Gunman kills 10 in Alabama

[joecoolfrog]

Was his right to own a gun worth the death of 10 people including a one year old child,what about their right to live ?

[pimpdave]

Don't be so reasonable and considered.

The NRA is best encapsulated by this immortal character of gun ownership and responsibility:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eo0OY8GOuc

[Pedronicus]

For a change, a european decides to up the ante and europe wins!

Fifteen people have been killed after a teenage gunman went on a rampage in south-west Germany, officials say.

Twelve of the dead were students and teachers at the Albertville secondary school in Winnenden, north of Stuttgart, police say.

The gunman, a 17-year-old former pupil, is also dead, but it is not clear whether he was shot or killed himself.

The teenager, who entered the school wearing black combat gear, died in a shoot-out 40km (25 miles) away.

[muy_thaiguy]

For a change, a european decides to up the ante and europe wins!

Fifteen people have been killed after a teenage gunman went on a rampage in south-west Germany, officials say.

Twelve of the dead were students and teachers at the Albertville secondary school in Winnenden, north of Stuttgart, police say.

The gunman, a 17-year-old former pupil, is also dead, but it is not clear whether he was shot or killed himself.

The teenager, who entered the school wearing black combat gear, died in a shoot-out 40km (25 miles) away.

I was just about to point this one out.

[GabonX]

Was his right to own a gun worth the death of 10 people including a one year old child,what about their right to live ?

Yes, our rights our worth human lives. There are those of us who are willing to fight, kill, and die for them.

On another note, why does these people's right to live outweigh those who will be killed by terrorists who are recklessly released from Guantanamo? If you advocate violating people's rights in order to protect the public than it's quite hypocritical to criticize any of the conduct there.

For a change, a european decides to up the ante and europe wins!

Fifteen people have been killed after a teenage gunman went on a rampage in south-west Germany, officials say.

Twelve of the dead were students and teachers at the Albertville secondary school in Winnenden, north of Stuttgart, police say.

The gunman, a 17-year-old former pupil, is also dead, but it is not clear whether he was shot or killed himself.

The teenager, who entered the school wearing black combat gear, died in a shoot-out 40km (25 miles) away.

The fact that this happened in Germany demonstrates the abismal and universal failure of gun control laws. Those who are uneducated about fire arms don't seem to realize that gun control laws favor criminals as they become the only class of armed people in such societies and that guns can be made with great ease relatively anywhere. It's also relevant that gun violence has increased in the United Kingdom since the 97 ban and that every state that has adpoted right to carry laws has seen a drop in violent crime.

Both of these cases are indicative of the fact that there are not enough responsible armed people in society. Had any of the victims in Alabama possessed a fire arm they would have been able to stop the shooter in his tracks. Therefore every adult person who was killed bears partial responsibility for the death of each and every person who was slain after themself as they were irresponisble in not arming themselves prior to the event.

Bearing arms is not just a right, it's a responsibility.

[AAFitz]

Was his right to own a gun worth the death of 10 people including a one year old child,what about their right to live ?

Dont be silly! If there were no guns, he would have just used a bow and arrow, or a knife.

They are just as effective according to some gun advocates. Of course, this does bring into question why we need them at all doesn't it?

[GabonX]

Was his right to own a gun worth the death of 10 people including a one year old child,what about their right to live ?

Dont be silly! If there were no guns, he would have just used a bow and arrow, or a knife.

They are just as effective according to some gun advocates. Of course, this does bring into question why we need them at all doesn't it?

Oh come on, be a little more creative. I'll help you out, here's one of the many options that exists even without traditional fire arms..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nc3vcXp_ ... re=related

Besides, even if you could take every gun that everyone owns away they would easily be replaced by people who know how to make them. Fire arm trade would become major organized crime and the weapons and ammunition would be more prone to accident. Only criminals would be armed.

Anyone who thinks the war on guns would be any more successful than the war on drugs is naive.

[GabonX]

A man who converted replica submachine guns into lethal weapons that were later linked to some of Britain's most notorious murders was convicted of a string of firearms offences today.

Grant Wilkinson paid £55,000 in cash for 90 blank-firing Mac-10 guns, telling the dealer they would be used on the set of a new James Bond film.

But he was operating a gun factory from two garden sheds near Reading, Berkshire "on a commercial scale" unprecedented in Britain, said police.

Once converted to fire live rounds, Wilkinson sold them to members of London's criminal underworld for up to £2,500 each.

One weapon he converted was linked to the murder of Pc Sharon Beshenivsky, who was shot at the scene of a robbery in Bradford in 2005. Gangsters used another to kill 15-year-old Michael Dosunmu in Peckham, south London, who was shot in his bed after being mistaken for his brother.

Wilkinson, 34, of no fixed abode, was convicted by a jury at Reading crown court today.

His co-defendant Gary Lewis, 38, of Bourne End, Buckinghamshire, was cleared of all charges. Lewis had told the court he was merely Wilkinson's "odd job man" and was ignorant of the gun racket.

Police said guns converted by Wilkinson were linked to 52 of the 59 Mac-related incidents in the UK since 2003, including nine murders. "In 2004 we started having shootings with Mac-10s, whereas we had not had them before. There was a sea change," said Detective Chief Superintendent Gary Richardson, of Scotland Yard's Trident gun crime unit.

Denis Burke, of the Crown Prosecution Service's complex case unit, said: "Wilkinson established a firearms factory in a small suburb of Reading that was able to meet the demand nationally of the criminal fraternity. The firearms have since been used in all of our big cities, especially London."

Police have recovered 50 of the guns and today offered a reward of up to £10,000 for information leading to the recovery of the 40 that remain unaccounted for, or the arrest of anyone involved in incidents related to them.

For three years, Wilkinson ran a sophisticated gun conversion operation from two tatty sheds in Three Mile Cross behind a derelict house called the Briars, which he rented out.

One shed was a workshop and the other a sound-proofed testing house with a firing range. Police found costly industrial equipment used to smelt and cut metals and 27,700 spent cartridges that could be converted back into live ammunition. The factory was discovered by one of Wilkinson's tenants.

Calling himself Grant Wilson, Wilkinson had bought the blank-firing guns from Guy Savage of Sabre Defence Industries, a registered gun dealer in Northolt, west London, who had previously supplied Bond films. His "desperately disorganised" behaviour aroused such suspicion that Savage secretly photographed him on his mobile phone, but police were unable to identify him.

In his defence, Wilkinson said he was working for someone else, a man called Kevin Danaher, who was stabbed to death by an associate in May 2006.

First produced in 1970, Mac-10s are US military weapons designed for close combat. They are popular in gangland circles for their "bling" value and high firing rate. Their low accuracy has earned them the nickname "spray and pray". Even trained firearms officers have struggled to control them.

"These are attractive items for those connected to organised criminal networks. If you have one of these readily available, you will be targeted by other criminals who want to take it off you," said Richardson.

"One of the integral problems with these weapons is they do not necessarily hit your intended target. They also have difficulty stopping and starting them. They go off and they are difficult to keep in single fire."

Claudia Webbe, who chairs the Trident independent advisory group, said: "We can see very clearly the devastating impact of this heinous crime, particularly and disproportionately, although not exclusively, on black communities.

"Here we have an armoury factory in the suburbs of Berkshire creating deadly weapons that are clearly ending up in the hands of 17-, 18-, 19-year-olds, in inner city urban London."

Wilkinson was convicted of seven offences: conspiracy to convert imitation firearms; conspiracy to sell or transfer firearms; conspiracy to sell or transfer ammunition; two counts of possession of firearms with intent to endanger life; and two counts of possession of ammunition with intent to endanger life. He will be sentenced tomorrow.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/aug/27/ukguns.ukcrime?gusrc=

[Pedronicus]

RECENT US SHOOTINGS
Dec 2008: A gunman dressed as Santa Claus kills nine people and himself on Christmas Eve in LA
Sept 2008: Six people die in a series of shootings in the north-west of Washington state
June 2008: A worker at a plastics plant in Kentucky kills five people and wounds one other before killing himself
Feb 2008: Five people die and 18 are wounded after a man opens fire at Northern Illinois University
Dec 2007: A gunman kills eight people and wounds five at a shopping mall in Omaha, Nebraska, before killing himself
Apr 2007: 32 people and the gunman die at the Virginia Tech campus

HOW THEY COMPARE

Firearm-related deaths (in 2000)

United States: 30,419 (11.3 per 100,000)

England and Wales: 159 (0.3 per 100,000)

Germany: 1,201 (1.5 per 100 000)

France: 2,964 (5 per 100,000)

Gun ownership per 100 inhabitants

United States: 83-96

European Union: 17.4

United Kingdom: 10

[theusual1]

If you take guns away it will be a similar situation to when prohibition was in America. There would still be plenty of guns around and organized crime will make even more money. The government does not have the power to manage to get rid of guns. It would be ironic if the government uses guns to prevent people from using guns. Therefore, what would the police use?

In the UK guns are banned and knife crime is much worse.

[MeDeFe]

He should have had a gun.

Wait...

[GabonX]

The statistics you show don't capture the whole picture. Every state that has adopted right to carry laws has seen a drop in the murder rate.

Britain, like most countries which have restricted firearms, has seen an increase in the murder rate since the ban went into affect.

There is a near universal trend where every nation that bans guns sees an increase in murders while every state or nation which allows it's citizens carry fire arms sees a decrease. Australia is the only exception I've found to this trend but that's another story.

The United States has a largely open border where fire fights erupt between Americans and foriegn nationals.

The United States has a large number of inner city gangs, more so than the European nations.

Based on these facts the logical conclusion is that the high murder rate in the United States is not a result of lax gun laws but rather indicates that there are not ENOUGH guns in society held by responsible citizens.

[GabonX]

If you take guns away it will be a similar situation to when prohibition was in America. There would still be plenty of guns around and organized crime will make even more money. The government does not have the power to manage to get rid of guns.

True

It would be ironic if the government uses guns to prevent people from using guns.

Ironic or moronic? Or fascist?

In the UK guns are banned and knife crime is much worse.

This is a very relevant fact. Both knife and gun violence have increased in the UK since the handgun ban was enacted.

He should have had a gun.

Wait...

Everyone he shot should have. It was irresponsible for them not to carry one and they have a share in the responsibility of each person who was slain or injured after their own death. There is honor in being shot while trying to charge an assailant. There is only dishonor in being shot in the back while running.

[joecoolfrog]

Gabon is lying again

[Pedronicus]

In the UK guns are banned and knife crime is much worse.

This is a very relevant fact. Both knife and gun violence have increased in the UK since the handgun ban was enacted.

All violence has increased. the amount of guns in circulation has nothing to do with this general increase in violent acts.

[GabonX]

Gabon is lying again

Everything I've said in this thread is true. Can you dispute a single fact I've mentioned or are you just trolling?

In the UK guns are banned and knife crime is much worse.

This is a very relevant fact. Both knife and gun violence have increased in the UK since the handgun ban was enacted.

All violence has increased. the amount of guns in circulation has nothing to do with this general increase in violent acts.

When the criminal element takes notice that decent people are defenseless logic dictates that thier activities will increase. The public's lack of a means to defend themselves is the single greatest contributing factor to this increase in violence. It is the most obvious cause for the universal increase in violence in the United Kingdom.

[HapSmo19]

508 Chicago School Students Shot In 16 Months

Twenty-five Chicago Public School students have been murdered this year. As shocking as that number is, there is another figure that's very disturbing as well: the number of students who have been shot in a 16-month period is enough to fill an elementary school - 508 students, according to school officials. CBS station WBBM-TV in Chicago's Chief Correspondent Jay Levine asks why, and what is being done to stop it.

Think about it. By this time tomorrow, odds are at least one Chicago Public School student will have been shot. By this time next week, there'll be seven. It's a staggering, frightening, shameful statistic that judging from the reaction we got, those who could do something aren't anxious to talk about.

"No one really wants to address this but we need to call for a state of emergency," said Pastor Roosevelt Watkins.

Chicago Public School students are relatively safe until they leave school, but after that, the closer to home, stats show, the more dangerous it is.

We wanted to talk with Brian Samuels, the school official analyzing the data. He wasn't available.

An alternative to drugs, guns and violence is an after-school program at the Bethlehem Star Missionary Baptist Church where virtually every one of the kids have been touched by that violence.

"This place is a safe haven for them, and that's why they attend here on a regular basis," Pastor Watkins said.

When asked how many of the students know a friend or relative who has been shot - slowly, the hands go up. When five of seven children raise their hands, you know there's a problem.

"My uncle got shot right in front of our building, while we were playing basketball. I was kind of scared 'cause he was a family member, and I didn't want him to die," said 14-year-old Davell Jackson. "I was kind of frightened that I could have got shot too."

"My cousin, he was driving, and somebody shot at his car, and he flew out the window and he was killed," said 13-year-old Alvin Howard.

Not far from the church, on Friday night, an 18-year-old CPS graduate was shot and killed. It was just weeks after his 17-year-old brother was among three young men murdered by an alleged gunman just recently acquitted of murder - within view of a police blue light camera, which anonymous officers on the Internet claim are all too often being used to replace a shrinking force of street cops.

"It's like rarely do you see a police officer drive by," said 12-year-old Beverly Lambert.

WBBM-TV wanted to speak with Chicago Police Supt. Jody Weis about the startling statistics, but we were told by an aide that after leaving federal court Monday morning, he was too busy.

But it's not only a police problem.

"There's a fear in the neighborhood because the people fear retaliation," Pastor Watkins said. "We need to go back to the old school way where we had neighbors knowing each other, building neighborhood block clubs."

There's plenty of blame to go around - from neighbors' blind eyes to broken families to schools without truant officers to police manpower. Until everyone starts working together, joining forces instead of pointing fingers, the shooting will undoubtedly continue.

http://wcbstv.com/national/Chicago.Scho ... 55165.html

I'll bet money that none of them were shot by people who legally possessed the gun

[Timminz]

It is the most obvious cause for the universal increase in violence in the United Kingdom.

When the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem begins to look like a nail.

[GabonX]

508 Chicago School Students Shot In 16 Months

Twenty-five Chicago Public School students have been murdered this year. As shocking as that number is, there is another figure that's very disturbing as well: the number of students who have been shot in a 16-month period is enough to fill an elementary school - 508 students, according to school officials. CBS station WBBM-TV in Chicago's Chief Correspondent Jay Levine asks why, and what is being done to stop it.

Think about it. By this time tomorrow, odds are at least one Chicago Public School student will have been shot. By this time next week, there'll be seven. It's a staggering, frightening, shameful statistic that judging from the reaction we got, those who could do something aren't anxious to talk about.

"No one really wants to address this but we need to call for a state of emergency," said Pastor Roosevelt Watkins.

Chicago Public School students are relatively safe until they leave school, but after that, the closer to home, stats show, the more dangerous it is.

We wanted to talk with Brian Samuels, the school official analyzing the data. He wasn't available.

An alternative to drugs, guns and violence is an after-school program at the Bethlehem Star Missionary Baptist Church where virtually every one of the kids have been touched by that violence.

"This place is a safe haven for them, and that's why they attend here on a regular basis," Pastor Watkins said.

When asked how many of the students know a friend or relative who has been shot - slowly, the hands go up. When five of seven children raise their hands, you know there's a problem.

"My uncle got shot right in front of our building, while we were playing basketball. I was kind of scared 'cause he was a family member, and I didn't want him to die," said 14-year-old Davell Jackson. "I was kind of frightened that I could have got shot too."

"My cousin, he was driving, and somebody shot at his car, and he flew out the window and he was killed," said 13-year-old Alvin Howard.

Not far from the church, on Friday night, an 18-year-old CPS graduate was shot and killed. It was just weeks after his 17-year-old brother was among three young men murdered by an alleged gunman just recently acquitted of murder - within view of a police blue light camera, which anonymous officers on the Internet claim are all too often being used to replace a shrinking force of street cops.

"It's like rarely do you see a police officer drive by," said 12-year-old Beverly Lambert.

WBBM-TV wanted to speak with Chicago Police Supt. Jody Weis about the startling statistics, but we were told by an aide that after leaving federal court Monday morning, he was too busy.

But it's not only a police problem.

"There's a fear in the neighborhood because the people fear retaliation," Pastor Watkins said. "We need to go back to the old school way where we had neighbors knowing each other, building neighborhood block clubs."

There's plenty of blame to go around - from neighbors' blind eyes to broken families to schools without truant officers to police manpower. Until everyone starts working together, joining forces instead of pointing fingers, the shooting will undoubtedly continue.

http://wcbstv.com/national/Chicago.Scho ... 55165.html

I'll bet money that none of them were shot by people who legally possessed the gun

Given that there is a city wide gun ban in Chicago, in conratdiction to the Supreme Court's 2008 ruling, this is certainly the case. Another example of the universal failure and danger of gun "control."

It is the most obvious cause for the universal increase in violence in the United Kingdom.

When the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem begins to look like a nail.

If you take away people's guns they'll be left to defend themselves with hammers..except for the criminals, they'll still have guns.

There is a near universal increase in violence in countries which take away the populations right to keep and bear arms while there is an absolutely universal drop in violent crime in every US state which has recognized people's right to bear arms. All of the clever phrases in the world won't change that fact.

[Timminz]

All of the clever phrases in the world won't change that fact.

Sorry for not being more clear. My point was that when you're looking at one particular issue, and only that particular issue, it can be very easy to assume that all stats have to do with that issue. I'm not saying you're right or wrong, just that there are, more than likely, factors other than gun-ownership laws at play in the overall crime stats.

[snufkin]

Twelve of the dead were students and teachers at the Albertville secondary school in Winnenden, north of Stuttgart, police say.

There´s a very simple solution to problems like these - every child/student should have been required by law to carry a loaded unsecured gun to easily prevent things like this.

and everyone knows that it´s just as easy to kill 16 people with a kitchen knife - I do it all the time.

[GabonX]

All of the clever phrases in the world won't change that fact.

Sorry for not being more clear. My point was that when you're looking at one particular issue, and only that particular issue, it can be very easy to assume that all stats have to do with that issue. I'm not saying you're right or wrong, just that there are, more than likely, factors other than gun-ownership laws at play in the overall crime stats.

I see your point but there is a lot data which backs up what I'm saying. Virtually all data taken indicates that gun restrictions empower criminals and place the general population in danger. Once again, this is not one survey but rather a culmination of all data taken which leads me to believe this.

Twelve of the dead were students and teachers at the Albertville secondary school in Winnenden, north of Stuttgart, police say.

There´s a very simple solution to problems like these - every child/student should have been required by law to carry a loaded unsecured gun to easily prevent things like this.

Carrying a weapon is a choice however if you choose not to you are at the mercy of everyone who did not make the same decision as you. What you don't have a right to do is take away my rights for your own (false) sense of security.

and everyone knows that it´s just as easy to kill 16 people with a kitchen knife - I do it all the time.

Yes someone could kill 16 people with a kitchen knife depending on who it was he was going after but that's a moot point. People can be very creative when it comes to making weapons. In Iraq civillians have proven that the most powerful military in the world is not invulnerable to home made weapons. The anarchist cookbook which can be found via google describes a number of home made explosive devices which can be made at home and you're not acknowledging the fact that making a gun is a relatively simple procedure for anyone who has an elementary knowledge of metal work. ie just about everyone in every motorcycle gang in the United States...

If a person really wanted to go on a killing spree all they would need to do to get a weapon which is better than a conventional fire arm would be to take a trip to Toys R Us, Wall Mart, and a liquer store. If the person is under 18 their parent's liquer cabinet would do as well..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nc3vcXp_7O8

[Frigidus]

The United States has a largely open border where fire fights erupt between Americans and foriegn nationals.

Based on these facts the logical conclusion is that the high murder rate in the United States is not a result of lax gun laws but rather indicates that there are not ENOUGH guns in society held by responsible citizens.

Although there is apparently empirical evidence to support carrying laws (although admittedly all the statistics I read don't have sources), logic does not suggest that they would have an effect. Do murderers really say to themselves, "Gee, somebody might have a weapon with which they could fight back...I guess I'll just have to give up on crime." I could see an upturn in dead criminals, but a downturn in dead innocents? Not so much.

[Snorri1234]

All of the clever phrases in the world won't change that fact.

Sorry for not being more clear. My point was that when you're looking at one particular issue, and only that particular issue, it can be very easy to assume that all stats have to do with that issue. I'm not saying you're right or wrong, just that there are, more than likely, factors other than gun-ownership laws at play in the overall crime stats.

Like the increase in poor urban communities, the lack of respect policeofficers and other people with authority get which is actually a sign of a larger with society itself and has absolutely nothing to do with guns.

I mean, the fact that some parent beat up his kid's schoolteacher would not have improved if schoolteachers and parents all had guns. Crime has risen due to a lack of enforcement by the government and police and a social trend towards anti-authoritan behaviour. Which probably make eachother worse.

There is a near universal increase in violence in countries which take away the populations right to keep and bear arms while there is an absolutely universal drop in violent crime in every US state which has recognized people's right to bear arms.

Is because you tend to lock up people for quite some time. And give your cops more authority.

[Snorri1234]

Do murderers really say to themselves, "Gee, somebody might have a weapon with which they could fight back...I guess I'll just have to give up on crime."

Ofcourse, all people are completely rational and always make the best choices in any given situation and are never led by fear, prejudice or just plain ignorance of effects.