Conquer Club

Nobunaga wrote:... Collectivism vs Individualism is the argument. No "Absolutes" considered.

...

Gillipig wrote:

Snorri1234 wrote:The "capitalism without limits" crowd are as stupid and unaware of human behaviour as communists. The do exactly the same thing as communists, that is; they ignore any proof that their system is retarded simply because the idea is so awesome. I challenge any "capitalism wins everything"-people to a debate.

It will be fun.

Unsupervised Capitalism is basically survival of the fittest, a lot of countries have had that as a role model for their society, since Darwin came up with the term! (no I'm not putting any blame on him!), and none of them was very inviting to me!
Unsupervised capitalism will lead to a cruel world, supervised capitalism will lead to a harmonic world!

jonesthecurl wrote:Most countries have a mixed economy.
The question is, what should the state regulate/actually do, and what should be left mainly to "market forces".?
I think (prove me wrong, I'm sure someone will) that the modern state has a duty to protect its citizens from crime, from foreign aggression, and a duty to ensure that its citizens are adequately educated.
Anyone want to remove anything from that list?
Anyone think of any other non-controversial additions?

Rocketry wrote:Gordon Brown and I find "Third Way Economics" agreeable.

Rocket.

captain.crazy wrote:Individualism sparks creativity, and a far more beautiful world. In a collective society, you are simply a cog, and indispensable.

Neoteny wrote:

captain.crazy wrote:Individualism sparks creativity, and a far more beautiful world. In a collective society, you are simply a cog, and indispensable.

Beautiful for the more creative, and f*ck the less fortunate?

joecoolfrog wrote:I spent a very pleasant few weeks in Cuba a while back , nice people but a great deal of poverty and the food was pretty grim Pretty hard to say if life under Castro is better than it was under Batista , excellent medical care and education these days but for the average person probably less freedom. What I do know is that Havana is a wonderfully laid back city and does not suffer from the drug and gang related violence found in Miami, money isn't everything !

ben79 wrote:

joecoolfrog wrote:I spent a very pleasant few weeks in Cuba a while back , nice people but a great deal of poverty and the food was pretty grim Pretty hard to say if life under Castro is better than it was under Batista , excellent medical care and education these days but for the average person probably less freedom. What I do know is that Havana is a wonderfully laid back city and does not suffer from the drug and gang related violence found in Miami, money isn't everything !

you're right about the medical and education system there, we have a good one i canada but our doctors leave canada to go work in the U.S.A., because they get more money, and drug dealers just can't take the chance to sell drug there ( end up in jail for the rest of the life ). The best system would be one where everything that comes from the country ground ( sorry for poor english ) would be own by the governement ( as in communism but not exactly ) here in Québec all the electricity company his only one and it's own by the governement ( cheapest electricity in the world ( even with -40 degrees celcius in the winter ) ). Mines, forest, electricity, water, all of that should be property of the governement ( and by governement i mean democracy elected governement ) so that means good jobs for the people.and all the money they make should invested in the country

captain.crazy wrote:

ben79 wrote:

joecoolfrog wrote:I spent a very pleasant few weeks in Cuba a while back , nice people but a great deal of poverty and the food was pretty grim Pretty hard to say if life under Castro is better than it was under Batista , excellent medical care and education these days but for the average person probably less freedom. What I do know is that Havana is a wonderfully laid back city and does not suffer from the drug and gang related violence found in Miami, money isn't everything !

you're right about the medical and education system there, we have a good one i canada but our doctors leave canada to go work in the U.S.A., because they get more money, and drug dealers just can't take the chance to sell drug there ( end up in jail for the rest of the life ). The best system would be one where everything that comes from the country ground ( sorry for poor english ) would be own by the governement ( as in communism but not exactly ) here in Québec all the electricity company his only one and it's own by the governement ( cheapest electricity in the world ( even with -40 degrees celcius in the winter ) ). Mines, forest, electricity, water, all of that should be property of the governement ( and by governement i mean democracy elected governement ) so that means good jobs for the people.and all the money they make should invested in the country

What are your taxes like though? how much of your pay check goes to the government?

ben79 wrote:

captain.crazy wrote:

ben79 wrote:

joecoolfrog wrote:I spent a very pleasant few weeks in Cuba a while back , nice people but a great deal of poverty and the food was pretty grim Pretty hard to say if life under Castro is better than it was under Batista , excellent medical care and education these days but for the average person probably less freedom. What I do know is that Havana is a wonderfully laid back city and does not suffer from the drug and gang related violence found in Miami, money isn't everything !

you're right about the medical and education system there, we have a good one i canada but our doctors leave canada to go work in the U.S.A., because they get more money, and drug dealers just can't take the chance to sell drug there ( end up in jail for the rest of the life ). The best system would be one where everything that comes from the country ground ( sorry for poor english ) would be own by the governement ( as in communism but not exactly ) here in Québec all the electricity company his only one and it's own by the governement ( cheapest electricity in the world ( even with -40 degrees celcius in the winter ) ). Mines, forest, electricity, water, all of that should be property of the governement ( and by governement i mean democracy elected governement ) so that means good jobs for the people.and all the money they make should invested in the country

What are your taxes like though? how much of your pay check goes to the government?

in Québec i won last year 25000 i payed 2400 provincial taxes and 1500 federal taxes at the end of the year i had a refund by both governement of 800 so it brings me at 4600 that i pay at governement. and when you buy things you have 2 more taxes one of 5% & another of 7%
but medical care is free, drugs are free, if you don't have a job you receive 550$/month & sometimes a low price appartement, cheapest electricity in the world ... so not that bad !

captain.crazy wrote:Face it, You can make a socialist society, and after a few generations of mediocrity, when your education system is so norm referenced that the average grade is little more than a D- by today's standard and your next crop of "socialist political genius leaders" are operating at such a borderline comatose brain activity level that their purpose in life will allude them, only then will you all wish that you had real competitive system that offered a real contrast to the post WWII Russian like society, the Socialist Republic of Earth.

captain.crazy wrote:

Neoteny wrote:

captain.crazy wrote:Individualism sparks creativity, and a far more beautiful world. In a collective society, you are simply a cog, and indispensable.

Beautiful for the more creative, and f*ck the less fortunate?

You make conservative capitalists out to be heartless. In fact, they are more charitable with the money that they earn than are liberals, at least, that has been my experience.

Face it, You can make a socialist society, and after a few generations of mediocrity, when your education system is so norm referenced that the average grade is little more than a D- by today's standard and your next crop of "socialist political genius leaders" are operating at such a borderline comatose brain activity level that their purpose in life will allude them, only then will you all wish that you had real competitive system that offered a real contrast to the post WWII Russian like society, the Socialist Republic of Earth.

Hell, look at how you mindless and lazy underachievers are drooling at the mouth for a socialist world order. All you can do is lie to yourselves and suggest that your life is anyone's fault but your own. I mean, seriously, you take care of you. I will take care of me. You don't burden me with you and I will return the favor. If you need it, I will help you out, but figure your life out for your self, it is, after all, yours. If you hate it so much, move to Cuba. I hear that their socialist republic is real nice.

You have all been brainwashed by the beast! He wants you to hate freedom as much as he wants you to believe that he does not exist. Freedom = responsibility. You don't get one without the other. All you end up with is some Ray Bradbury storyline with Orwellian consequences.

flashleg8 wrote: We merely have to look at USSR which from a semi-feudalist base level in 50 years managed to put the first man in space! .

Bovver boy wrote:

flashleg8 wrote: We merely have to look at USSR which from a semi-feudalist base level in 50 years managed to put the first man in space! .

And 1 harvested spud per annum for every 38 peasents!

Seriously though, most european nations at that time were feudal to an extent - the example you give is extremely poor at best.

flashleg8 wrote:

Bovver boy wrote:

flashleg8 wrote: We merely have to look at USSR which from a semi-feudalist base level in 50 years managed to put the first man in space! .

And 1 harvested spud per annum for every 38 peasents!

Seriously though, most european nations at that time were feudal to an extent - the example you give is extremely poor at best.

???! Britain, France, Germany, Spain, Holland, Belgium, Austro-Hungary, Sweden etc. etc. These were among the most power nations on earth. Super powers with vast colonial empires. The epitome of industrial capitalist nations.

And as for your ridiculous assertion of the food production just take a look at what the rapid industrialisation and modernisation of agriculture achieved.

captain.crazy wrote:These were all monarchy's in their hayday.

captain.crazy wrote:They were totalitarian countries when they were like this, much like the United States is now, and is more becoming.

captain.crazy wrote:Socialist regimes fail, there is no question.

flashleg8 wrote:

captain.crazy wrote:These were all monarchy's in their hayday.

A King or Queen doesn't mean the country is feudal? I am using the term in the Marxist sense. These countries shook off feudalism in the 17th and 18th centuries (if not before).

But it does mean that it is totalitarian.

captain.crazy wrote:They were totalitarian countries when they were like this, much like the United States is now, and is more becoming.

Totalitarian? Again this does not equal feudalist. These countries were most definitely capitalist. They invented capitalism an exported it across the globe.

Bullocks! They were not free market societies. They were not republics!

captain.crazy wrote:Socialist regimes fail, there is no question.

Capitalism fails. Constantly and inevitably. This leads to war, famine, shortages and recession. Boom and bust. Always, increasingly worse and worse until the system will implode. Either back to feudalism or onward to communism. There can be no stability.

Booms and busts are good, believe it or not, but Kanzian economics cause them to be extreme. This is when Government gets its hands in the business sector and tweaks the system till it does what they want it to do. That always messes things up from the natural order of things.

Your system is built on a pyramid of the oppressed. 2% of people own 50% of the wealth. 50% of the people own 1% of the wealth. This cannot go on. If your life seems so good then I suggest you look at how many millions of people you stand on to achieve it.

And your system leaves 0% of the people with 0% of the wealth. There is no wealth, or diversity. You suggest that is a good thing, but leave out the fact that failure for this kind of system means that all the eggs are in one basket. When it fails, its bad!

captain.crazy wrote:

flashleg8 wrote:
Totalitarian? Again this does not equal feudalist. These countries were most definitely capitalist. They invented capitalism an exported it across the globe.

Bullocks! They were not free market societies. They were not republics!