Hell. Is it a real place?

[jay_a2j]

I completely understand where you are coming from. I don't doubt that the stories in the bible are intended to get people to live good lives and do good things, but they were written by men. The PEOPLE in those Churches help many people, yes...so do thousands of other non-denominational charities, but it is PEOPLE just like you & me doing the "good"...not a god.

I believe in people.

Spoken like a true atheist. Dude reading your posts sends shivers down my spine. "Believe in people" and stuff like that is so humanistic its scary. You have put humanity in the place of God. Man didn't create this world, man had nothing to do with the creation of life. Man is not "good". Good implies the absence of evil, a "good" man would be one who has never done evil... apart from God this man doesn't exist.

Its a shame to see someone so against God, and don't give me the "I can't be against something that doesn't exist" line because its bunk. The sad truth is, you have probably never even asked Him if He is real? Never took the time to "SEEK" in order to be able to "FIND".

[Bozo]

If religion is based on faith, then how can we find something that apparently proves that there is a hell, and therefore a Heaven and therefore god. Being a christion i would have to say that this is a load and that the commies are up to there shinanigans again...

[Backglass]

"Believe in people" and stuff like that is so humanistic its scary. You have put humanity in the place of God.

It's scares you to believe in people? Not me. PEOPLE do the good things in this world.

Man didn't create this world, man had nothing to do with the creation of life.

OK...I can agree with that, of course.

Man is not "good".

I disagree. There a plenty of good men in the world.

Good implies the absence of evil, a "good" man would be one who has never done evil... apart from God this man doesn't exist.

People do good and bad things. They are not being controlled by puppeteers from above/below the earth.

Its a shame to see someone so against God, and don't give me the "I can't be against something that doesn't exist" line because its bunk.

I will say it again since you dont seem to be able to comprehend my posts. I am not against any god(s). I just dont think they exist. Thats all! Why is that so hard for you to understand? Why are you against the Loch Ness Monster? Why are you against Bigfoot? Your not...you just don't believe they are real (I hope).

The sad truth is, you have probably never even asked Him if He is real? Never took the time to "SEEK" in order to be able to "FIND".

Have you taken the time to ASK Santa Claus if he exists? Sat down and PRAYED to Santa for toys? Maybe he never comes down your chimney because you havent truly taken him into your heart.

[Mirak]

The sad truth is, you have probably never even asked Him if He is real? Never took the time to "SEEK" in order to be able to "FIND".

Jay would you please ask him for me and if you get a response please let me know...

[vtmarik]

Good implies the absence of evil, a "good" man would be one who has never done evil... apart from God this man doesn't exist.

Jesus was a good man, and he never directly claimed to be the Son of God. He said that he was the Son of Man at best. It was all of his followers that tacked on the whole, pesky Messiah thing.

You claim that he's the Messiah, yet the Jews claim that he is not the messiah. Who are you going to believe, a bunch of people who got pissy and broke off from the parent religion or the parent religion itself that has more experience and knows a messiah when it sees one?

[happysadfun]

Good implies the absence of evil, a "good" man would be one who has never done evil... apart from God this man doesn't exist.

Jesus was a good man, and he never directly claimed to be the Son of God. He said that he was the Son of Man at best. It was all of his followers that tacked on the whole, pesky Messiah thing.

You claim that he's the Messiah, yet the Jews claim that he is not the messiah. Who are you going to believe, a bunch of people who got pissy and broke off from the parent religion or the parent religion itself that has more experience and knows a messiah when it sees one?

You are an idiot. Jesus said that he was Messiah many times.


And sonething tells me this is the next Logic Dictates That There Is A God. But 50 pages tops.

[cattrain]

The sad truth is, you have probably never even asked Him if He is real? Never took the time to "SEEK" in order to be able to "FIND".

Jay would you please ask him for me and if you get a response please let me know...

I have goten a response before... I know plenty of other people who have... Just pray and ask him to reveal himself, and he will...

[vtmarik]

You are an idiot. Jesus said that he was Messiah many times.

Alright, let's assume for a moment that I haven't memorized every detail of the Bible. Let's also assume that I'm busy and cannot find these passages on my own.

Then let's assume that you are charitable and will post these passages for me.

[Jolly Roger]

Good implies the absence of evil, a "good" man would be one who has never done evil... apart from God this man doesn't exist.

If a good man has never done evil, what about a great man or a fantasitc man? Would they have to do negative evil?

Of the two, evil seems to be the most absolute term. Evil always carries with it a more firm connotation while good can be applied in degrees. As noted in your link, darkness is an absolute to which light can be applied in degrees and cold is an absolute to which heat can be applied in degrees. So, I think you might have it backwards when you say that good implies the absence of evil - it should be that evil implies the absence of good.

[spring1]

The sad truth is, you have probably never even asked Him if He is real? Never took the time to "SEEK" in order to be able to "FIND".

Jay would you please ask him for me and if you get a response please let me know...

I have goten a response before... I know plenty of other people who have... Just pray and ask him to reveal himself, and he will...

I just tried this...I asked God to reveal himself to me...I begged, I pleaded, I even clicked the heels of my fancy shoes three times...you know what happened?

My dog looked and me and farted.

I ask for divine guidance and companionship and I get gas. Lovely.

[cattrain]

The sad truth is, you have probably never even asked Him if He is real? Never took the time to "SEEK" in order to be able to "FIND".

Jay would you please ask him for me and if you get a response please let me know...

I have goten a response before... I know plenty of other people who have... Just pray and ask him to reveal himself, and he will...

I just tried this...I asked God to reveal himself to me...I begged, I pleaded, I even clicked the heels of my fancy shoes three times...you know what happened?

My dog looked and me and farted.

I ask for divine guidance and companionship and I get gas. Lovely.

its not that simple... you haveto sicearly mean what you ask for, and you have to wait, God works in his own time, time is irelivant to Him...

[spring1]

Yo, schizo-boy...not to knock you off your high, but...

If when trying to elicit a physical response from God, you actually believe you've received one, then you need help. Professional help. Lots of it. Voices in your head are not a good thing. Really.

[Backglass]

Yo, schizo-boy...not to knock you off your high, but...

If when trying to elicit a physical response from God, you actually believe you've received one, then you need help. Professional help. Lots of it. Voices in your head are not a good thing. Really.

It works something like this.

He prays to meet a nice girl. He prays a LOT. He waits. He prays some more. "Please...a nice girl to go to the prom with". More praying. Then a girl in class says "Hey...wanna go to the prom?".

OR.......

Family member is very sick. Doctors say it doesnt look good. He prays. He prays a LOT. "Please don't let them die. I will be good forever if you spare them". He prays some more. Patient gets better and kicks the infection.

Prayers answered. There is a god.

[jay_a2j]

Good implies the absence of evil, a "good" man would be one who has never done evil... apart from God this man doesn't exist.

Jesus was a good man, and he never directly claimed to be the Son of God. He said that he was the Son of Man at best. It was all of his followers that tacked on the whole, pesky Messiah thing.

You claim that he's the Messiah, yet the Jews claim that he is not the messiah. Who are you going to believe, a bunch of people who got pissy and broke off from the parent religion or the parent religion itself that has more experience and knows a messiah when it sees one?

Do you recall Jesus asking Peter, "Who do YOU say that I am?" and what was his responce? Hmmm The same respnce the thief on the cross next to Jesus had. "Truely you are the Son of God!"

Jesus most definately claimed to be not only the Son of God but also God. "I and the Father are one"

Yes, the Jews rejected Jesus as the messiah. As was fortold years before His birth..... "He will be rejected by His own people"

[jay_a2j]

Yo, schizo-boy...not to knock you off your high, but...

If when trying to elicit a physical response from God, you actually believe you've received one, then you need help. Professional help. Lots of it. Voices in your head are not a good thing. Really.

It works something like this.

He prays to meet a nice girl. He prays a LOT. He waits. He prays some more. "Please...a nice girl to go to the prom with". More praying. Then a girl in class says "Hey...wanna go to the prom?".

OR.......

Family member is very sick. Doctors say it doesnt look good. He prays. He prays a LOT. "Please don't let them die. I will be good forever if you spare them". He prays some more. Patient gets better and kicks the infection.

Prayers answered. There is a god.

Or how about this one?


A Young man is diagnosed with MS (a disease that has no cure) Many people pray for this young man. One day this young man was watching TV when a person starts to pray and says, "God is healing someone with MS right now." And at that very moment the young man feels a warm "liquid-like" substance pour over his body from his head down to his feet. And since that day has been MS free (tha'd be about 16 years).

This young man had MS, a disease that has NO KNOWN cure. And now dose not have MS.... now how do YOU explain that?


And who is this young man?

The author of this post.

[stinkycheese]

Or how about this one?


A Young man is diagnosed with MS (a disease that has no cure) Many people pray for this young man. One day this young man was watching TV when a person starts to pray and says, "God is healing someone with MS right now." And at that very moment the young man feels a warm "liquid-like" substance pour over his body from his head down to his feet. And since that day has been MS free (tha'd be about 16 years).

This young man had MS, a disease that has NO KNOWN cure. And now dose not have MS.... now how do YOU explain that?


And who is this young man?

The author of this post.

Yay more logical fallacies...

You are confusing correlation and causation. Bascially you are saying this:

a) i prayed to god (or someone else prayed or said something about curing you)
b) i no longer have multiple sclerosis
c) i was cured because i prayed

Just because a and b happened together does not mean they are in anyway related.

One of my professors likes to state an excellent example for this fallacy whenever somebody uses this fallacy. It goes like this:
a) ice cream sales go up in the summer
b) rape increases in the summer
c) ice cream causes rape

Even though a and b are true, they are in no way related to each other. There isn't evidence to prove that there are any chemicals found within ice cream that make people rape other people.

[jay_a2j]

Or how about this one?


A Young man is diagnosed with MS (a disease that has no cure) Many people pray for this young man. One day this young man was watching TV when a person starts to pray and says, "God is healing someone with MS right now." And at that very moment the young man feels a warm "liquid-like" substance pour over his body from his head down to his feet. And since that day has been MS free (tha'd be about 16 years).

This young man had MS, a disease that has NO KNOWN cure. And now dose not have MS.... now how do YOU explain that?


And who is this young man?

The author of this post.

Yay more logical fallacies...

You are confusing correlation and causation. Bascially you are saying this:

a) i prayed to god (or someone else prayed or said something about curing you)
b) i no longer have multiple sclerosis
c) i was cured because i prayed

Just because a and b happened together does not mean they are in anyway related.

One of my professors likes to state an excellent example for this fallacy whenever somebody uses this fallacy. It goes like this:
a) ice cream sales go up in the summer
b) rape increases in the summer
c) ice cream causes rape

Even though a and b are true, they are in no way related to each other. There isn't evidence to prove that there are any chemicals found within ice cream that make people rape other people.

Just a few things you left out:

I FELT the healing at the VERY moment it was said to take place.... what you atheists no doubt call a coincidence.

Secondly how would your professor explain the FACT that the MS is gone?


Your icecream reference in no way compares to what happened. I had MS for 8 months before I was healed, those praying did not start praying the day I was healed. It took place in Gods time. If I had been healed of the common cold I could see where your professors twisted view could seam legitemate but MS doesn't have a cure. TRY AGAIN.







Oh and another point....Icecream sales go up in the summer because people eat icecream more in the summer.

It is a stupid point you tried to make.

You could also say:

a) I had a headach after sitting through my professors class

b) It went away after class

therefore

c) My professors class caused my headach.

[vtmarik]

Or how about this one?


A Young man is diagnosed with MS (a disease that has no cure) Many people pray for this young man. One day this young man was watching TV when a person starts to pray and says, "God is healing someone with MS right now." And at that very moment the young man feels a warm "liquid-like" substance pour over his body from his head down to his feet. And since that day has been MS free (tha'd be about 16 years).

This young man had MS, a disease that has NO KNOWN cure. And now dose not have MS.... now how do YOU explain that?


And who is this young man?

The author of this post.

While it is possible for this to have been some kind of supernatural occurence, performed either by God or some other spiritual entity, it is also quite possible to explain this another way.

You were spared because you found your path. The universe had a use for you and so the disease went away. I've met someone who had the exact experience you had, except it wasn't God that did it (considering that she never prayed for it nor is a Christian). She'd taken the news of her terminal illness and rededicated herself to her art and her own personal growth rather than to become some depressed nobody in a corporation. Once she did this, her cancer was gone. Not went into remission, completely gone. As if it was never there.

Perhaps Jay, it wasn't God. Perhaps it was something else.

[jay_a2j]

Or how about this one?


A Young man is diagnosed with MS (a disease that has no cure) Many people pray for this young man. One day this young man was watching TV when a person starts to pray and says, "God is healing someone with MS right now." And at that very moment the young man feels a warm "liquid-like" substance pour over his body from his head down to his feet. And since that day has been MS free (tha'd be about 16 years).

This young man had MS, a disease that has NO KNOWN cure. And now dose not have MS.... now how do YOU explain that?


And who is this young man?

The author of this post.

While it is possible for this to have been some kind of supernatural occurence, performed either by God or some other spiritual entity, it is also quite possible to explain this another way.

You were spared because you found your path. The universe had a use for you and so the disease went away. I've met someone who had the exact experience you had, except it wasn't God that did it (considering that she never prayed for it nor is a Christian). She'd taken the news of her terminal illness and rededicated herself to her art and her own personal growth rather than to become some depressed nobody in a corporation. Once she did this, her cancer was gone. Not went into remission, completely gone. As if it was never there.

Perhaps Jay, it wasn't God. Perhaps it was something else.

Just because she didn't pray doesn't mean others didn't. As a matter of fact I don't recall praying for myself to be healed. It was God in my case, this I am sure of. Call it a miracle of the Universe if you wish. I will give credit where credit is due.

[stinkycheese]

Just a few things you left out:

I FELT the healing at the VERY moment it was said to take place.... what you atheists no doubt call a coincidence.

Bam...another logical fallacy. One cannot rely on memory as a source of evidence. Memories can become distorted, deleted, added, or in some cases can be completely fabricated.

Assuming for a second that your memory serves you correctly. There are endless possibilities to what it was that you felt, and claiming that god healing you is the only possibility is madness. It's called observational selection...you have to take into account all possibilities.

Secondly how would your professor explain the FACT that the MS is gone?


Your icecream reference in no way compares to what happened. I had MS for 8 months before I was healed, those praying did not start praying the day I was healed. It took place in Gods time. If I had been healed of the common cold I could see where your professors twisted view could seam legitemate but MS doesn't have a cure. TRY AGAIN.

First off I don't understand why you're attacking my professor. He didn't make this stuff up. It's called confusion of correlation and causation and you're doing exactly that; making up your mind that because one thing happened, another thing that happened before it was the cause of it.

Also, time is not relative. The rough idea of my interpretation could easily be changed to:

a) people prayed for 8 months
b) you were healed
c) therefore god healed you...

It still holds true that just because two events happen, one is not the cause of the other. You must provide tangible evidence that proves that the events can be linked together. The fact that there is no cure for MS is not tangible evidence supporting god's intervention. You are using observational selection once again when you state that god is the only answer to the cure for MS. God isn't the only possibility.

Oh and another point....Icecream sales go up in the summer because people eat icecream more in the summer.

It is a stupid point you tried to make.

You could also say:

a) I had a headach after sitting through my professors class

b) It went away after class

therefore

c) My professors class caused my headach.

Are you trying to help me prove my point? This is exactly what I was saying. C must be proven by something else, there is no evidence to show that a and b caused c.

[Backglass]

People of all (and no) religion who are terminally ill, spontaneously get better. This happenes in hospitals on a regular basis. The human body is not yet fully understood, but we are getting there. Hundreds of years ago fighting off ANY disease was considered a miracle & act of a god. Now we know more about the immune system, antibodies, cancers and the like.

Here is my take on your experience: You had a pre-disposition to religious healing, coming from a very religious family background. You were watching a television show about faith healing, knowing you were very ill. When the preacher randomly picked an illness, and it was yours, the excitement & adrenalin must have been overpowering...especially at such a young impressionable age. I too have felt that rush, that "liquid feeling" wash over me, but it wasnt from a god. I had mine after slamming on the brakes and narrowly missing another car & potential accident. The brain is capable of producing a plethora of euphoric chemicals.

I would call what happened to you akin to hypnotism. Not the "cluck like a chicken" kind but the self-help kind. Your mind was totally open to the idea, you were presented with your inner desire and your own body was energized by the thought and fought off the disease.

As a side note, you also could also have been mis-diagnosed...it does happen.

Regardless, I am glad that you are now well.

[jay_a2j]

stinkycheese,


You convienetly didn't answer my question.

Secondly how would your professor explain the FACT that the MS is gone?

Is it possible that:

a) I had MS for which there is no known cure

b) I have faith in God and others prayed for me.

c) because of my faith and the prayers of others I was healed by God.

d) I felt the healing and it was NOT a fabrication of my mind.

e) You are an atheist and no amount of evidence that points to God will convince you.

[jay_a2j]

People of all (and no) religion who are terminally ill, spontaneously get better. This happenes in hospitals on a regular basis. The human body is not yet fully understood, but we are getting there. Hundreds of years ago fighting off ANY disease was considered a miracle & act of a god. Now we know more about the immune system, antibodies, cancers and the like.

Here is my take on your experience: You had a pre-disposition to religious healing, coming from a very religious family background. You were watching a television show about faith healing, knowing you were very ill. When the preacher randomly picked an illness, and it was yours, the excitement & adrenalin must have been overpowering...especially at such a young impressionable age. I too have felt that rush, that "liquid feeling" wash over me, but it wasnt from a god. I had mine after slamming on the brakes and narrowly missing another car & potential accident. The brain is capable of producing a plethora of euphoric chemicals.

I would call what happened to you akin to hypnotism. Not the "cluck like a chicken" kind but the self-help kind. Your mind was totally open to the idea, you were presented with your inner desire and your own body was energized by the thought and fought off the disease.

As a side note, you also could also have been mis-diagnosed...it does happen.

Regardless, I am glad that you are now well.

Well, I've been in "near miss" car accidents but never felt what you describe. A propane truck ran a red light (no brakes) and slammed into me as I was crossing the intersection in my Ford Fairmont. Without thinking, as I noticed the truck comming at me I steped on the accelorator. My car was crushed, my backseat reduced to half its original size....inches away from where I was sitting, behind me. Did me stepping on the accelorator save my life? Why did I step on the accelorator? (this was done without thinking about it) I was taken to the ER for precausionary measures and walked home from the ER. Call it what you wish, I have seen the hand of God many times in my life and your non-belief will never lead me away from the truth.


And a misdiagnosis is extreamly unlikely...I had ALL the classic symptoms of MS, numbness, double vision, difficulty walking. It took several doctors 3 months to finally diagnose me ,after going through an MRI and Spinal Tap. Thomas (doubting) will come up with anything for a reason so that he doesn't have to admit God is.

[stinkycheese]

Secondly how would your professor explain the FACT that the MS is gone?

My professor wouldn't explain anything because he was merely pointing out how your thought process is unintelligible. I'm not sitting here saying that it wasn't god because I for one do not know the answer, however I'm telling you that with the evidence you have shown there is absolutely no link to god. You are coming up with an answer that is basically just satisfying your need for a simple explanation without providing any substantial proof.

a) I had MS for which there is no known cure

That is true. No known cure exists, including god. God is not a known cure and prayer is not a known cure. It is simply coincidence that prayer and you being cured occured together.

b) I have faith in God and others prayed for me.

That is also true. What I don't understand is how that can be seen as evidence that god healed you. This does not follow...you are assuming that this statement proves more than it actually does.

c) because of my faith and the prayers of others I was healed by God.

I guess I already answered this above...well sort of
The above statement is not true. This is another confusion of cause. i actually already went over this in an earlier post. I don't know why you are trying to use it as evidence again because it is simply illogical to relate these events to each other (which doesn't mean you are wrong, it just means that with this evidence you cannot prove yourself right). You are also using false dichotomy when you state that "either god heals a person of MS or they don't get healed at all."

Just because you don't have an answer to the question of what cured you does not mean that you have to seek out an irrational solution to give you closure.

d) I felt the healing and it was NOT a fabrication of my mind.

I did not state that it was a fabrication of your mind. I only said that memory is not a valid source of evidence to prove your point.

e) You are an atheist and no amount of evidence that points to God will convince you.

There is no evidence that points to god. In fact all of your evidence is just stuff that happened. You just declare god as the answer so that you can feel secure.

[Backglass]

Call it what you wish

I will. I call any who believes in the supernatural delusional.

I have seen the hand of God many times in my life

Of course you have. If you try hard enough you might see the virgin mary in the clouds and jesus in a cornfield from the air. You can see anything if you look hard enough, and you look very hard as it's the center of your life.

But that doesnt make it real.

your non-belief will never lead me away from the truth.

You are probably right. You have thouroughly convinced yourself and to turn back now would be having to admit brainwashing since birth. Plus you have a large support system of similarly confused folks who back you up. You tell your story, they all say "hallelujah" and your beliefs are reinforced. You have a very happy (albeit delusional) life.

And a misdiagnosis is extreamly unlikely

Probably so...but it does happen. Just thought I would mention it.