Abortion

[Juan_Bottom]

In effect, since we have heard no evidence which would lead us to draw a distinction between child, adult and unborn, abortion is justified iff murder of a grown adult would, under identical ethical circumstances, be justified.

Your gonna nead to clarify this for me. Because I can see a definite difference between all three. So I don't think you directly ment what you said...

[Napoleon Ier]

In effect, since we have heard no evidence which would lead us to draw a distinction between child, adult and unborn, abortion is justified iff murder of a grown adult would, under identical ethical circumstances, be justified.

Your gonna nead to clarify this for me. Because I can see a definite difference between all three. So I don't think you directly ment what you said...

There are obvious differences, yah, but there's no reason to consider one any less "human" than the other.

[Juan_Bottom]

In effect, since we have heard no evidence which would lead us to draw a distinction between child, adult and unborn, abortion is justified iff murder of a grown adult would, under identical ethical circumstances, be justified.

Your gonna nead to clarify this for me. Because I can see a definite difference between all three. So I don't think you directly ment what you said...

There are obvious differences, yah, but there's no reason to consider one any less "human" than the other.

I can't fault you there.
You're essentially saying that abortion is playing god with another(potential) persons life? Or am I reaching here?

[Neoteny]

In effect, since we have heard no evidence which would lead us to draw a distinction between child, adult and unborn, abortion is justified iff murder of a grown adult would, under identical ethical circumstances, be justified.

Your gonna nead to clarify this for me. Because I can see a definite difference between all three. So I don't think you directly ment what you said...

There are obvious differences, yah, but there's no reason to consider one any less "human" than the other.

Hey! Let's discuss "what exactly does humanity entail," again! Please!

[joecoolfrog]

So what do we agree on anything? Is there any middle ground on abortion? Cases of rape, possibility of the mother dying, fetus has already died, when the fetus is still basically blank cells, mutations, ect...? Any middle ground? Because, I want to make up my mind where I stand on this issue too.

Dude, seriously, you want to make your mind up on abortion, go think about it for yourself and follow what seems right to you. Don't be listening to the trite bullshit that gets bandied around in here. Anyone can argue the issue either way and many do just for the joy of arguing. Opinions one way or the other can easily be 'justified' by religion, politics, statistics, bullshit... all that really matters is what YOU think is right.

I already made my mind up a long time ago. I just want thes f*cknuts to stop arguing with each other. Thought I could get them to look at me for the moment. Dumbasses....

In effect, since we have heard no evidence which would lead us to draw a distinction between child, adult and unborn, abortion is justified iff murder of a grown adult would, under identical ethical circumstances, be justified.

This line of thought by extension would also make contraception unethical yes ?

[Bertros Bertros]

In effect, since we have heard no evidence which would lead us to draw a distinction between child, adult and unborn, abortion is justified iff murder of a grown adult would, under identical ethical circumstances, be justified.

Your gonna nead to clarify this for me. Because I can see a definite difference between all three. So I don't think you directly ment what you said...

There are obvious differences, yah, but there's no reason to consider one any less "human" than the other.

You missed my point which is I don't, and don't think Juan should, really give a monkey's tumor what anyone else has to say on the issue when all they do is wrap it up in tired rhetoric and psuedo-intelligent insults. Oh and please for the love of all things small and furry stop saying fucking "yah" all the time, it makes you sound like even more of a pompous arrogant public school prick than you would otherwise, yah.

[Napoleon Ier]

Yuh-huh. No, but I wasn't referencing your post in any way, just making an observation about the state of progress within the debate, yah?

[tzor]

So what do we agree on anything? Is there any middle ground on abortion? Cases of rape, possibility of the mother dying, fetus has already died, when the fetus is still basically blank cells, mutations, ect...? Any middle ground? Because, I want to make up my mind where I stand on this issue too.

Oh yes absolutely, you should have seen it. It was somewhere several pages ago, me and Player finding middle ground actually agreeing with each other on some points while music played in the background.

Once that happened the only thing left was to insult each other on style and get into a discussion on euthanasia because that was the second "reason" proposed for abortions after the life of the mother.

We somehow avoided the rape case.

[tzor]

In effect, since we have heard no evidence which would lead us to draw a distinction between child, adult and unborn, abortion is justified iff murder of a grown adult would, under identical ethical circumstances, be justified.

There is one problem with this argument but otherwise it is a good statement. [irony] (The liberal elite will complain about your use of 'yah' but will probably miss your use of the three leter word for "if and only if" as though it was a spelling error.) [/irony] That is that there are no "identical ethical circumstances" where one person acts as a life support system to another, at least not for long term periods.

The question of euthanasia of the unborn is no different from the question of euthanasia of the born. The question of self defense (the life of the mother) is no different before or after birth save that once born it is almost impossible for the child to continue to be a threat to the life of the mother.

P.S. I'm not sure you intended it this way, but I won't leave it out. I decided to check my favorite online dictionary Webster's Unabridged. (I know I'm on the Oxfordoirans shit list now.) The definition for "yah" is "used to express disgust, contempt, defiance, or derision" and the Etymology, "probably imitative of the sound of retching."

And I always associated it with a faux Norweigian accent, sort of like a faux Canadian accent, eh? Or, like, you know, a faux Califorian accent.

[Dancing Mustard]

your comments which are ... angry pre-pubescent flaming.

A. Untrue.
B. Welcome to the gutter, so nice of you to join me.

It's such a shame that you keep ruining these otherwise decent threads with your childish trolling.

TROLL POWWWWWWWWWWWER!!!

Sorry, but I just find this a bit ironic, that someone who uses a sig like the one below, and practically preaches and encourages it, then tries to chastise someone else for it.

Well you came tantalisingly close to getting the joke... but it slipped right by you at the last minute. On the other hand, you scored top marks at being sanctimonious.

Bad luck, I'm sure you'll both fare better next time.

[Juan_Bottom]

So what do we agree on anything? Is there any middle ground on abortion? Cases of rape, possibility of the mother dying, fetus has already died, when the fetus is still basically blank cells, mutations, ect...? Any middle ground? Because, I want to make up my mind where I stand on this issue too.

Oh yes absolutely, you should have seen it. It was somewhere several pages ago, me and Player finding middle ground actually agreeing with each other on some points while music played in the background.

Once that happened the only thing left was to insult each other on style and get into a discussion on euthanasia because that was the second "reason" proposed for abortions after the life of the mother.

We somehow avoided the rape case.

So how do you feel about cases of rape then? I think that if the 'mother' is in no way phsycologically capable of going through with a rape pregnancy, then ya gotta do what you've gotta do. If only to save the mother. I couldn't see forcing someoone to go through with it. But of course, aborting it at the last minute would be a hypocritical decision, so I am ignoring it. Really though, this seems like an impossable question to ask of someone else.

[Napoleon Ier]

your comments which are ... angry pre-pubescent flaming.

A. Untrue.

Only if we define "angry pre-pubescant flaming" on a subjective and continuously-variable scale. Now, after that, it's all a vast game of Cuban Poker hosted by you, so I think most of us would want to say that in all objectivity, your comments being effectively at once unfunny and void of any actual intellectual content, they fell neatly within the set of angry pre-pubescant flames.

Well you came tantalisingly close to getting the joke... but it slipped right by you at the last minute. On the other hand, you scored top marks at being sanctimonious.

The only joke here Mustard, is the one everybody here with a capacity for critical thought greater than that of a clinically retarded ape is having at your expense.

[tzor]

We somehow avoided the rape case.

So how do you feel about cases of rape then?

This is a complex issue. To understand the problem we have to look at the essence of what rape is; violence directed in a sexual manner where loss of control and personal space violations are critical elements that play a part to the mental conditions of those who have to suffer from it.

Abortions aren't a magic pill (the morning after pill is a pill but while a potential abortifactant, I'm actually referring to surgical procedures here) and should not be treated as such. In one sense they are a subtler form of voilence and loss of control. Like the old saying that you shouldn't make any critical decisions immediately after the death of a loved one, making critical decisions immediately after a traumatic event is something that should be avoided if possible or brought into a group decision so that calmer heads can do what is right for everyone.

In one sense the problems associated with rape have nothing to do with pregnancy, the psycological trauma that results from it needs to be addressed as much as any othe physical problem or mental condition, whether the woman gets impregnated as a result or not.

Given this condition, rape should not be a "blank check" for abortion, but the emotional conditions that have resulted from that rape are valid factors to consider in the health and care of the woman.

Does that make sense?

[Bertros Bertros]

There is one problem with this argument but otherwise it is a good statement. [irony] (The liberal elite will complain about your use of 'yah' but will probably miss your use of the three leter word for "if and only if" as though it was a spelling error.) [/irony] That is that there are no "identical ethical circumstances" where one person acts as a life support system to another, at least not for long term periods.

...

P.S. I'm not sure you intended it this way, but I won't leave it out. I decided to check my favorite online dictionary Webster's Unabridged. (I know I'm on the Oxfordoirans shit list now.) The definition for "yah" is "used to express disgust, contempt, defiance, or derision" and the Etymology, "probably imitative of the sound of retching."

And I always associated it with a faux Norweigian accent, sort of like a faux Canadian accent, eh? Or, like, you know, a faux Califorian accent.

Looking in a dictionary of English (rather than American English) and being as both Monsieur Ier and myself are posting from Britain this would be the more definitive source one finds that the definition for "Yah" is something along the lines of an upper class affectation of the word yes. It pisses me off because it reminds me of whiny nasal girls in their blazers with their daddy's given me his credit card so lets go big it up, yah, attitude. What this has to do with being part of the liberal elite I have no idea but as thats probably the closest anyone has actually come to flaming me on these forums I'm going to go celebrate with some bubbles, yah.

[Napoleon Ier]

I'm French, not from the British aristocracy...

[Bertros Bertros]

I'm French, not from the British aristocracy...

That I think is patently clear. I was not suggesting you were from the British aristocracy, merely that during your time here you have adopted one of their less ingenious affectations.

[suggs]

Yah.

[Juan_Bottom]

Your views are fine by me. But...

Given this condition, rape should not be a "blank check" for abortion, but the emotional conditions that have resulted from that rape are valid factors to consider in the health and care of the woman.

I would never imply that rape is a blank check for abortion. It's not that all rape victims need or would like to have an abortion. But! as you said, is a special consideration....

[mandyb]

I think all you men should think....I mean REALLY think about what it would be like to pregnant with an unwanted baby, whatever the circumstances.
Sure abortion is horrible, but there's no getting away from the fact that mistakes happen, unwanted sex happens, rape happens.
Yes, there should be strict guidelines and time limits, and it shouldn't ever be an easy choice to make, but it should always be an option.

Rose Kennedy once said;
“If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament”
Truer words were never spoken.

[suggs]

Rose Kennedy once said;
“If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament”
Truer words were never spoken.

"You can't beat a good tit-wank" (Suggs)
I beg to differ.

[jiminski]

here's a quandary for our anti abortionist minority: if abortion is murder and all contraception is sin.... is it our moral duty to have sex up the pooper?

[mandyb]

here's a quandary for our anti abortionist minority: if abortion is murder and all contraception is sin.... is it our moral duty to have sex up the pooper?

Don't they frown on homosexuality too?

[jiminski]

here's a quandary for our anti abortionist minority: if abortion is murder and all contraception is sin.... is it our moral duty to have sex up the pooper?

Don't they frown on homosexuality too?

well yes sugar-plumb, but i meant a man and woman ... as man on man action rarely results in pregnancy.

[suggs]

here's a quandary for our anti abortionist minority: if abortion is murder and all contraception is sin.... is it our moral duty to have sex up the pooper?

Don't they frown on homosexuality too?

well yes sugar-plumb, but i meant a man and woman ... as man on man action rarely results in pregnancy.

Lets retain our dignified silence on that bleak September evening, Jim.

[mandyb]

here's a quandary for our anti abortionist minority: if abortion is murder and all contraception is sin.... is it our moral duty to have sex up the pooper?

Don't they frown on homosexuality too?

well yes sugar-plumb, but i meant a man and woman ... as man on man action rarely results in pregnancy.

A man and a woman?? I never heard of such a thing