Christians and Muslims would probably dislike me for this..

[Guiscard]

That might be a small reason, but the Muslims were largely tolerant of Jews in the area after Mohammed's death. They were fellow people of the book (like Christians and Zoroastrians) -- the only stipulation was that they pay a tax... it wasn't until the Zionist movement that a big controversy started. I think.

This is about right, yes. In terms of the modern idea of toleration, the Jews were persecuted to a much greater degree in Christian Europe than they were by the Muslims.

[comic boy]

Can Muslims (and this is where most people would dislike me) just be said to be another sect. of Christianity?

Or am I just talking crazy?

No. And you are either crazy or ignorant. Whereas God loves all mankind (John 3:16, I John 5:13 and Romans 5:8), the Koran is long on the good works one must do in order for Allah to even concider you for salvation (Sura 4:54), and even then you can be sent to hell (Sura 14:4), to say nothing of Allah's hate for those who turn away (Sura 3:32, 2:6-7), or who he hates (Sura 2:190, 2:276, 3:57, 4:36). Since good works are no guaritee, Jihan is the only sure way to enter Paradise (Sura 60:1-2, 3:157)

Further still, when you concider the diffences between Christ and Mohammad and the examples they both set for their respective followers.

When one understands these differences, one understands why they are not the same.[/u]

And as you wrote those words no doubt there is an advocate of Islam picking holes in the bible somewhere, no difference.

[Gregrios]

Alrighty, I was thinking. Are Muslims the Middle Eastern, South-East Asian and African kind of Christian?

Okay, that question may sound weird, but let me rephrase that. We have Christians as the majority in the Western World. In the Middle East, South East Asia and Africa, Muslims are the majority I believe. Can Muslims (and this is where most people would dislike me) just be said to be another sect. of Christianity?

Let's look at Muslims. They believe that the Prophet Mohammed is the last and greatest of the Prophets from Allah. Allah = God in English (or roughly that). It is said that the Archangel Gabriel (or something along those lines) came to Mohammed to start the truth of Allah being the one true god. See the comparisons to Christianity, or moreover, Judaism?

So, could Muslims be just another sect. of Christianity, as different sects. in Christianity have different beliefs?

Or am I just talking crazy?

I think your a little misinformed. The Prophet Mohammed doesn't claim to be any more important than any of the other prophets. In fact, he states that no one prophet is any more important than the other. I have read some of the Koran so I know some of what I'm talking about. Although I've only read about 20% of it.

I think in time poeple will realize that the beliefs of Muslims and Christians arn't all that different. I think alot of the differences are rooted from misunderstanding. I guess we'll see.

I didn't say Mohammed said he was the greatest, I said that Muslims believe he is the greatest. Why else would they have to travel to Mecca once in their life time as it was the holy city of Mohammed?

I don't know why Muslims would put Mohammed on a pedistal. Unless their reading a different Koran than I. Once again, I think it all comes down to misunderstanding. I'm not 100% sure but I think Medina is supposed to be the Holy City of Mohammed.

[herndawg]

Alrighty, I was thinking. Are Muslims the Middle Eastern, South-East Asian and African kind of Christian?

Okay, that question may sound weird, but let me rephrase that. We have Christians as the majority in the Western World. In the Middle East, South East Asia and Africa, Muslims are the majority I believe. Can Muslims (and this is where most people would dislike me) just be said to be another sect. of Christianity?

Let's look at Muslims. They believe that the Prophet Mohammed is the last and greatest of the Prophets from Allah. Allah = God in English (or roughly that). It is said that the Archangel Gabriel (or something along those lines) came to Mohammed to start the truth of Allah being the one true god. See the comparisons to Christianity, or moreover, Judaism?

So, could Muslims be just another sect. of Christianity, as different sects. in Christianity have different beliefs?

Or am I just talking crazy?

Christian means Christ Follower. A term used by non-Christians in his era to talk about them. Christians are to be ambassadors to Christ, his hands and feet in the world. To do what Jesus did from healing the sick and raising the dead to eating with sinners and loving unconditionally. They understand they are children of God and choose to serve. Also being crucified with Christ. (Gal 2:20) Christians believe Jesus is and was God in the flesh. Many religions claim to be part of Christianity but are separated by this ONE issue. Obviously there are more differences than this but this one separates all.

No other religion believes this. The Jews crucified Jesus because he claimed it and that was blasphemy to them and they didn't want to loose their power. They knew what was prophesied in the Bible and rejected it, but not all of them, mostly the ones who held the power.



Many people and religions call Jesus a prophet. Even a great prophet. But definetly not Lord. Big difference.

Jesus said-Rev 17- "I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead and behold I am alive forever and ever. And I hold the keys of Death and Hades."
Rev 1-"I am the Alpha and Omega, who was and is and is to come."
Rev2:8 "These are the words of him who is the First and the last, who died and came to life again."
Luke 5:20 "Friend, your sins are forgiven." - (who has authority to forgive sins?)
Luke 6:5 - "The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."
Luke 5:34 Jesus says he is the Bridegroom. Referring to the song of songs. Marriage supper of the Lamb
Mark 14:62 "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed one?" "I am, and you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."
after this the priest tore his clothes, a sign that Jesus just commited Blasphemy and deserved to be crucified.
John 10:30 I and The Father are One.
John 13:13 Call me teacher and Lord and rightly so for that is what I am.
John 14:6 For I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
John 14:9 Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father.

John Said
John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

Moses said God said
Gen 1:26 - "Let us make man in Our image, in Our likeness"
plural because God is the Father, Holy Spirit and the Word (Jesus)

You will not find a Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, Buddhist, Jew, Muslim, Evolutionist, Atheist, Shinto, Hindu, or others who believe Jesus is God. It's hard enough to find people who call themselves Christians to belive in what Jesus did. They are often the very worst offenders of being total judgmental asses and hurting people rather than loving them. A common thing I hear is that people have seen more love and acceptance in the Party Life they once had than they have seen in the church. Religion kills. Jesus Saves.

Similarities don't matter much sometimes. Like a man-eating tiger has 4 legs just like a black lab. They also have fur, eyes, blood, eat meat, a tail, live on earth, breather air, can have bad breath and be served in Chinese Buffet's. But the difference is when you put peanut butter on your face a black lab will lick it off and a man-eating tiger will...........well the point is, there are plenty of similarities in everything, the differences are what matter sometimes.

I feel like this response is so long but your thread is great and anyone who gets offended has a real problem of their own anyhow. So forget them anyway.

Blessings
Matthew 6:33

oh yea, Joseph Smith also saw and Angel of light, or 3, or 5. Lucifer was the Angel of Light and Music. The most beautiful of all Angels. Demons are also Angels. Just a thought

[unriggable]

Jesus said Rev 22:20 "Surely I come quickly"

So next time you have a hard time in the sack, just quote that, for you are divine when it takes you three minutes to do what has to be done.

[DaGip]

Yeah Neutrino is right they both come from Judaism.

And Judaism came from Egyptian religious concepts...it goes on and on, so Islam/Christianity/Judaism are all sects of Ancient Egyptian beliefs.

[Guiscard]

Yeah Neutrino is right they both come from Judaism.

And Judaism came from Egyptian religious concepts...it goes on and on, so Islam/Christianity/Judaism are all sects of Ancient Egyptian beliefs.

Not really sects. The departure from a polytheistic religion to a monotheistic one is a much greater change than should be awarded 'sect' status. Islam and Christianity are both sects of Judaism because at their core is a shared Abrahamic God. Interpretations over prophets and the like are exactly what 'sects' are all about. Judaism is a religion in its own right by any degree of recognition.

[Caleb the Cruel]

Alrighty, I was thinking. Are Muslims the Middle Eastern, South-East Asian and African kind of Christian?

Okay, that question may sound weird, but let me rephrase that. We have Christians as the majority in the Western World. In the Middle East, South East Asia and Africa, Muslims are the majority I believe. Can Muslims (and this is where most people would dislike me) just be said to be another sect. of Christianity?

Let's look at Muslims. They believe that the Prophet Mohammed is the last and greatest of the Prophets from Allah. Allah = God in English (or roughly that). It is said that the Archangel Gabriel (or something along those lines) came to Mohammed to start the truth of Allah being the one true god. See the comparisons to Christianity, or moreover, Judaism?

So, could Muslims be just another sect. of Christianity, as different sects. in Christianity have different beliefs?

Or am I just talking crazy?

Christianity focuses on Christ and we believe Christ is God made man.

Islam denies that Christ is God and only refers to him as a prophet. Since Islam denies one of the most important teachings in Christianity, Islam is not a sect of Chistianity.

[unriggable]

Caleb = right. That's the official definition of Christianity, as made clear in the name. Over time more shit was added to the religion, namely more gospels and books, like Revelations, and beyond that there are angels, demons, saints, satanists, which further separated Christianity from its Judaic roots.

[Jenos Ridan]

Begin Religious Argument Thread!

No. And you are either crazy or ignorant. Whereas God loves all mankind (John 3:16, I John 5:13 and Romans 5:8), the Koran is long on the good works one must do in order for Allah to even concider you for salvation (Sura 4:54), and even then you can be sent to hell (Sura 14:4), to say nothing of Allah's hate for those who turn away (Sura 3:32, 2:6-7), or who he hates (Sura 2:190, 2:276, 3:57, 4:36). Since good works are no guaritee, Jihan is the only sure way to enter Paradise (Sura 60:1-2, 3:157)

Completely different from the Christian God who absolutely does not damn people to for all eternity hell for petty things like idolatry, theft, adultary, or simply being Non-Christian, then? God's infinite benevolence towards homosexuals is amazing to behold.
Your amazing short sightedness when it comes to your own religion always confuses me...

The Christian God wants us to love him; I made that clear with the underlined part of my prior statement. The Bible has to be taken in context of the New Testament first, Old Testament last and all verses in the former in context of eachother. For the moment, I'll let that sink in.

On a sidenote: so it is prefectly acceptable behavior for people to cheat on their sponces and steal from their neighbors ? And I thought I was supposed to be the irrational one .

In the meantime, concider the following:

First of all, Muslims in Africa stick mainly to the Northern countries, and even then aren't always the majority (look at Ethiopia). Another thing, Mohammed took what he liked of the Christians and Jews in the area where he lived, and then added in his own stuff. And when he asked the Jews in the area to make him a prophet, at least recognize him as one, they refused to do so. Needless to say this probably sparked the "conflict" in the Middle East between the two. Muslims also started spreading their beliefs by the sword, Christians (the early ones of the Roman Empire and the likes) spread it by word of mouth, not the sword. And when Constatine came around, Christianity was already widespread throughout the empire, and not by the sword. Islam on the other hand, began by the sword. Spreading throughout North Africa and the Middle East making people either convert by the sword, or killing them. And don't bother with the Crusades, I'm comparing how both religions began and how they first spread out throughout the Mediterranean area. Though, in actuality, the Muslim conquests lasted much longer then the Crusades did. From the initial spread from what is now Arabia, to the Turk conquests into South Eastern Europe in the 14-1500s, if not later. About 1000 years, give or take. Also, you have to look at the teachings as well, like Jesus taught to be kind to others while Mohamed taught to conquer others through force. If you don't believe me, look at the history and teachings of the two and notice the startling differences.

Christianity focuses on Christ and we believe Christ is God made man.

Islam denies that Christ is God and only refers to him as a prophet. Since Islam denies one of the most important teachings in Christianity, Islam is not a sect of Chistianity.

Christian means Christ Follower. A term used by non-Christians in his era to talk about them. Christians are to be ambassadors to Christ, his hands and feet in the world. To do what Jesus did from healing the sick and raising the dead to eating with sinners and loving unconditionally. They understand they are children of God and choose to serve. Also being crucified with Christ. (Gal 2:20) Christians believe Jesus is and was God in the flesh. Many religions claim to be part of Christianity but are separated by this ONE issue. Obviously there are more differences than this but this one separates all.

No other religion believes this. The Jews crucified Jesus because he claimed it and that was blasphemy to them and they didn't want to loose their power. They knew what was prophesied in the Bible and rejected it, but not all of them, mostly the ones who held the power.



Many people and religions call Jesus a prophet. Even a great prophet. But definetly not Lord. Big difference.

Jesus said-Rev 17- "I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead and behold I am alive forever and ever. And I hold the keys of Death and Hades."
Rev 1-"I am the Alpha and Omega, who was and is and is to come."
Rev2:8 "These are the words of him who is the First and the last, who died and came to life again."
Luke 5:20 "Friend, your sins are forgiven." - (who has authority to forgive sins?)
Luke 6:5 - "The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."
Luke 5:34 Jesus says he is the Bridegroom. Referring to the song of songs. Marriage supper of the Lamb
Mark 14:62 "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed one?" "I am, and you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."
after this the priest tore his clothes, a sign that Jesus just commited Blasphemy and deserved to be crucified.
John 10:30 I and The Father are One.
John 13:13 Call me teacher and Lord and rightly so for that is what I am.
John 14:6 For I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
John 14:9 Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father.

John Said
John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

Moses said God said
Gen 1:26 - "Let us make man in Our image, in Our likeness"
plural because God is the Father, Holy Spirit and the Word (Jesus)

You will not find a Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, Buddhist, Jew, Muslim, Evolutionist, Atheist, Shinto, Hindu, or others who believe Jesus is God. It's hard enough to find people who call themselves Christians to belive in what Jesus did. They are often the very worst offenders of being total judgmental asses and hurting people rather than loving them. A common thing I hear is that people have seen more love and acceptance in the Party Life they once had than they have seen in the church. Religion kills. Jesus Saves.

Similarities don't matter much sometimes. Like a man-eating tiger has 4 legs just like a black lab. They also have fur, eyes, blood, eat meat, a tail, live on earth, breather air, can have bad breath and be served in Chinese Buffet's. But the difference is when you put peanut butter on your face a black lab will lick it off and a man-eating tiger will...........well the point is, there are plenty of similarities in everything, the differences are what matter sometimes.

I feel like this response is so long but your thread is great and anyone who gets offended has a real problem of their own anyhow. So forget them anyway.

Blessings
Matthew 6:33

oh yea, Joseph Smith also saw and Angel of light, or 3, or 5. Lucifer was the Angel of Light and Music. The most beautiful of all Angels. Demons are also Angels. Just a thought

Come back to me when you have thought it all through.

[Iliad]

Alrighty, I was thinking. Are Muslims the Middle Eastern, South-East Asian and African kind of Christian?

Okay, that question may sound weird, but let me rephrase that. We have Christians as the majority in the Western World. In the Middle East, South East Asia and Africa, Muslims are the majority I believe. Can Muslims (and this is where most people would dislike me) just be said to be another sect. of Christianity?

Let's look at Muslims. They believe that the Prophet Mohammed is the last and greatest of the Prophets from Allah. Allah = God in English (or roughly that). It is said that the Archangel Gabriel (or something along those lines) came to Mohammed to start the truth of Allah being the one true god. See the comparisons to Christianity, or moreover, Judaism?

So, could Muslims be just another sect. of Christianity, as different sects. in Christianity have different beliefs?

Or am I just talking crazy?

Christianity focuses on Christ and we believe Christ is God made man.

Islam denies that Christ is God and only refers to him as a prophet. Since Islam denies one of the most important teachings in Christianity, Islam is not a sect of Chistianity.

I think you kinda missed the point.

Reed isn't asking whether they are exactly the same. OF course you can provide differences. He's asking whether perhaps they started out the same but they changed in their own enviroments

[MeDeFe]

On a sidenote: so it is prefectly acceptable behavior for people to cheat on their sponces and steal from their neighbors? And I thought I was supposed to be the irrational one.

Counterquestion: is eternal torture really a fitting punishment for, say, getting drunk and having sex with someone other than your spouse?
Jenos, there are better reasons for not stealing and not breaking ones word (which is what adultery amounts to) than "It's in this book which says it's the word of GOD and therefore it's the word of GOD and it's true".
That's the only argument for the veracity bible I can recall, maybe you can think of another.

[comic boy]

Alrighty, I was thinking. Are Muslims the Middle Eastern, South-East Asian and African kind of Christian?

Okay, that question may sound weird, but let me rephrase that. We have Christians as the majority in the Western World. In the Middle East, South East Asia and Africa, Muslims are the majority I believe. Can Muslims (and this is where most people would dislike me) just be said to be another sect. of Christianity?

Let's look at Muslims. They believe that the Prophet Mohammed is the last and greatest of the Prophets from Allah. Allah = God in English (or roughly that). It is said that the Archangel Gabriel (or something along those lines) came to Mohammed to start the truth of Allah being the one true god. See the comparisons to Christianity, or moreover, Judaism?

So, could Muslims be just another sect. of Christianity, as different sects. in Christianity have different beliefs?

Or am I just talking crazy?

Christianity focuses on Christ and we believe Christ is God made man.

Islam denies that Christ is God and only refers to him as a prophet. Since Islam denies one of the most important teachings in Christianity, Islam is not a sect of Chistianity.

I think you kinda missed the point.

Reed isn't asking whether they are exactly the same. OF course you can provide differences. He's asking whether perhaps they started out the same but they changed in their own enviroments

I think they are deliberately missing the point

[unriggable]

Everything underlined isnt true.

First of all, Muslims in Africa stick mainly to the Northern countries, and even then aren't always the majority (look at Ethiopia). Another thing, Mohammed took what he liked of the Christians and Jews in the area where he lived, and then added in his own stuff. And when he asked the Jews in the area to make him a prophet, at least recognize him as one, they refused to do so. Needless to say this probably sparked the "conflict" in the Middle East between the two. Muslims also started spreading their beliefs by the sword, Christians (the early ones of the Roman Empire and the likes) spread it by word of mouth, not the sword. And when Constatine came around, Christianity was already widespread throughout the empire, and not by the sword. Islam on the other hand, began by the sword. Spreading throughout North Africa and the Middle East making people either convert by the sword, or killing them. And don't bother with the Crusades, I'm comparing how both religions began and how they first spread out throughout the Mediterranean area. Though, in actuality, the Muslim conquests lasted much longer then the Crusades did. From the initial spread from what is now Arabia, to the Turk conquests into South Eastern Europe in the 14-1500s, if not later. About 1000 years, give or take. Also, you have to look at the teachings as well, like Jesus taught to be kind to others while Mohamed taught to conquer others through force. If you don't believe me, look at the history and teachings of the two and notice the startling differences.

Trust me, that's not true. Mohammed wrote the five pillars as the most important part of Islam, one of them is to love others as you'd love yourself. The early years of Islam made it widespread because of the primitive clan culture of the Arabian Peninsula, and it wasn't until perversion began to take hold that the sword was being used. I have to go but I'll post more on this later.

[Guiscard]

Everything underlined isnt true.

First of all, Muslims in Africa stick mainly to the Northern countries, and even then aren't always the majority (look at Ethiopia). Another thing, Mohammed took what he liked of the Christians and Jews in the area where he lived, and then added in his own stuff. And when he asked the Jews in the area to make him a prophet, at least recognize him as one, they refused to do so. Needless to say this probably sparked the "conflict" in the Middle East between the two. Muslims also started spreading their beliefs by the sword, Christians (the early ones of the Roman Empire and the likes) spread it by word of mouth, not the sword. And when Constatine came around, Christianity was already widespread throughout the empire, and not by the sword. Islam on the other hand, began by the sword. Spreading throughout North Africa and the Middle East making people either convert by the sword, or killing them. And don't bother with the Crusades, I'm comparing how both religions began and how they first spread out throughout the Mediterranean area. Though, in actuality, the Muslim conquests lasted much longer then the Crusades did. From the initial spread from what is now Arabia, to the Turk conquests into South Eastern Europe in the 14-1500s, if not later. About 1000 years, give or take. Also, you have to look at the teachings as well, like Jesus taught to be kind to others while Mohamed taught to conquer others through force. If you don't believe me, look at the history and teachings of the two and notice the startling differences.

Trust me, that's not true. Mohammed wrote the five pillars as the most important part of Islam, one of them is to love others as you'd love yourself. The early years of Islam made it widespread because of the primitive clan culture of the Arabian Peninsula, and it wasn't until perversion began to take hold that the sword was being used. I have to go but I'll post more on this later.

Trust me, He isn't gonna listen.

edit: Thought this post was referring to Jenos originally, so have removed the applicable flame.

[muy_thaiguy]

Everything underlined isnt true.

First of all, Muslims in Africa stick mainly to the Northern countries, and even then aren't always the majority (look at Ethiopia). Another thing, Mohammed took what he liked of the Christians and Jews in the area where he lived, and then added in his own stuff. And when he asked the Jews in the area to make him a prophet, at least recognize him as one, they refused to do so. Needless to say this probably sparked the "conflict" in the Middle East between the two. Muslims also started spreading their beliefs by the sword, Christians (the early ones of the Roman Empire and the likes) spread it by word of mouth, not the sword. And when Constatine came around, Christianity was already widespread throughout the empire, and not by the sword. Islam on the other hand, began by the sword. Spreading throughout North Africa and the Middle East making people either convert by the sword, or killing them. And don't bother with the Crusades, I'm comparing how both religions began and how they first spread out throughout the Mediterranean area. Though, in actuality, the Muslim conquests lasted much longer then the Crusades did. From the initial spread from what is now Arabia, to the Turk conquests into South Eastern Europe in the 14-1500s, if not later. About 1000 years, give or take. Also, you have to look at the teachings as well, like Jesus taught to be kind to others while Mohamed taught to conquer others through force. If you don't believe me, look at the history and teachings of the two and notice the startling differences.

Trust me, that's not true. Mohammed wrote the five pillars as the most important part of Islam, one of them is to love others as you'd love yourself. The early years of Islam made it widespread because of the primitive clan culture of the Arabian Peninsula, and it wasn't until perversion began to take hold that the sword was being used. I have to go but I'll post more on this later.

Trust me, He isn't gonna listen.

edit: Thought this post was referring to Jenos originally, so have removed the applicable flame.

Really? I'll admit that the source I got this info from was biased, biased in the fact that it was told by Muslims for non-Muslims. And it is quite recent, being made shortly after 9/11. It may not have said out right that Mohamed conquered by the sword, but it sure gives the impression.

[Guiscard]

Really? I'll admit that the source I got this info from was biased, biased in the fact that it was told by Muslims for non-Muslims. And it is quite recent, being made shortly after 9/11. It may not have said out right that Mohamed conquered by the sword, but it sure gives the impression.

You have to take such things in proper historical context. The early Christians were certainly not violent. How could they be? They were an underground sect. That doesn't mean the Church didn't espouse violent means when it was able to. Christianity is just as much a religion spread by the sword as Islam is. Both hold peaceful tenants at their core, and both fully advocate violence for their cause as well. The differences are certainly there, however. Christ was preaching in a time of relative peace and stability, whereas Muhammad was in a much more unstable and turbulent location, both politically and chronologically. The problem people tend to have when debating this subject is that they are viewing Christianity and Islam through a set of modern glasses, complete with modern ideas of toleration, violence / peace, morality, temporal/spiritual divides etc. etc. If you study the early church, or the origins of Islam, you eventually form a picture of a very different world. To many early Christians some of the things Christ said, and the way the Church interpreted those teachings, very much advocated violent spreading of the faith.

[Jenos Ridan]

On a sidenote: so it is prefectly acceptable behavior for people to cheat on their sponces and steal from their neighbors? And I thought I was supposed to be the irrational one.

Counterquestion: is eternal torture really a fitting punishment for, say, getting drunk and having sex with someone other than your spouse?
Jenos, there are better reasons for not stealing and not breaking ones word (which is what adultery amounts to) than "It's in this book which says it's the word of GOD and therefore it's the word of GOD and it's true".
That's the only argument for the veracity bible I can recall, maybe you can think of another.

Belated reply to counterinquery: the eternal tortment (in says torment, not torture, as most are led to believe) is the result of one's choises bringing them to a place of separation from God; Hell. People can, and are, forgiven for mistakes, assuming said person repents and asks for forgiveness; since we are asked to and not told. Freedom of will is a must in order to believe, else you are just practicing ritual, which is not what Jesus came to being to us (when He died, the obligations of the old way were nullifed. The bit about the torn veil and all that good stuff).

Inquery specifically to your senario:
But will your wife forgive you, even if you were drunk, for breaking you vows? I should think not, because people at some point must own up to their actions, "reap what you sow" and all that.

[Jenos Ridan]

Really? I'll admit that the source I got this info from was biased, biased in the fact that it was told by Muslims for non-Muslims. And it is quite recent, being made shortly after 9/11. It may not have said out right that Mohamed conquered by the sword, but it sure gives the impression.

You have to take such things in proper historical context. The early Christians were certainly not violent. How could they be? They were an underground sect. That doesn't mean the Church didn't espouse violent means when it was able to. Christianity is just as much a religion spread by the sword as Islam is. Both hold peaceful tenants at their core, and both fully advocate violence for their cause as well. The differences are certainly there, however. Christ was preaching in a time of relative peace and stability, whereas Muhammad was in a much more unstable and turbulent location, both politically and chronologically. The problem people tend to have when debating this subject is that they are viewing Christianity and Islam through a set of modern glasses, complete with modern ideas of toleration, violence / peace, morality, temporal/spiritual divides etc. etc. If you study the early church, or the origins of Islam, you eventually form a picture of a very different world. To many early Christians some of the things Christ said, and the way the Church interpreted those teachings, very much advocated violent spreading of the faith.

So Islam is peaceful in spite of the Koran being long on the good works one must do in order for Allah to even concider you for salvation (Sura 4:54), and even then you can be justly sent to hell (Sura 14:4, 2:284), to say nothing of Allah's hate for those who turn away (Sura 3:32, 2:6-7), or who he hates (Sura 2:190, 2:276, 3:57, 4:36)? Since good works are no guaritee, Jihad is the only sure way to enter Paradise (Sura 60:1-2, 3:157). Further, Sura 8:65, 2:193 and 9:29 speak loudly about having to war with Infidels being a central factor in Islam. Allah can even, apparently, deceive his followers in Sura 8:30 and in Sura 32:13 and 2:106 he is terribly inconsistant. The nature of a faith is found it the tenants it holds to: In Christianity, the key tenant is that man is not capable of saving himself and is surely not worthy of it, and yet, we are given salvation when we repent; thus God loves man. In Islam, it appears that man is ment to be both Allah's through rug and pawns for his sick amusement.

Care to assert that Islam is by nature non-violent? There ara a great many verses in the Koran and Hadith that say how important war is to the faith.

[Iliad]

You say it like Christianity is any different. Drop the bullshit there are plenty of quotes in the bible which are on the lines:
kill everyone who doesn't believe in christianity.

[Neutrino]

Belated reply to counterinquery: the eternal tortment (in says torment, not torture, as most are led to believe) is the result of one's choises bringing them to a place of separation from God; Hell. People can, and are, forgiven for mistakes, assuming said person repents and asks for forgiveness; since we are asked to and not told. Freedom of will is a must in order to believe, else you are just practicing ritual, which is not what Jesus came to being to us (when He died, the obligations of the old way were nullifed. The bit about the torn veil and all that good stuff).

Is this repentence available after death, or is it a purely before death thing (according to whatever sect you belong too)? If it's the former; all well and good. Repentence might be a little much, but even the most die-hard athiest will admit that God probably does exist when confronted with eternal damnation. If it's strictly before-death, then your assertion that God is all-loving falls flat on it's face. Eternal torment for having a naturally skeptical personality seems a bit much. Or never being exposed to the religion. Or choosing a different religion Or...

Inquery specifically to your senario:
But will your wife forgive you, even if you were drunk, for breaking you vows? I should think not, because people at some point must own up to their actions, "reap what you sow" and all that.

Your spouce leaving you is a reasonable punishment for what you did. Eternal damnation, however, is not.
Basically, it's the death sentence for littering.

[comic boy]

My god is better than your God .....Nah Nan Nah Nah Nah

This is the sort of nonsense that has led to millions of deaths over the centuries and a prime reason why many of us have no truck with religion.
I have read time and time again that those who have in the past raped and killed in the name of the lord are not true ' Christians 'but I tell you this, they probably started off in a very mild way and escalated their hatred over time. Surely one of the most cherished ideals must be to promote love and understanding towards our fellow man, respect the faith of others as you would expect others to respect yours.

[Skittles!]

To quote my religious teacher

religious wars have been going on for centuries, with basically fighting over whose invisible friend is better

Or something along those lines. it was hilarious

[Guiscard]

Care to assert that Islam is by nature non-violent?

No, because you are an ideological brick wall. The last time I gave you plenty of evidence about Jihad and Holy War being a concept invented centuries after Muhammad's death, and you only shut up when I posted the bibliography I had to plough through as a second year undergrad (now researching for a PhD), just to prove I have done a little reading around the subject of early Islam and it's interaction with Christianity. There is categorically no point going through each of your references and refuting them, or pointing out the obvious parallels with Christianity... It's all been done before, it will be done again, and you'll carry on in the little secure closed-minded world you seem to inhabit currently. We know. The Bible is Good, and contradictions, worrying passages, violent actions my man and God... they are metaphors, or we're interpreting them wrongly... The Koran is Bad, so we can find numerous examples in a similar way to the Bible and they prove the point. No interpretation, no context, no attempt to perhaps understand a little historical fact. Muy Thaiguy ended his post with 'It may not have said out right that Mohamed conquered by the sword, but it sure gives the impression.' That, to me, indicates he is open to a frank discussion of the issues, and may take on board something of what others say. I, in turn, am more than willing to listen to his thoughts, read his arguments, and perhaps I'll agree with them somewhat. I may even change my opinioon on a few matters, as I have in the past when debating with people like Colossal.

So no, Jenos, I don't want to have the discussion with you.

[Symmetry]

Guiscard...

Meh, I refer to what lackattack wrote.