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Postby jay_a2j on Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:47 pm

"The attack from false religions. The book of Koran is a jumbled mess containing no prophecy at all. The Koran attacks Christians, Jews, and the doctrines of the Bible. The Jehovah Witnesses (JW's) claim that Michael the archangel became Jesus. They deny Christ's deity. The Mormons deny Christ's deity. The Catholics pervert the Bible by teaching the necessity of the sacraments for salvation, etc. Wiccan witches reject the Word of God as fables. New Agers teach that there are millions of ways to God, just follow the light; but the Word of God proclaims that there is ONLY one way to Heaven and that's through Jesus Christ! Every false religion in one way or another twists and corrupts the Word of God. The attack is against the Word of God!!!"


Taken from one of the links in my previous post.
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Postby vtmarik on Mon Dec 04, 2006 10:58 pm

The Bible is the word of God because The Bible is the word of God.

That's a tautology, not logic.

The Da Vinci Code passes itself off as fact, but we all know it's fiction.


And I've finally found a contradiction in the Bible!

-------------------------
"Thou shall not suffer a witch to live"
"Thou shalt not kill"
-------------------------
So it's a sin to kill, but we should kill witches? That, my friends, is a truly great mondo.

Definition: Mondo
A statement that sounds like it should make sense, but actually doesn't no matter how hard you try.
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Postby MeDeFe on Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:05 am

jay, maybe you should actually spend some time reading the bible instead of web pages and pay some attention and use the common sense that people usually have. "Scientific accuracy" and "medical knowledge" as it's called is old news, it's impudent to believe that this knowledge could only be found in the bible. Far more likely this knowledge was written down and later became part of the bible than that someone was sitting around and was suddenly inspired by god and wrote down a sentence like "blood is life" and everyone went "aha! That explains why people die if the bleed".
Sorry jay, but you can't pass that off as divinely inspired wisdom.

The authors of later books of course knew about the older books and had read them, too. It's no big surprise if they correspond to each other and refer to each other. This is called "intertextuality".
There is also something I like to call "poetic freedom", this applies to expressions like "the stars are uncountable"as well as to sentences like "he hangs the earth on nothing".
And how long do you think a papyrus scroll or parchment lasts? Sooner or later will become unreadable, so it has to be copied regularly if you want to preserve the text. And do you have any idea how many errors and changes both intended and unintended find their way into a text when it is copied by hand and not by using ctrl+c, ctrl+v? I study linguistics and I can tell you this: lots.
An additional prophecy or a small change in the wording isn't hard to facilitate, we tend to see texts as something static, but they really change all the time.

If a person fulfills several prophecies that point to him as the messiah he might be doing it on purpose. If Jesus had a cause he thought it was worth to die for he might have staged the last few years of his life as the prophesied messiah and been using the subsequent attention direceted towards his person to propagate his ideals.
I mean, even today some people are prepared to die for what they perceive to be a worthy cause or a holy war.




The "Old" and "New" Testaments were both assembled over the same period of time, practically simultaneously with the Torah. The different religious groups wish to make a clearer distinction between each other certainly played a part here.
Before this the different books were literally separate pieces of writing on one topic. Like different textbooks on english grammar. They are different but they deal with the same topic.
A consensus within a major part of the christian movement on the order of the different books was only reached after several hundred years. And even then Catholics and Orthodox Christians didn't agree, if I remember my source correctly. I don't remember it all, but it's in the introduction to the King James authorized version of the bible, Oxford University Press. I'll add the editors and the year when I get around to check it. They also provide a nice list of books they used.
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Postby Aradhus on Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:16 am

vtmarik wrote:
And I've finally found a contradiction in the Bible!


I'd call that a sargasm. Mind you don't overdose.

I don't know the number, but I know there are at least 1000 contradictions in the bible. I think its closer to 2000, though.
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Postby heavycola on Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:04 am

Aradhus wrote:
vtmarik wrote:
And I've finally found a contradiction in the Bible!


I'd call that a sargasm. Mind you don't overdose.

I don't know the number, but I know there are at least 1000 contradictions in the bible. I think its closer to 2000, though.


To quote some academic or other:

The OT god is "arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully"

that's a contradiction with the NT god IMHO.
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Postby Mirak on Tue Dec 05, 2006 2:28 pm

heavycola wrote:To quote some academic or other:

The OT god is "arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully"


Yeah, but he still loves you...........
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Postby jay_a2j on Tue Dec 05, 2006 2:37 pm

Let me make this my last post on this thread: (God willing)


"I get all sorts of letters from people wanting "proof" that the Bible is God's Word. What is "proof." Is it not relevant? Proof is based upon evidence. The evidence that I might consider as "proof" of something may not be enough evidence for you. You can present the same evidence to 10 different people and they may not all except it as proof. Hence, some people believed that the earth was round hundreds of years ago simply because Isaiah 40:22 said that it was (or because they saw that the moon was round). Yet, there were also plenty of skeptics back then who adamantly proclaimed that they'd go to their graves believing that the earth was flat. Everyone who believed the earth was flat was wrong, but they were sincerely wrong. Likewise, many people today are sincerely wrong about the Word of God. To me, the Word of God itself is proof enough that It is the eternal, inspired, infallible, incorruptible, preserved Word of God. If it is not enough proof for you, then your fate is in your own hands."


Taken from: http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Bible/gods_word.htm
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Postby Mirak on Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:54 pm

^^Pathetic!
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Postby vtmarik on Tue Dec 05, 2006 4:45 pm

Like I said before, "The bible is the word of god because it says that it is" is not evidence nor is it logical.

The Koran proclaims to be the word of god as well, but you and those of your ilk dismiss it as an incomplete book. The Torah also claims to be the word of god, but it doesn't talk about jesus, so it's obviously wrong.

But since it follows what people have repeated to you and you have repeated to yourself, it is the word of god.

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Postby heavycola on Wed Dec 06, 2006 5:16 am

Yet, there were also plenty of skeptics back then who adamantly proclaimed that they'd go to their graves believing that the earth was flat.


Rev 7:1 - "And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth"

Job 38:10 - "When did you ever give dawn his orders,
assign the rising sun his post, to grasp the corners of the world
and shake the wicked out of it"
(NB the sun doesn't 'rise', the earth turns)

Daniel 3:10 - the king "saw a tree of great height at the centre of the earth ... reaching with its top to the sky and visible to the earth's farthest bounds."

etc.

etc.
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Postby jay_a2j on Wed Dec 06, 2006 5:24 am

the "four corners of the earth" refers to the NSEW, basically meaning "the whole earth" not that there actually is corners.
Last edited by jay_a2j on Wed Dec 06, 2006 5:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby heavycola on Wed Dec 06, 2006 5:25 am

jay_a2j wrote:the "four corners of the earth" means whatever i decide it means. Literal interpretation of the bible stops where i decicde it should.


Compass points are not corners. And globes don't have corners.
Last edited by heavycola on Wed Dec 06, 2006 5:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby jay_a2j on Wed Dec 06, 2006 5:26 am

"To him who believes, no explanation is necessary; to him that believeth not, no explanation is possible."
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Postby vtmarik on Wed Dec 06, 2006 5:28 am

jay_a2j wrote:"To him who believes, no explanation is necessary; to him that believeth not, no explanation is possible."


Cop-out! Cop-out! Cop-out!
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Postby heavycola on Wed Dec 06, 2006 5:28 am

jay_a2j wrote:"To him who believes, no explanation is necessary; to him that believeth not, no explanation is possible."


^^^ pointless response. Typing that means nothing. it certainly doesn't turn compass directions into 'corners' or a globe into a cube. Try answering instead of these cheesy platitudes.
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Postby MeDeFe on Wed Dec 06, 2006 6:09 am

poetic freedom, there isn't really any other explanation.
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Postby jay_a2j on Wed Dec 06, 2006 6:10 am

jay_a2j wrote:"To him who believes, no explanation is necessary; to him that believeth not, no explanation is possible."
THE DEBATE IS OVER...
PLAYER57832 wrote:Too many of those who claim they don't believe global warming are really "end-timer" Christians.

JESUS SAVES!!!
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Postby heavycola on Wed Dec 06, 2006 6:18 am

jay_a2j wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:"To him who believes, no explanation is necessary; to him that believeth not, no explanation is possible."


OK, responding to your trite nonsesne it is, then.

"It means the compass points" sounds like an explanation to me, expecially since it isn't mentioned anywhere in the text. It's an explanation, and an interpretation, that you NEED to make because you can't argue with the roundness of the earth. 100 years ago and i reckon you would have.
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Postby MeDeFe on Wed Dec 06, 2006 6:18 am

The best answer to the original post comes from vtmarik so far. He said that he simply believes, he doesn't claim to have had revelating experiences, mircaulous healings or other things like that.

Seems like a completely honest answer to me.



Now we just need happysadfun, ambrose and some others in here and we can start debating since jay decided to quit of his own free will.
But jay, if you feel like answering to my other post instead of throwing quotes around, by all means do so.
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Postby LewisJB3 on Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:59 am

sorry it has taken me so long to right back again, as far as I know I completely on the same side as Jay, (God's side.) I understand what he said about not being able to explain to those who don't beleive. However I shall try again, as to the four corners of the earth that is used in multiple books even from today, (yes even on your side of the argument) it simply means the whole earth. Now I want to know if you beleive in other living things that we can't see such as demons, and angels. because if there is proof for them then where did they come from.
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Postby heavycola on Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:22 am

That phrase came from the bible, and it's purdy, so it's turned into a cliche since then.

In Job, God himself talks about laying the foundations of the earth and about holding it by the corners to shake out the wickedness.

God is perfect. Metaphors are not, they are falsehoods. God is the way, the TRUTH and the light. God does not lie. Therefore god does not speak in metaphors. Therefore he thinks the earth is flat.
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Postby qeee1 on Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:35 am

Pi is exactly 3!
Frigidus wrote:but now that it's become relatively popular it's suffered the usual downturn in coolness.
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Postby LewisJB3 on Wed Dec 06, 2006 12:02 pm

metaphores, false hoods..... there are alot of pictures in the bible some more complicated than others. Such as the brazen serpent being put up on the pole in the wilderness and then Jesus being put up on the cross. This is quite simple, the four corners refer to the whole world. I don't understand what the big deal is about here.
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Postby MeDeFe on Wed Dec 06, 2006 4:49 pm

That still doesn't explain why you have faith in god, which was the original question.
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Postby stinkycheese on Wed Dec 06, 2006 5:04 pm

LewisJB3 wrote:sorry it has taken me so long to right back again, as far as I know I completely on the same side as Jay, (God's side.) I understand what he said about not being able to explain to those who don't beleive. However I shall try again, as to the four corners of the earth that is used in multiple books even from today, (yes even on your side of the argument) it simply means the whole earth. Now I want to know if you beleive in other living things that we can't see such as demons, and angels. because if there is proof for them then where did they come from.


Wow, I wish the people who post in Chritianity's defense would show some form of intelligence. Learn how to construct grammatically correct sentences and learn how to spell. You guys really make Chritians look like they are all retarded.

Not to mention the arguments you guys pose are bereft of any intelligence.
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