Global Warming

[InkL0sed]

Player, thank God you exist.

That post was very interesting and enlightening. You have a rare ability (at least amongst people on this forum) to write posts that are simultaneously long, informative and clear.

[Juan_Bottom]

Player, thank God you exist.

That post was very interesting and enlightening. You have a rare ability (at least amongst people on this forum) to write posts that are simultaneously long, informative and clear.

Hey! What about me????

[jonesthecurl]

Player, thank God you exist.

That post was very interesting and enlightening. You have a rare ability (at least amongst people on this forum) to write posts that are simultaneously long, informative and clear.

Hey! What about me????

Don't ask "does my bum look big in this" - you might get an honest answer.

[Pedronicus]

honestly....global warming may or may not be happening, we don't really know yet. not enough data. and if it is happening, it's very arrogant of us to believe we cause it.

So we have chopped down thousands of square miles of rainforest.
More people than ever now have access to a car powered by an internal combustion engine.
And more people than ever have electricity (created by burning fossil fuels in power stations)

and all of this was done by who exactly? Chimpanzees that have evolved tool use to include chain saws?
and i suppose horses invented the combustion engine because they were fed up with being made to carry people on their backs?

Do me a favour. open your eyes and shut yer gob.

[Juan_Bottom]

Player, thank God you exist.

That post was very interesting and enlightening. You have a rare ability (at least amongst people on this forum) to write posts that are simultaneously long, informative and clear.

Hey! What about me????

Don't ask "does my bum look big in this" - you might get an honest answer.

Honestly do you guys think that my argument is stupid? I think that I am not without merit....

[Simon Viavant]

And so it descends into spam...

[InkL0sed]

Player, thank God you exist.

That post was very interesting and enlightening. You have a rare ability (at least amongst people on this forum) to write posts that are simultaneously long, informative and clear.

Hey! What about me????

I said you were a reasonable conspiracy theorist -- not a good poster

[Juan_Bottom]

And so it descends into spam...

Though PEDRONICUS doesn't have anything worthwhile to add(not trying to step on toes),

I want to continue. But I am also waiting for someone to address my last post. I want to keep a fair discussion going.

Also, I don't even call myself a conspiracy theorist. I am disheartened that others label me that . Though, at least I am also labeled reasonable.

[tzor]

global warming was invented by the same guy that invented the internet. Al Gore.

No. It was actually "invented" by the Iron Lady Margaret Thatcher.

She hanted to punish the coal unions and didn't trust Middle East oil for all the money in the world so she needed a convincing argument to get the environmentalists off her back when she started pushing nuclear power especially after the legacy of a few famous accidents in the US and USSR.

Global warming is only an excuse to push nuclear power.

[Juan_Bottom]

global warming was invented by the same guy that invented the internet. Al Gore.

No. It was actually "invented" by the Iron Lady Margaret Thatcher.

She hanted to punish the coal unions and didn't trust Middle East oil for all the money in the world so she needed a convincing argument to get the environmentalists off her back when she started pushing nuclear power especially after the legacy of a few famous accidents in the US and USSR.

Global warming is only an excuse to push nuclear power.

Holy crap!!! TZOR doesn't believe that global warming is man-made either? You are a much more eloquent speaker than me. A little help would surely be appreciated!

holy crap........

[Neoteny]

honestly....global warming may or may not be happening, we don't really know yet. not enough data. and if it is happening, it's very arrogant of us to believe we cause it.

It's also rather arrogant to think there's a god who gives a shit what we're doing, but there are millions of people who think that. How much data do we need to satisfy you, oh meek one?

[Neoteny]

NEOTENY quick question, how was this research done? I am specificaly asking if there was a difference in how they collected the data from today's CO2 levels VS. 100,000 years ago's CO2? And has anyone here heard that the Antartic ice core samples show that historically, temp rises, before CO2 levels do?-not an argument, just asking....

NEOTENY, you are correct that a petition signed by a bunch of engineers won't hold much sway, but the list of scientists includes 9,021 Ph.D.s, 6,961 at the master's level. I think it is unfair to outright dismiss them. Though, yes, it was a petition, so some of the 30,000 signatures were likely faked. And there are a lot of other scientists protesting around the world, but usually they are ignored.

And PLAYER57832, I can't tell which side you are on? Do you believe in global climate change???

I don't understand what you mean by this- "I see the answer was already posted. Half information can give a pretty wrong picture" -I have asked twice if I missed something. And I still can't see a direct correlation between todays temp, and any man-made cause. But then, you may be agreeing with me?

"Actually, the sheer number, if anything bodes to the lack of credibility"
I would like to point out that there is a butt-load more articles in favor of global warming. I was just trying to point out the falicy of saying, 'yeah, well more people agree with me.' But again,... you may be agreeing with me....
Also, now scientists are saying that our government is trying to edit, or force them not to publish anything that doesn't support global warming.....

You are 100% correct about the other planets/moons. Their atmospheres are completely different from our own(debri, pressure, atmospheric make-up, life). But I believe that isn't a sufficent arguement. I think it is silly to just outright dismiss it as coincidence. Coincidence that all planets heat up at the exact same time? I'm not even going to give any info away, cause this is fun to read about anyway.


Finally, I would like to add that I do agree that the Earths mean temperature is rising. I just don't believe that man is the cause. I think that it is solar warming.

I have no idea how ice cores are analyzed. I'm sure wikipedia will have some sort of summary. But as often as they are performed, I imagine that there is a standardized, generally accepted method of analyzing them.

Also, when I have a Ph.D. I'm sure I'll be able to sign similar petitions, but if I have no idea how the science works, I am lying to untold numbers of people. I just don't seriously think all those people are qualified enough to carry any weight. Also, remember, we are in an insolation depression according to the ice core, though I have no idea how that's determined.

[Neoteny]

Oh. And since skeptics like to use anecdotes during the winter, isn't it hot outside? Global warming exists!

[muy_thaiguy]

Oh. And since skeptics like to use anecdotes during the winter, isn't it hot outside? Global warming exists!

Actually it's been kind of cold here lately.

[Simon Viavant]

Oh. And since skeptics like to use anecdotes during the winter, isn't it hot outside? Global warming exists!

Actually it's been kind of cold here lately.

Ooh, it's been cold lately. I was wrong, global warming isn't happening after all!

[Neoteny]

Oh. And since skeptics like to use anecdotes during the winter, isn't it hot outside? Global warming exists!

Actually it's been kind of cold here lately.

But... it's hot where I am.

[tzor]

Holy crap!!! TZOR doesn't believe that global warming is man-made either? You are a much more eloquent speaker than me. A little help would surely be appreciated!

I will preface this by saying that in general I always thought of myself as an environmentalist. I bought a Prius back in 2002, for example and I am now getting over 50 MPG going back and forth to work. I was strongly against the excessive use of coal, but that was because of something called "acid" rain which was devistating the lakes and rivers of New York and New England. I will applaud any reasonable attempt at fossil fuel reduction as long as it doesn't cross the environmental line somewhere else. When we start talking about light bulbs which become a potential haz mat source in every home I draw the line. When we start talking about subjecting scores of generations to our nuclear waste problem I draw the line.

It's also rather arrogant to think there's a god who gives a shit what we're doing, but there are millions of people who think that. How much data do we need to satisfy you, oh meek one?

Well if you are going to convict CO2 for all our worries, I would like to convict him beyond a reasonable doubt as in any proper court of law. Unfortunately, it's worse than a reasonable doubt, the prosecution has only bought circumstantial evidence to the court room.

All Gore's infamous temperature / CO2 chart upon analysis shows that there is a several hundred year lag between the changes in temperature and the changes in CO2. This means that the cause and effect Al wanted to prove was in fact reversed and that global warming causes CO2 to leak out of the oceans and into the atmosphere.

More over, as I look through the various history books on subjects unrelated to global warming, I realize that we have been getting better all the time, not worse. While the population has been increasing, our use of combustion has been getting more and more efficient. Roll everything back to the 18th century and the colonists who were extracting iron ore from the Catskill Mountains were leveling whole sides of mountains to provide the wood fuel for the smelting and made the entire sky so black that you could not see the sun in the middle of the day. Roll back even further and you see the near deforrestation of Europe in the Middle Ages because of the great love for hot baths. (Bathing was only taboo in later centuries.)

Remember it was only a few decades ago that the great satan molecule was methane and how the so called "hard" science fiction program Seaquest DSV was predicting that all the cows would have to be slaughtered and cattle growing forever banned in order to prevent global warming. Now methane is hardly talked about, even though global warming technically has the potential to release tons of methane in frozen permasoil.

That said, there is "reasonable doubt" and that solar wind effects which could impact cosmic rays that are responsible for cloud formation could play a stronger influence on global temperatures than CO2. The data tracks far better.

By all means, let's reduce fossil fuel use. Let's have a solar panel on every house roof, (or perhaps some nice green grass) and windmills to capture the wind. Let's have smaller fuel efficient transportation systems. There are lots of reasons to do this that have nothing to do with global warming. Let us even be prapared for the possibility that global warming might be long term. (In the middle east they are wroking on the idea of whole floating islands; a unique solution for all locations that are prone to natural flooding or could have problems if ocean levels rise.)

And this is the inverted pascall's wager. If we blindly assume that global warming is caused by CO2 and not only it isn't but the cause is really long term then we just spent billions of dollars and man hours for nothing. ("The goggles! They do nothing!") While we could have spent that money preparing for not only this potential disaster but other disasters that occur all the time that have nothing to do with global warming or cooling.

CO2 causes global warming is merely a crack dictor's unproven "cure" for an ailment which may or may not be long term. Someone just wants to sell us snake oil and the majority are buying it hook, line and sinker.

[bedub1]

Geophysicist Phil Chapman, the first Australian to become an astronaut with NASA, said pictures from the US Solar and Heliospheric Observatory also show that there are currently no spots on the sun. He also noted that the world cooled quickly between January last year and January this year, by about 0.7C.

"This is the fastest temperature change in the instrumental record, and it puts us back to where we were in 1930," Dr Chapman noted in The Australian today.

By all means, let's reduce fossil fuel use. Let's have a solar panel on every house roof, (or perhaps some nice green grass) and windmills to capture the wind. Let's have smaller fuel efficient transportation systems. There are lots of reasons to do this that have nothing to do with global warming.

Absolutely. I hope solar panels come down in price. Millions of power generating units is far more efficient than a single one. FedEx in CA runs their entire building off the solar panels on the roof. There was a great discovery channel show about it.

[tzor]

I just came back from my 25th reunion at R.P.I. (I love that place every five years I'm guarenteed to come back with a *WOW* moment ... five years ago it was a discussion on the notion of multiple universes causing variations in the aceleration of the universe) This time I discovered that someone just came up with a pattent for the blackest black known to man, made of carbon nano tubes. The implication is that this could improve solar panel performance significantly. Remember one way to improve price is to improve performance so you need less to generate the same amount of power.

Wait, I need a linky Carbon nanotube carpet darkest thing ever made

[jonesthecurl]

Geophysicist Phil Chapman, the first Australian to become an astronaut with NASA, said pictures from the US Solar and Heliospheric Observatory also show that there are currently no spots on the sun. He also noted that the world cooled quickly between January last year and January this year, by about 0.7C.

"This is the fastest temperature change in the instrumental record, and it puts us back to where we were in 1930," Dr Chapman noted in The Australian today.

By all means, let's reduce fossil fuel use. Let's have a solar panel on every house roof, (or perhaps some nice green grass) and windmills to capture the wind. Let's have smaller fuel efficient transportation systems. There are lots of reasons to do this that have nothing to do with global warming.

Absolutely. I hope solar panels come down in price. Millions of power generating units is far more efficient than a single one. FedEx in CA runs their entire building off the solar panels on the roof. There was a great discovery channel show about it.

In the warmer parts of Europe, they use the heat of the sun to warm their water directly - a low-tech green idea which has been around since before "green" was anything but a colour. This doesn't work too well in the UK, but it would be ideal for quite a lot of the US - is it used much?

[muy_thaiguy]

Geophysicist Phil Chapman, the first Australian to become an astronaut with NASA, said pictures from the US Solar and Heliospheric Observatory also show that there are currently no spots on the sun. He also noted that the world cooled quickly between January last year and January this year, by about 0.7C.

"This is the fastest temperature change in the instrumental record, and it puts us back to where we were in 1930," Dr Chapman noted in The Australian today.

By all means, let's reduce fossil fuel use. Let's have a solar panel on every house roof, (or perhaps some nice green grass) and windmills to capture the wind. Let's have smaller fuel efficient transportation systems. There are lots of reasons to do this that have nothing to do with global warming.

Absolutely. I hope solar panels come down in price. Millions of power generating units is far more efficient than a single one. FedEx in CA runs their entire building off the solar panels on the roof. There was a great discovery channel show about it.

In the warmer parts of Europe, they use the heat of the sun to warm their water directly - a low-tech green idea which has been around since before "green" was anything but a colour. This doesn't work too well in the UK, but it would be ideal for quite a lot of the US - is it used much?

In the warmer parts of the country, maybe. But the area where I live, yes there are times were we can get a good amount of sun, but the only time that it would be even remotely practical is about 2-4 months out of the year. The rest of the time it is simply to cold to do anything like that.

BTW, I live in the Mountain West (Wyoming, Colorado, Dakotas, Montana, Idaho).

[jonesthecurl]

Geophysicist Phil Chapman, the first Australian to become an astronaut with NASA, said pictures from the US Solar and Heliospheric Observatory also show that there are currently no spots on the sun. He also noted that the world cooled quickly between January last year and January this year, by about 0.7C.

"This is the fastest temperature change in the instrumental record, and it puts us back to where we were in 1930," Dr Chapman noted in The Australian today.

By all means, let's reduce fossil fuel use. Let's have a solar panel on every house roof, (or perhaps some nice green grass) and windmills to capture the wind. Let's have smaller fuel efficient transportation systems. There are lots of reasons to do this that have nothing to do with global warming.

Absolutely. I hope solar panels come down in price. Millions of power generating units is far more efficient than a single one. FedEx in CA runs their entire building off the solar panels on the roof. There was a great discovery channel show about it.

In the warmer parts of Europe, they use the heat of the sun to warm their water directly - a low-tech green idea which has been around since before "green" was anything but a colour. This doesn't work too well in the UK, but it would be ideal for quite a lot of the US - is it used much?

In the warmer parts of the country, maybe. But the area where I live, yes there are times were we can get a good amount of sun, but the only time that it would be even remotely practical is about 2-4 months out of the year. The rest of the time it is simply to cold to do anything like that.

BTW, I live in the Mountain West (Wyoming, Colorado, Dakotas, Montana, Idaho).

Yeah, the US is a big place. here in NJ, you'd probably find this useful May-October. But in the south? We went to Florida in the winter recess, it was hot even then.

[tzor]

In the warmer parts of Europe, they use the heat of the sun to warm their water directly - a low-tech green idea which has been around since before "green" was anything but a colour. This doesn't work too well in the UK, but it would be ideal for quite a lot of the US - is it used much?

This was the "big thing" when the first oil embargo hit in the 70's. The technology to pump the water to the roof and back again, as well as storage of the heated water for later retrieval at night wasn't practical at the time and the units were generally bulky. It does reamin a viable option for heating outdoor swimming pools.

I knew one place that tried to use a water cooling system, basically there was a stream of water that went over the roof and cooling took place through evaporation, but this was the cafeteria at a national lab and they turned off the system shortly after testing it.

[Neoteny]

Holy crap!!! TZOR doesn't believe that global warming is man-made either? You are a much more eloquent speaker than me. A little help would surely be appreciated!

I will preface this by saying that in general I always thought of myself as an environmentalist. I bought a Prius back in 2002, for example and I am now getting over 50 MPG going back and forth to work. I was strongly against the excessive use of coal, but that was because of something called "acid" rain which was devistating the lakes and rivers of New York and New England. I will applaud any reasonable attempt at fossil fuel reduction as long as it doesn't cross the environmental line somewhere else. When we start talking about light bulbs which become a potential haz mat source in every home I draw the line. When we start talking about subjecting scores of generations to our nuclear waste problem I draw the line.

It's also rather arrogant to think there's a god who gives a shit what we're doing, but there are millions of people who think that. How much data do we need to satisfy you, oh meek one?

Well if you are going to convict CO2 for all our worries, I would like to convict him beyond a reasonable doubt as in any proper court of law. Unfortunately, it's worse than a reasonable doubt, the prosecution has only bought circumstantial evidence to the court room.

All Gore's infamous temperature / CO2 chart upon analysis shows that there is a several hundred year lag between the changes in temperature and the changes in CO2. This means that the cause and effect Al wanted to prove was in fact reversed and that global warming causes CO2 to leak out of the oceans and into the atmosphere.

More over, as I look through the various history books on subjects unrelated to global warming, I realize that we have been getting better all the time, not worse. While the population has been increasing, our use of combustion has been getting more and more efficient. Roll everything back to the 18th century and the colonists who were extracting iron ore from the Catskill Mountains were leveling whole sides of mountains to provide the wood fuel for the smelting and made the entire sky so black that you could not see the sun in the middle of the day. Roll back even further and you see the near deforrestation of Europe in the Middle Ages because of the great love for hot baths. (Bathing was only taboo in later centuries.)

Remember it was only a few decades ago that the great satan molecule was methane and how the so called "hard" science fiction program Seaquest DSV was predicting that all the cows would have to be slaughtered and cattle growing forever banned in order to prevent global warming. Now methane is hardly talked about, even though global warming technically has the potential to release tons of methane in frozen permasoil.

That said, there is "reasonable doubt" and that solar wind effects which could impact cosmic rays that are responsible for cloud formation could play a stronger influence on global temperatures than CO2. The data tracks far better.

By all means, let's reduce fossil fuel use. Let's have a solar panel on every house roof, (or perhaps some nice green grass) and windmills to capture the wind. Let's have smaller fuel efficient transportation systems. There are lots of reasons to do this that have nothing to do with global warming. Let us even be prapared for the possibility that global warming might be long term. (In the middle east they are wroking on the idea of whole floating islands; a unique solution for all locations that are prone to natural flooding or could have problems if ocean levels rise.)

And this is the inverted pascall's wager. If we blindly assume that global warming is caused by CO2 and not only it isn't but the cause is really long term then we just spent billions of dollars and man hours for nothing. ("The goggles! They do nothing!") While we could have spent that money preparing for not only this potential disaster but other disasters that occur all the time that have nothing to do with global warming or cooling.

CO2 causes global warming is merely a crack dictor's unproven "cure" for an ailment which may or may not be long term. Someone just wants to sell us snake oil and the majority are buying it hook, line and sinker.

What graph is it that Gore uses in his movie? I'm sure it's not his own, and I don't see why everyone gets so worked up over Al Gore when it comes to global warming. It's not like he's doing the research.

[Juan_Bottom]

What graph is it that Gore uses in his movie? I'm sure it's not his own, and I don't see why everyone gets so worked up over Al Gore when it comes to global warming. It's not like he's doing the research.

Two things about Al Gore that upset me.

A) He is personally invested in global warming. When you "go green" he makes a profit. And I never trust those who stand to make a profit.

B) He refuses to debate the topic. He will not have any discussion at all. He must know the info he talks about is skewed.