Are athiests more intelligent than theists?

got tonkaed · Post by **got tonkaed** » Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:30 pm

groove, does hope have to in any way come from something external to this life?

Neoteny · Post by **Neoteny** » Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:32 pm

Grooveman2007 wrote:
Neoteny wrote:
Grooveman2007 wrote:
LYR wrote:Underseage, just because humanity wants to find some meaning in life, when they know they can't, doesn't make them idiots. They just want to know that they have a purpose in life, and, hell, maybe their right, and God really does exist. Everyone has a God. Even if you are not religious, I'm sure that you must believe in some higher being that created us all. However, I do agree with you that organized religion does have its faults, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't help the billions and billions of people on earth get through a terrible depression. You should thank your lives for organized religion, for, without it, this world would have no morales and it would be a terrible place to live in (just look at the story of noah and the ark).

I would actually look more at the story of Jonah and the Whale (yes, I know that it probably never happened, but I tend to look at the Bible metaphorically). Jonah was a man who had fled from God, and shunned him from his life. Yet when things got tough, and as Jonah lost hope, he turned to God for guidance. My point: When one's situation becomes desperate, when humans are facing death in the eye, when they need just one faint glimmer of hope, they turn to God. When you live a nice, sheltered, secular life, it is easy to mock religion has medieval superstition, as nonsense that belongs in the 10th century. But when you are are on your deathbed,I doubt that your thoughts would be "well, in a few hours I'll just be another rotting corpse." No you will be looking at heavan and awaiting eternal peace and joy. That is why places like Sub-Saharan Africa have such a high number of belivers, because all they have is hope. Without hope, humanity would've resigned itself to death and defeat centuries ago. Without God, humanity would've given up and withered away. The idea of God lifts people from their fears and tells them to keep going forward. After all, there are no atheists in foxholes.

And people wonder why some atheists dislike religion so much. This is an excellent example of a the condescending tone inherent in a theist perspective. "Without people like us, humanity would fail." Who are you to say what an atheist thinks before he or she dies? If I were in a foxhole, I would be pissed off, and still a fucking atheist. What the hell is wrong with you people. Who do you think you are?

Would life be worth living without hope?

Not all of us find hope from god of any kind. Not all of us need god for hope. I prefer to rely on myself, my friends, and my family for hope. I don't need supernatural intervention to keep my life where I want it to be. That would be taking away from the hope I get from those I love.

Grooveman2007 · Post by **Grooveman2007** » Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:33 pm

got tonkaed wrote:groove, does hope have to in any way come from something external to this life?

No, but my point is that religion has been most people's hope, most people with nothing have only their faith to turn to. I'm not implying that God is the only hope, just the most common one. If you find other forms of hope that's great, but Religion has been there for most.

Neoteny · Post by **Neoteny** » Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:34 pm

Grooveman2007 wrote:
got tonkaed wrote:groove, does hope have to in any way come from something external to this life?

No, but my point is that religion has been most people's hope, most people with nothing have only their faith to turn to. I'm not implying that God is the only hope, just the most common one.

You made your point slightly pretentiously. If some people need god, more power to them. Don't imply that anyone else does.

Grooveman2007 · Post by **Grooveman2007** » Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:44 pm

Neoteny wrote:
Grooveman2007 wrote:
got tonkaed wrote:groove, does hope have to in any way come from something external to this life?

No, but my point is that religion has been most people's hope, most people with nothing have only their faith to turn to. I'm not implying that God is the only hope, just the most common one.

You made your point slightly pretentiously. If some people need god, more power to them. Don't imply that anyone else does.

Well, it's hard to convey intentions online in the more intellectual conversations, smily faces only go so far.

Neoteny · Post by **Neoteny** » Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:45 pm

Grooveman2007 wrote:
Neoteny wrote:
Grooveman2007 wrote:
got tonkaed wrote:groove, does hope have to in any way come from something external to this life?

No, but my point is that religion has been most people's hope, most people with nothing have only their faith to turn to. I'm not implying that God is the only hope, just the most common one.

You made your point slightly pretentiously. If some people need god, more power to them. Don't imply that anyone else does.

Well, it's hard to convey intentions online in the more intellectual conversations, smily faces only go so far.

I've been a victim of misinterpretations of tone in the past. But I'm not sure how else an atheist is supposed to interpret "There are no atheists in foxholes." I don't mean to be a dick, but I think its an important point.

Grooveman2007 · Post by **Grooveman2007** » Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:47 pm

Neoteny wrote:
Grooveman2007 wrote:
Neoteny wrote:
Grooveman2007 wrote:
got tonkaed wrote:groove, does hope have to in any way come from something external to this life?

No, but my point is that religion has been most people's hope, most people with nothing have only their faith to turn to. I'm not implying that God is the only hope, just the most common one.

You made your point slightly pretentiously. If some people need god, more power to them. Don't imply that anyone else does.

Well, it's hard to convey intentions online in the more intellectual conversations, smily faces only go so far.

I've been a victim of misinterpretations of tone in the past. But I'm not sure how else an atheist is supposed to interpret "There are no atheists in foxholes." I don't mean to be a dick, but I think its an important point.

It's a fairly common phrase, at least where I'm from.

LYR · Post by **LYR** » Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:51 pm

Ok, Neoteny, I understand you're point of view. Still, some people even want to believe in God because it gives them hope and meaning in life, and makes their lives a whole lot easier. And, by the way, I didn't know that atheists despised religion, I just thought that they though that God does not exist and our whole existence is a meaningless nothing. This is probably the only reason I stay religious, because I just cannot except the fact that my existence on earth is completely meaningless, that it would hurt to much for me to accept that. However, however much death and destruction religion has cost (especially the church's crusades and islamic jihads), you cannot deny that it has done some good to the world, bettering people, not leading them astray towards evil and stealing and all those other things.

I would include everything that was written before this, but the only way I could think of to do that is to copy and paste, and that didn't work, so whatever.

Neoteny · Post by **Neoteny** » Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:51 pm

Grooveman2007 wrote:
Neoteny wrote:
Grooveman2007 wrote:
Neoteny wrote:
Grooveman2007 wrote:
got tonkaed wrote:groove, does hope have to in any way come from something external to this life?

No, but my point is that religion has been most people's hope, most people with nothing have only their faith to turn to. I'm not implying that God is the only hope, just the most common one.

You made your point slightly pretentiously. If some people need god, more power to them. Don't imply that anyone else does.

Well, it's hard to convey intentions online in the more intellectual conversations, smily faces only go so far.

I've been a victim of misinterpretations of tone in the past. But I'm not sure how else an atheist is supposed to interpret "There are no atheists in foxholes." I don't mean to be a dick, but I think its an important point.

It's a fairly common phrase, at least where I'm from.

I've heard it often myself. That doesn't mean it's accurate.

got tonkaed · Post by **got tonkaed** » Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:52 pm

Grooveman2007 wrote:I would actually look more at the story of Jonah and the Whale (yes, I know that it probably never happened, but I tend to look at the Bible metaphorically). Jonah was a man who had fled from God, and shunned him from his life. Yet when things got tough, and as Jonah lost hope, he turned to God for guidance. My point: When one's situation becomes desperate, when humans are facing death in the eye, when they need just one faint glimmer of hope, they turn to God. When you live a nice, sheltered, secular life, it is easy to mock religion has medieval superstition, as nonsense that belongs in the 10th century. But when you are are on your deathbed,I doubt that your thoughts would be "well, in a few hours I'll just be another rotting corpse." No you will be looking at heavan and awaiting eternal peace and joy. That is why places like Sub-Saharan Africa have such a high number of belivers, because all they have is hope. Without hope, humanity would've resigned itself to death and defeat centuries ago. Without God, humanity would've given up and withered away. The idea of God lifts people from their fears and tells them to keep going forward. After all, there are no atheists in foxholes.

I actually dont have a problem with teh argument, but here are the parts where you probably at least show an intention that suggests without religion there is less hope...

Neoteny · Post by **Neoteny** » Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:53 pm

LYR wrote:Ok, Neoteny, I understand you're point of view. Still, some people even want to believe in God because it gives them hope and meaning in life, and makes their lives a whole lot easier. And, by the way, I didn't know that atheists despised religion, I just thought that they though that God does not exist and our whole existence is a meaningless nothing. This is probably the only reason I stay religious, because I just cannot except the fact that my existence on earth is completely meaningless, that it would hurt to much for me to accept that. However, however much death and destruction religion has cost (especially the church's crusades and islamic jihads), you cannot deny that it has done some good to the world, bettering people, not leading them astray towards evil and stealing and all those other things.

I would include everything that was written before this, but the only way I could think of to do that is to copy and paste, and that didn't work, so whatever.

Some atheists do. By no means all of them. I have no doubt that there are some people who need religion (my grandmother comes to mind), but the broad generalizations about atheists are what I was reacting toward.

LYR · Post by **LYR** » Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:55 pm

So, Neoteny, what do you think? I am pretty confident in the fact that I can assume that you are an atheist, so do you despise religion?

DaGip · Post by **DaGip** » Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:58 pm

OnlyAmbrose wrote:
UnderSeage wrote:Atheists are superior beings because they are not duped by organized religion. Think for yourself and know the truth

That presupposes that we're duped...

Who is to say that a Theist belongs to an organized religion? What defines organized? I believe in one God, the God worshiped by Abraham. I believe in Jesus, but I do not believe that he was a god...God to me has no need to become part of His creation. He is the Creator and He is separate from that which He creates (this make me sound like a Muslim, but it is what I believe).

I like reading the Bible. It is a look into ancient history and is full of great and wise sayings, sayings that you can use in your life and your decisions in your life. What have atheists brought us? Stalin? That guy slaughtered some thirty million innocent people! Not to mention that before that time, in 1917 Trotsky and Lenin murdered and crucified (yes, crucified!) an estimated total of 100,000,000 Christians in Russia.

Atheists are by far a more babaric and ruthless soul than any Christian would ever dare to be (because Christians and Muslims believe in Hell. Killing in self defense is not a sin, but murdering out of cold blood is...the atheists have no moral compass, that is quite scary to me).

I have met many atheists, and they are great to talk to, and joke around. Sometimes the jokes push the limit of what I think is funny. I really don't like humor that ridicules certain groups of people, but to atheists (because they don't believe in a beneficient Creator that knows and sees all) making insensitive jokes about people and groups of people is of no consequence to them, unless they are confronted on it face to face...and then they stammer and studder and blush in the face...why? Because the very Creator that made you is telling you that you did wrong, whether you believe in God or not.

I believe that when the time comes (and that time is shortly approaching) more and more atheists will become believers in God (and I have no problem with respecting Christians and their beliefs, and I wouldn't have such a probelm with the Muslims if they would just practice non-violent and peaceful actions within their religious belief system).

Since I do not have a problem with Christians, why don't I just accept Jesus Christ as my saviour? I don't know...I really need God's help with this!

First off, I am not married anymore and I do not have anymore children...if I went to church (which I have tried) by myself, people will look at you funny! So I quit going to church, I hate that feeling...like I am being looked over and judged. It would be a different story if I was married and had some young kids, but a single 37 year old male going to church by himself...yeah, forget it! I will just pray to God and read the bible at home, thank you.

I have tried to welcom Christ into my life, but so many things happen that you just start to believe what is the use?

I really can't stand my life. I really don't know what is wrong with me! I have tried to be positvely oriented, but my pessimism has only grown in the past year or so, mostly due to world events and the fact that my only daughter seems to have broken communication off with me.

Truthfully, I can't wait to die...I look forward to that day! I want out in a bad way, but I am not suicidal...I do not want to take my own life. I just can't stand what humans are becoming and I would rather be dead then to be a slave!

Neoteny · Post by **Neoteny** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:01 am

LYR wrote:So, Neoteny, what do you think? I am pretty confident in the fact that I can assume that you are an atheist, so do you despise religion?

Heh, I don't think that was a difficult deduction. I don't despise religion. I think that it is possible to eliminate the dependency that we have been discussing and find a way to better use our time and effort. I concede that many good things are done in the name of religion, but I think those same things could be done in an atheistic society, without the downsides that occur with religious fundamentalism. I'm sure that there would be other conflicts, but my view of religion leads me to think that they would (admittedly arguably) be over something... with a bit more substance. But I'm too much of a cynic to think it'll ever happen. So I just do what I can with what I've got. And try not to sound too much like a pretentious dick in the process. I realize I fail at this sometimes.

Neoteny · Post by **Neoteny** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:02 am

DaGip wrote:
OnlyAmbrose wrote:
UnderSeage wrote:Atheists are superior beings because they are not duped by organized religion. Think for yourself and know the truth

That presupposes that we're duped...

Who is to say that a Theist belongs to an organized religion? What defines organized? I believe in one God, the God worshiped by Abraham. I believe in Jesus, but I do not believe that he was a god...God to me has no need to become part of His creation. He is the Creator and He is separate from that which He creates (this make me sound like a Muslim, but it is what I believe).

I like reading the Bible. It is a look into ancient history and is full of great and wise sayings, sayings that you can use in your life and your decisions in your life. What have atheists brought us? Stalin? That guy slaughtered some thirty million innocent people! Not to mention that before that time, in 1917 Trotsky and Lenin murdered and crucified (yes, crucified!) an estimated total of 100,000,000 Christians in Russia.

Atheists are by far a more babaric and ruthless soul than any Christian would ever dare to be (because Christians and Muslims believe in Hell. Killing in self defense is not a sin, but murdering out of cold blood is...the atheists have no moral compass, that is quite scary to me).

I have met many atheists, and they are great to talk to, and joke around. Sometimes the jokes push the limit of what I think is funny. I really don't like humor that ridicules certain groups of people, but to atheists (because they don't believe in a beneficient Creator that knows and sees all) making insensitive jokes about people and groups of people is of no consequence to them, unless they are confronted on it face to face...and then they stammer and studder and blush in the face...why? Because the very Creator that made you is telling you that you did wrong, whether you believe in God or not.

I believe that when the time comes (and that time is shortly approaching) more and more atheists will become believers in God (and I have no problem with respecting Christians and their beliefs, and I wouldn't have such a probelm with the Muslims if they would just practice non-violent and peaceful actions within their religious belief system).

Since I do not have a problem with Christians, why don't I just accept Jesus Christ as my saviour? I don't know...I really need God's help with this!

First off, I am not married anymore and I do not have anymore children...if I went to church (which I have tried) by myself, people will look at you funny! So I quit going to church, I hate that feeling...like I am being looked over and judged. It would be a different story if I was married and had some young kids, but a single 37 year old male going to church by himself...yeah, forget it! I will just pray to God and read the bible at home, thank you.

I have tried to welcom Christ into my life, but so many things happen that you just start to believe what is the use?

I really can't stand my life. I really don't know what is wrong with me! I have tried to be positvely oriented, but my pessimism has only grown in the past year or so, mostly due to world events and the fact that my only daughter seems to have broken communication off with me.

Truthfully, I can't wait to die...I look forward to that day! I want out in a bad way, but I am not suicidal...I do not want to take my own life. I just can't stand what humans are becoming and I would rather be dead then to be a slave!

I think one explosion about atheist generalizations is enough for one night...

LYR · Post by **LYR** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:04 am

Theres a book......... that I have read....... pretty famous, it's called: Way of the Peacuful Warrior. Beautiful book, completely changed my outlook on life. For those of you who have read it, wouldn't life be so much easier if you were a warrior? No one said that the rode was easy, but I would literally go to any lengths to reach such a spiritual level in life.

got tonkaed · Post by **got tonkaed** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:04 am

dagip....thats a pretty tough story in a lot of ways. Hopefully you can find something that allows you to embrace the rest of your life and hopefully raise the quality of humanity in your estimation before the end of things. Best of luck and wishes wherever faith leads you.

got tonkaed · Post by **got tonkaed** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:07 am

LYR wrote:Theres a book......... that I have read....... pretty famous, it's called: Way of the Peacuful Warrior. Beautiful book, completely changed my outlook on life. For those of you who have read it, wouldn't life be so much easier if you were a warrior? No one said that the rode was easy, but I would literally go to any lengths to reach such a spiritual level in life.

i havent read the book, but if i may venture a guess about some of the themes. A lot of times, there is an incredible peace that can be derived from integrating your life into something that is greater than you are, be it a purpose, group, or calling. If you can achieve a type of discipline that allows you to live a life in a variety of certain types of fashion, there is quite a long lasting sense of satisifaction that can be attained, or so ive read/been told.

Interestingly, if at some point in your life you decide you want that type of life for yourself, i might recommend become an astectic (i cant spell sorry). The routinization and discipline required for thats style of life is very difficult, but for many very rewarding as well.

LYR · Post by **LYR** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:11 am

Not exactly correct, buy you've got the main idea. It's about a man who has a mentor who takes him on the path to true happiness "peaceful warrior." A must read book, seriously. It will change you're life one way or another.

got tonkaed · Post by **got tonkaed** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:12 am

LYR wrote:Not exactly correct, buy you've got the main idea. It's about a man who has a mentor who takes him on the path to true happiness "peaceful warrior." A must read book, seriously. It will change you're life one way or another.

i might see if i cant pick it up out of the library or off of amazon.

OnlyAmbrose · Post by **OnlyAmbrose** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:20 am

I think the inherent flaw in the premise of this thread is that the EVERYONE, both the atheists and the theists, seem to be taking it for granted that Christians (or theists in general) believe in God because it gives them hope, or because it makes them feel good.

I'm Christian because I find it to be the most reasonable conclusion based on the evidence. This thread isn't specifically about that evidence, so I won't go into that, but I've done my best to demonstrate this evidence on a variety of occasions... heck, i think the first thread I really got involved with on CC was Jay's "logic dictates" thread, in which I endeavored to prove the fact that the universe has a beginning based on the second law of thermodynamics.

got tonkaed · Post by **got tonkaed** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:23 am

OnlyAmbrose wrote:I think the inherent flaw in the premise of this thread is that the EVERYONE, both the atheists and the theists, seem to be taking it for granted that Christians (or theists in general) believe in God because it gives them hope, or because it makes them feel good.

I'm Christian because I find it to be the most reasonable conclusion based on the evidence. This thread isn't specifically about that evidence, so I won't go into that, but I've done my best to demonstrate this evidence on a variety of occasions... heck, i think the first thread I really got involved with on CC was Jay's "logic dictates" thread, in which I endeavored to prove the fact that the universe has a beginning based on the second law of thermodynamics.

thats a fair point....though to a respect i dont know if thats the necessary assumption, or was just a consequence of the thread taking the direction that it did.

Neoteny · Post by **Neoteny** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:24 am

OnlyAmbrose wrote:I think the inherent flaw in the premise of this thread is that the EVERYONE, both the atheists and the theists, seem to be taking it for granted that Christians (or theists in general) believe in God because it gives them hope, or because it makes them feel good.

I'm Christian because I find it to be the most reasonable conclusion based on the evidence. This thread isn't specifically about that evidence, so I won't go into that, but I've done my best to demonstrate this evidence on a variety of occasions... heck, i think the first thread I really got involved with on CC was Jay's "logic dictates" thread, in which I endeavored to prove the fact that the universe has a beginning based on the second law of thermodynamics.

I think hope sprung up on page five, but I don't think it has completely dominated the thread. Before that it was faith, I believe. By the way, I disagree with you on the point of naming the eternal god. It's a misleading nomenclature that really serves no purpose.

LYR · Post by **LYR** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:31 am

Huh, so i guess I did contribute to the conversation

OnlyAmbrose · Post by **OnlyAmbrose** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:34 am

Neoteny wrote:
OnlyAmbrose wrote:I think the inherent flaw in the premise of this thread is that the EVERYONE, both the atheists and the theists, seem to be taking it for granted that Christians (or theists in general) believe in God because it gives them hope, or because it makes them feel good.

I'm Christian because I find it to be the most reasonable conclusion based on the evidence. This thread isn't specifically about that evidence, so I won't go into that, but I've done my best to demonstrate this evidence on a variety of occasions... heck, i think the first thread I really got involved with on CC was Jay's "logic dictates" thread, in which I endeavored to prove the fact that the universe has a beginning based on the second law of thermodynamics.

I think hope sprung up on page five, but I don't think it has completely dominated the thread. Before that it was faith, I believe. By the way, I disagree with you on the point of naming the eternal god. It's a misleading nomenclature that really serves no purpose.

Whatever, the point which i've made in several threads (and I've yet to see it rebutted) is that both atheists and theists believe in something beyond the laws of nature. This despite the fact that many atheists claim to be "naturalists."