universal healthcare

[Napoleon Ier]

Aye. At the very least, provide people with money to get healthcare but allow the private system of competition to do it's magic.

[TaylorSandbek]

I don't think that you guys have listened to a word that these wonderful europeans have said.

Your a noob who has posted fifteen times and doesnt even have a rank because you havent played any games. Since I laid out my argument already, Im allowed to use illogical calling of names.
you socialist

[PLAYER57832]

Agreed, but at the same time we need to encourage self reliance. The reason things have gotten so bad for so many people is the rampant consumerism that's taken over our country. People live in debt in order to live beyond their means because spending is driven into our heads from day one. The American Dream does still exist in a way, but it's all fugly and mutated. It's all about "I want". There are, of course, people who genuinely can't be faulted, but I'm against bailing out people who lived irresponsible life styles when there are more deserving people to lend a hand.

Also true. I still remember that Oprah-episode or something about a family with 3 kids where the parents worked double jobs because every kid needed a car and the best of the best products. The family was high in debts and the parents really didn't understand they didn't need to give all that shit.

On the one hand, I see that they lived like idiots and it's their fault, but on the other hand it's obvious that it's a problem partly blamed on american society which tells people to do stuff like that. The idea is bad and people, always following the herd, are buying into it because they think it's supposed to be that way. The retardedness and irresponsibility people show is a consequence of the stupid message the government sends. I see it is slowly spreading to Europe and other countries, and I want to tell people they're being stupid but it won't work.

Man, I get depressed of this shit.

Yes, I get QUITE frustrated when I see Oprah and Sue Orman putting folks with 100,000 incomes on a money "diet" ... honey, we been livin on far FAR less for a GOOD long time.

My kids, nor I or my husband, wear "designer" anything .. unless it comes from a garage sale. We grow vegetables, but only when it rains. If I have to pay for water, its cheaper to buy the veggies. I DON'T use coupons because I generally don't buy the brands they reduce. I DO buy everything and anything on sale.

BUT, we get roughly 2-3 credit card offers in the mail a month. We used to (up until the mortgage crisis hit 2 months ago), get phone calls almost everyday from "nice" folks offering to refinance our home... and some cash besides.

I am pretty darned good at weeding through the "fine print", but it takes more than a PhD or MBA to understand, REALLY understand what most of these offers TRULY entail. AND, that is no joke. NPR recently did just that. Took a bunch of credit card agreements and offers (both) and asked MBAs from some pretty good schools (who I won't name to spare them embarrassment) and asked the read to graduate MBA'a or graduated MBAs to read them. Only ONE of them really "got" the agreement in full. OHLY ONE MBA candidate!!!


ALSO, this is where the medical care issue really comes into play.

I have already mentioned us owing mega-bucks for our son. We got our bill around Christmas time. I had gotten some cash and so called and said I would pay 1/2 of the bill and the rest later. ... to make a long story short, we were ILLEGALLY threatened with collections. My sons were sick ... again. I was exhausted from dealing with kids, a nursing new born (talk about your energy-draining siphon). So, faced with what was then "only" $300 (for one hospital... we still owed over $1200 to the other), I placed this on my credit card. We also had to put food, lodging and gas for our trip down, another roughly $300 by the time it was done.


Oh, did I mention that we put gifts on credit because we ordered them on-line... and that some of that "extra" cash was Christmas Club money that was to have paid off the gifts put on the cards?

The result is that my husband's income has now been reduced even further... by roughly $100.00 a month, IF we pay just the "minimum".

Here is the thing. Our story really was not all that bad. We survived. BUT I have around me, in our community, many who are not doing anywhere near as well.

Add in a divorce (a can of worms itself) or other situation ... and a VERY large number of americans are in deep, deep trouble.

[TaylorSandbek]

Agreed, but at the same time we need to encourage self reliance. The reason things have gotten so bad for so many people is the rampant consumerism that's taken over our country. People live in debt in order to live beyond their means because spending is driven into our heads from day one. The American Dream does still exist in a way, but it's all fugly and mutated. It's all about "I want". There are, of course, people who genuinely can't be faulted, but I'm against bailing out people who lived irresponsible life styles when there are more deserving people to lend a hand.

Also true. I still remember that Oprah-episode or something about a family with 3 kids where the parents worked double jobs because every kid needed a car and the best of the best products. The family was high in debts and the parents really didn't understand they didn't need to give all that shit.

On the one hand, I see that they lived like idiots and it's their fault, but on the other hand it's obvious that it's a problem partly blamed on american society which tells people to do stuff like that. The idea is bad and people, always following the herd, are buying into it because they think it's supposed to be that way. The retardedness and irresponsibility people show is a consequence of the stupid message the government sends. I see it is slowly spreading to Europe and other countries, and I want to tell people they're being stupid but it won't work.

Man, I get depressed of this shit.

Yes, I get QUITE frustrated when I see Oprah and Sue Orman putting folks with 100,000 incomes on a money "diet" ... honey, we been livin on far FAR less for a GOOD long time.

My kids, nor I or my husband, wear "designer" anything .. unless it comes from a garage sale. We grow vegetables, but only when it rains. If I have to pay for water, its cheaper to buy the veggies. I DON'T use coupons because I generally don't buy the brands they reduce. I DO buy everything and anything on sale.

BUT, we get roughly 2-3 credit card offers in the mail a month. We used to (up until the mortgage crisis hit 2 months ago), get phone calls almost everyday from "nice" folks offering to refinance our home... and some cash besides.

I am pretty darned good at weeding through the "fine print", but it takes more than a PhD or MBA to understand, REALLY understand what most of these offers TRULY entail. AND, that is no joke. NPR recently did just that. Took a bunch of credit card agreements and offers (both) and asked MBAs from some pretty good schools (who I won't name to spare them embarrassment) and asked the read to graduate MBA'a or graduated MBAs to read them. Only ONE of them really "got" the agreement in full. OHLY ONE MBA candidate!!!


ALSO, this is where the medical care issue really comes into play.

I have already mentioned us owing mega-bucks for our son. We got our bill around Christmas time. I had gotten some cash and so called and said I would pay 1/2 of the bill and the rest later. ... to make a long story short, we were ILLEGALLY threatened with collections. My sons were sick ... again. I was exhausted from dealing with kids, a nursing new born (talk about your energy-draining siphon). So, faced with what was then "only" $300 (for one hospital... we still owed over $1200 to the other), I placed this on my credit card. We also had to put food, lodging and gas for our trip down, another roughly $300 by the time it was done.


Oh, did I mention that we put gifts on credit because we ordered them on-line... and that some of that "extra" cash was Christmas Club money that was to have paid off the gifts put on the cards?

The result is that my husband's income has now been reduced even further... by roughly $100.00 a month, IF we pay just the "minimum".

Here is the thing. Our story really was not all that bad. We survived. BUT I have around me, in our community, many who are not doing anywhere near as well.

Add in a divorce (a can of worms itself) or other situation ... and a VERY large number of americans are in deep, deep trouble.

This is an illogical argument, it is focusing on singled out cases, and tugs on emotional heartstrings, rather then addressing the real issues that Social Medicine creates.
There will always be pros and cons of anything, but the cons of socialized medicine will be far outweighed by the cons we face today.

Stop making emotional arguments, and start thinking clearly. Obviously, you are letting your experience cloud your ability to make any reasonable argument whatsoever.

Im not trying to pick on you, but nothing you have added to this discussion has been beneficial at all; the only thing you have done is relate to us all your unfortunate story. Good. Start a thread of your own if this is what you wish to do.

[Zaqq]

She is using a single case to back up a broader argument, you twit. It seems more that your inexperience with english clouds your own arguements enough as it is so shut your trapper, she's dealing with a lot. If you've never heard of someone that's had trouble paying bills for medical this and that, you need to visit a hospital or nursing home sometime.

This wouldn't mean I agree with the idea of passing the burden of healthcare to the taxpayer, but some reform in the insurance industry would be beneficial. And there need to be a few more checks and balances for our hospitals' collection systems as I have heard similar stories to yours in my own life when it comes to thuggish bill collectors.

[TaylorSandbek]

She is using a single case to back up a broader argument, you twit.

Shes not making a broader argument, she is simply telling us her story

It seems more that your inexperience with english clouds your own arguements enough as it is

When has my grasp of the English language been poor?

so shut your trapper, she's dealing with a lot. If you've never heard of someone that's had trouble paying bills for medical this and that, you need to visit a hospital or nursing home sometime.

You sound as if your an emotional buffoon who has never been to economics class, much less a logic class, and is using his sorrow to justify what is unconstitutional

This wouldn't mean I agree with the idea of passing the burden of healthcare to the taxpayer, but some reform in the insurance industry would be beneficial. And there need to be a few more checks and balances for our hospitals' collection systems as I have heard similar stories to yours in my own life when it comes to thuggish bill collectors.

Last time I checked, we are a capitalist country. That means government intervention is a no-no. Besides, anyone with half a brain and half a grasp on economic theory will tell you that any sort of government intervention is bad for the overall health of the economy.

[jay_a2j]

Jay - take your insanity elsewhere please. Go back to the tinfoil hat thread.
1) gas prices are not more important than healthcare. This might be the most retarded thing you have ever.... actually, maybe not.

Really? And how do you suppose you are going to make your Dr. appointment if you can afford the gas to get there?

[TaylorSandbek]

Jay - take your insanity elsewhere please. Go back to the tinfoil hat thread.
1) gas prices are not more important than healthcare. This might be the most retarded thing you have ever.... actually, maybe not.

Really? And how do you suppose you are going to make your Dr. appointment if you can afford the gas to get there?

Jay, there is always Mass Transit.

Seriously though, that is a pretty stupid comment.

Gas prices are high because of one people group - environmentalists.

[muy_thaiguy]

Jay - take your insanity elsewhere please. Go back to the tinfoil hat thread.
1) gas prices are not more important than healthcare. This might be the most retarded thing you have ever.... actually, maybe not.

Really? And how do you suppose you are going to make your Dr. appointment if you can afford the gas to get there?

Jay, there is always Mass Transit.

Seriously though, that is a pretty stupid comment.

Gas prices are high because of one people group - environmentalists.

Actually, other then one system of buses which is mainly for the elderly, Wyoming has no mass transit, no taxis, and there aren't any cities big enough for subways.

[TaylorSandbek]

Jay - take your insanity elsewhere please. Go back to the tinfoil hat thread.
1) gas prices are not more important than healthcare. This might be the most retarded thing you have ever.... actually, maybe not.

Really? And how do you suppose you are going to make your Dr. appointment if you can afford the gas to get there?

Jay, there is always Mass Transit.

Seriously though, that is a pretty stupid comment.

Gas prices are high because of one people group - environmentalists.

Actually, other then one system of buses which is mainly for the elderly, Wyoming has no mass transit, no taxis, and there aren't any cities big enough for subways.

Well then buy a bicycle and put a smile on the dopey face of an environmentalist.

The gas is too expensive for him to drive to the doctors? How dumb is this guy? Unless the doctors is, idk, five hundred miles away, Im sure fifteen dollars of gas will be more than enough for a short doctor trip. 5 gals at 15mpg = 75 miles. Last time I checked, most people live this close to doctor's offices. And besides, most cars get better then 15 mpg anyway.

[muy_thaiguy]

Well then buy a bicycle and put a smile on the dopey face of an environmentalist.

I have a bicycle, but one of the pedals broke on it, and I have been having knee problems the last few years. Not to mention it's kind of stupid to ride a bike during the Mid Western Winters. Can get 3-4 feet of snow, -40 degree temperature, and spring-summer is only about 4 months in total. However, it has been known to snow profusely during the late winter and early spring.

[jay_a2j]

Jay - take your insanity elsewhere please. Go back to the tinfoil hat thread.
1) gas prices are not more important than healthcare. This might be the most retarded thing you have ever.... actually, maybe not.

Really? And how do you suppose you are going to make your Dr. appointment if you can afford the gas to get there?

Jay, there is always Mass Transit.

Seriously though, that is a pretty stupid comment.

Gas prices are high because of one people group - environmentalists.

Actually, other then one system of buses which is mainly for the elderly, Wyoming has no mass transit, no taxis, and there aren't any cities big enough for subways.

Well then buy a bicycle and put a smile on the dopey face of an environmentalist.

The gas is too expensive for him to drive to the doctors? How dumb is this guy? Unless the doctors is, idk, five hundred miles away, Im sure fifteen dollars of gas will be more than enough for a short doctor trip. 5 gals at 15mpg = 75 miles. Last time I checked, most people live this close to doctor's offices. And besides, most cars get better then 15 mpg anyway.

You're forgetting the co-pay!

[TaylorSandbek]

Jay - take your insanity elsewhere please. Go back to the tinfoil hat thread.
1) gas prices are not more important than healthcare. This might be the most retarded thing you have ever.... actually, maybe not.

Really? And how do you suppose you are going to make your Dr. appointment if you can afford the gas to get there?

Jay, there is always Mass Transit.

Seriously though, that is a pretty stupid comment.

Gas prices are high because of one people group - environmentalists.

Actually, other then one system of buses which is mainly for the elderly, Wyoming has no mass transit, no taxis, and there aren't any cities big enough for subways.

Well then buy a bicycle and put a smile on the dopey face of an environmentalist.

The gas is too expensive for him to drive to the doctors? How dumb is this guy? Unless the doctors is, idk, five hundred miles away, Im sure fifteen dollars of gas will be more than enough for a short doctor trip. 5 gals at 15mpg = 75 miles. Last time I checked, most people live this close to doctor's offices. And besides, most cars get better then 15 mpg anyway.

You're forgetting the co-pay!

Your forgetting that this argument is totally irrelevant in the first place to universal health care!

[jay_a2j]

5 gal. of gas = $20 + a $20 co-pay = $40 just to go to the doctors! And God forbid he should give you a prescription...that's another $5 co-pay plus gas to get it filled!

[TaylorSandbek]

5 gal. of gas = $20 + a $20 co-pay = $40 just to go to the doctors! And God forbid he should give you a prescription...that's another $5 co-pay plus gas to get it filled!

But is this addressing the topic of Socialized Medicine? Or are you just whining about gas prices?

Its the latter, so start a new thread, and don't get off topic

[jay_a2j]

5 gal. of gas = $20 + a $20 co-pay = $40 just to go to the doctors! And God forbid he should give you a prescription...that's another $5 co-pay plus gas to get it filled!

But is this addressing the topic of Socialized Medicine? Or are you just whining about gas prices?

Its the latter, so start a new thread, and don't get off topic

When you become a mod you can tell people what to do. Until then drink your kool-aid and be quiet.


For the record, It was not I who took it off topic. I think that was HC.

[TaylorSandbek]

You kept it off topic.

Back to socialized medicine. Anyone who has a "good" argument for it, Id like to hear it.

[spurgistan]

You kept it off topic.

Back to socialized medicine. Anyone who has a "good" argument for it, Id like to hear it.

Here's a good argument: the US doesn't do it! Oh snap, did he go there?
Oh, he did.
Dayum.

But seriously - the government spends massively to protect us from the slightest threat of some terrorist doing something awful to us. Why doesn't it spend some of that to help protect us from our own bodies?

[TaylorSandbek]

You kept it off topic.

Back to socialized medicine. Anyone who has a "good" argument for it, Id like to hear it.

Here's a good argument: the US doesn't do it! Oh snap, did he go there?
Oh, he did.
Dayum.

But seriously - the government spends massively to protect us from the slightest threat of some terrorist doing something awful to us. Why doesn't it spend some of that to help protect us from our own bodies?

W.T.H

Read the above post I made about Socialized medicine.. a while back. You moron, what you just said was not an argument, but filth spewed from the mouth of a Liberal. It is not a matter of protecting ourselves from out bodies, it is a matter of the Government's Constitutional right to tax the population as a whole, and give freely to anyone who gets hurt.

[jay_a2j]

You kept it off topic.

Back to socialized medicine. Anyone who has a "good" argument for it, Id like to hear it.

Here's a good argument: the US doesn't do it! Oh snap, did he go there?
Oh, he did.
Dayum.

But seriously - the government spends massively to protect us from the slightest threat of some terrorist doing something awful to us. Why doesn't it spend some of that to help protect us from our own bodies?

W.T.H

Read the above post I made about Socialized medicine.. a while back. You moron, what you just said was not an argument, but filth spewed from the mouth of a Liberal. It is not a matter of protecting ourselves from out bodies, it is a matter of the Government's Constitutional right to tax the population as a whole, and give freely to anyone who gets hurt.

The government doesn't have a "Constitutional right" to tax us. The Federal income tax was AMMEDED to the Constitution in 1913.

[TaylorSandbek]

You kept it off topic.

Back to socialized medicine. Anyone who has a "good" argument for it, Id like to hear it.

Here's a good argument: the US doesn't do it! Oh snap, did he go there?
Oh, he did.
Dayum.

But seriously - the government spends massively to protect us from the slightest threat of some terrorist doing something awful to us. Why doesn't it spend some of that to help protect us from our own bodies?

W.T.H

Read the above post I made about Socialized medicine.. a while back. You moron, what you just said was not an argument, but filth spewed from the mouth of a Liberal. It is not a matter of protecting ourselves from out bodies, it is a matter of the Government's Constitutional right to tax the population as a whole, and give freely to anyone who gets hurt.

The government doesn't have a "Constitutional right" to tax us. The Federal income tax was AMMEDED to the Constitution in 1913.

Hey dim-wit, ever read the Constitution?

Section 8 - Powers of Congress

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

Yeah, this is a section, not an amendment

[jay_a2j]

Hey DIM-WIT , INCOME TAX. AMMENDED in 1913. Look it up.

[Neutrino]

but filth spewed from the mouth of a Liberal.

May I be the first to say "You Lose"?
It may not be quite as bad as a Goodwin's Law violation, but using the name of a political ideology that they may or may not subscribe too as an insult is certainly lose-worthy.
How long will it take for the majority of people to realise that any ideology is roughly as valid as any other ideology, and that insulting people with them is the height of stupidity?

That is all (At least, until I spot something else egregiously wrong...).

[Juan_Bottom]

Isn't TAYLORSANDBEK the same 14 year old idiot who said that mutations within a single species do not count as evolution?

Your argument is we shouldn't have "universal healthcare" because it would be socialist? Do you know that Congress, the Senate, and all high up government officials get free healthcare? So do all inmates, prisoners, and 'enemy combatants.' What about illegal aliens, they get free healthcare? WTF?

It's NOT socialism, because the government isn't controlling any goods, or services, only paying for them. Neither would they be competing in a free market. Universal healthcare is no more socialism than universal road care.

It's not wealth redistribution either, because we have yet to hear of any healthcare plans. How do we know that the rich will pay more? And who's to say that they wouldn't pay more for private care anyway?

And this isn't a free market either. The cheapest insurance companies all have a monopoly. And these are all corporations. And it is law that corporations make as much money for their investors as they can.

I dealt with this same BS everyday as an Escrow officer.

[Juan_Bottom]

but filth spewed from the mouth of a Liberal.

May I be the first to say "You Lose"?
It may not be quite as bad as a Goodwin's Law violation, but using the name of a political ideology that they may or may not subscribe too as an insult is certainly lose-worthy.
How long will it take for the majority of people to realise that any ideology is roughly as valid as any other ideology, and that insulting people with them is the height of stupidity?

That is all (At least, until I spot something else egregiously wrong...).

I mostly agree with this. It shouldn't be us vs them, we are all Americans. I don't understand how people fall for the 'you belong to a special group that is the smartest and bestest ever!' crap. We are a melting pot, not a right-left pot.