, straight, lines on the main map between rovers and instead draw in some more winding, detailed tracks that actually look like a rover drove through sand. It would only take one line in the legend to explain: "Rovers can attack adjacent rovers on the same rover track."

I think this map is really looking great! So much more interesting than the terraform map. You can actually study this map while your waiting for your turn and its stuff that people are really interested in in the RW!

[RedBaron0]

With a natural look to the map, Mars is a whole other planet, why not show it off? Iceland was a beautiful rendering from the sat image, if I start fiddling with colors, I think you lose some of the essance of the map by changing it too much.

I know I'm going to have to redraw the border, but that's okay, it allows me to figure out the wrap around effect. I do want to breakup the land territories into bonus structures. The spacecraft won't be the only bonuses. I'm trying to figure the best way to represent that on the map, colored text, borders, something to that effect. The more I cover up though, the more I feel is lost.

I am going to try moving the filters around and see what I get. I did try and turn down the transprancy , and the background got way too light, even at 75%. Mars is the "Red" planet, is should look like it!

My time has be limited lately, and I try and do things a little bit at a time... I'll do my best to impliment things and post images when I get a chance!