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it's about cards not conquest
Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:31 am
by Grifter
I used to think that winning was about building my armies and conquering territories. I have since learned that it is about being the first to eliminate another player, take his/her cards for the bonus and then eliminate the next player and so on. My latest attempt at this came close. I tried to eliminate a player who had 5 cards but the dice were not in my favour. Someone else beat me to it. Oh well next time.
Re: it's about cards not conquest
Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:33 am
by DomQuebec
You understood almost all. So your rank will increase a lot.
A lot of noobs played a lot of games and are still making the same crap moves, they will always stay noobs.
Re: it's about cards not conquest
Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:33 am
by The Neon Peon
You are talking about escalating games only.
The others are about building your armies.
Re: it's about cards not conquest
Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:48 am
by Aradhus
I know a lot of top players will disagree but escalating games are complete lotterys. Its just pure luck, which is why I slowly reduced the esc games I played, and then eventually stopped altogether. Recently I've joined a random couple. I played in three of the Br's, and just my bad luck I woke up each time a new br was announced and they were all Esc. It wasn't until they were over that I saw there had been flat rate BR's..
Esc games between only good high ranked players have a degree of skill involved(not nearly as much as they claim), the problem though is that all the skill in the world can't conquer bad dice, and the next luckbox to take their turn steals your kill and game. With flatrate, a round of crap dice and failed alimination attempt doesn't spell the end of the game, being a good player with a good strategy you can recover.
And of course no cards, has no cards. Which completely changes attacking and eliminating strategy..(or it should, of course some people just..gah)
Re: it's about cards not conquest
Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:50 am
by DomQuebec
You don't understand Aradhus. I score well in escalating, cause I know statistics very well. I'm able to deploy decently to increase my percentage of winning. A lot of noobs with the same position than me would have failed in my games won.
Re: it's about cards not conquest
Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:53 am
by The Neon Peon
Aradhus, if you think it is about luck you are not playing it right.
As DomQuebec said, you need to know statistics and know of how many troops you need for the kill. If you think, "I need some good dice to get this done" then you should not be doing it.
The numbers are so high that the luck factor is decreased like City Mogul... yes, people complain about luck on that map too, but half the time they are trying attacks which they should not be making anyways.
Re: it's about cards not conquest
Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:56 am
by Jeff Hardy
Aradhus wrote:I know a lot of top players will disagree
thats because because the top players know what theyre talking about
Re: it's about cards not conquest
Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:58 am
by Aradhus
The Neon Peon wrote:Aradhus, if you think it is about luck you are not playing it right.
As DomQuebec said, you need to know statistics and know of how many troops you need for the kill. If you think, "I need some good dice to get this done" then you should not be doing it.
The numbers are so high that the luck factor is decreased like City Mogul... yes, people complain about luck on that map too, but half the time they are trying attacks which they should not be making anyways.
Of course, I'm sure every single time you have
enough troops you don't lose even with bad dice huh?... I never said anything about needing good dice, I know how to play escalating. Most escalating games are won when somebody fails to kill.
Re: it's about cards not conquest
Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 12:03 pm
by The Neon Peon
Aradhus wrote:Of course, I'm sure every single time you have enough troops you don't lose even with bad dice huh?... I never said anything about needing good dice, I know how to play escalating. Most escalating games are won when somebody fails to kill.
Sorry, but that is wrong. Yes, dice have screwed me... but an equal time they have given me the game. Personally, I rarely see the dice give someone an escalating game. Bad dice are outside of probability. Therefore, because they are outside of probability they happen less often than regular dice.
Re: it's about cards not conquest
Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 12:04 pm
by DomQuebec
Hey noob? Stop talking about dice? We are talking about long run. On hundreds of games we score better than noobs like u, k?
That's the strategy. Moreover, I would add one hint. When u are close and sure of killing somebody for his cards, that's not always the best thing to do it right away.
That's a lot of strategy noobs like u don't understand.
Yep, I got bullshit dice often, but I can get in anyway.
Re: it's about cards not conquest
Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 12:07 pm
by The Neon Peon
DomQuebec wrote:Hey noob? Stop talking about dice? We are talking about long run. On hundreds of games we score better than noobs like u, k?
That's the strategy. Moreover, I would add one hint. When u are close and sure of killing somebody for his cards, that's not always the best thing to do it right away.
That's a lot of strategy noobs like u don't understand.
Yep, I got bullshit dice often, but I can get in anyway.
Was that really necessary?
Re: it's about cards not conquest
Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 12:08 pm
by Aradhus
Aradhus wrote:Esc games between only good high ranked players have a degree of skill involved(not nearly as much as they claim
Re: it's about cards not conquest
Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 12:12 pm
by Aradhus
DomQuebec wrote:Hey noob? Stop talking about dice? We are talking about long run. On hundreds of games we score better than noobs like u, k?
That's the strategy. Moreover, I would add one hint. When u are close and sure of killing somebody for his cards, that's not always the best thing to do it right away.
That's a lot of strategy noobs like u don't understand.
Yep, I got bullshit dice often, but I can get in anyway.
3555 games compared to my 400? Yes in the long run, imbecile, you score better....
If I hadn't stopped playing, and deadbeated out of about 30 games some time ago, I would have more points than you, noob, k.
Re: it's about cards not conquest
Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 1:13 pm
by FarangDemon
Aradhus wrote:DomQuebec wrote:Hey noob? Stop talking about dice? We are talking about long run. On hundreds of games we score better than noobs like u, k?
That's the strategy. Moreover, I would add one hint. When u are close and sure of killing somebody for his cards, that's not always the best thing to do it right away.
That's a lot of strategy noobs like u don't understand.
Yep, I got bullshit dice often, but I can get in anyway.
3555 games compared to my 400? Yes in the long run, imbecile, you score better....
If I hadn't stopped playing, and deadbeated out of about 30 games some time ago, I would have more points than you, noob, k.
But what DomQuebec is saying is that if you understand how to calculate probability, you can get a high score in just 400 games.
here is one tip: if you have 3 prongs to attack in order to eliminate somebody, you need to deploy forces such that the product of the probabilities of each attack prong individually succeeding is maximized. Since the max value of xy for x+y=1 is x=1/2, y=1/2, you generally maximize the probability of overall success by deploying so that the likelihood of each attack succeeding is about the same.
For example, if you have two attacks you need to win in order to kill a dude:
The probability of winning two attacks that each win at 80% of the time is 80% * 80% = 64%.
The probability of winning one attack at 70% and the other at 90% is 70% * 90% = 63%
Re: it's about cards not conquest
Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 1:19 pm
by DomQuebec
Exactly, and that's not all. I made a program on Excel who compute probabilities. So that's accurate and my moves are perfect. Only one thing can kill me when I try, that's dice, but I don't realy take care, since I know what are the exact probabilities, so I'm never angry against me, each of my moves are always perfects.
Noobs like Aradhus are very far from perfection, since they think escalating is luck... ROFL, pathetic!
Re: it's about cards not conquest
Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 1:32 pm
by Aradhus
Farang, what does your post have to do with what I said about the dice?
Your post wasn't a 'tip', there was nothing insightful in it at all. That's not strategy, its called common sense.
Noobs like Domquebec should learn how to read, otherwise he'll continue to make erroneous clueless comments.
Re: it's about cards not conquest
Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 3:38 pm
by Timminz
DomQuebec wrote:Noobs like Aradhus are very far from perfection, since they think escalating is luck... ROFL, pathetic!
Go easy on the poor fool. At least he's entertaining. No one else on these forums has given me a good belly-laugh as often as he has lately.
Re: it's about cards not conquest
Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 3:46 pm
by ManBungalow
Jeff Hardy wrote:Aradhus wrote:I know a lot of top players will disagree
thats because because the top players know what theyre talking about
That, or they farm...
Re: it's about cards not conquest
Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 3:54 pm
by The Neon Peon
ManBungalow wrote:Jeff Hardy wrote:Aradhus wrote:I know a lot of top players will disagree
thats because because the top players know what theyre talking about
That, or they farm...
There is a difference between "the top players" and "the top players on the scoreboard"
Re: it's about cards not conquest
Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 4:06 pm
by Zemljanin
DomQuebec wrote:Exactly, and that's not all. I made a program on Excel who compute probabilities. So that's accurate and my moves are perfect. Only one thing can kill me when I try, that's dice, but I don't realy take care, since I know what are the exact probabilities, so I'm never angry against me, each of my moves are always perfects.
Noobs like Aradhus are very far from perfection, since they think escalating is luck... ROFL, pathetic!
Hm, let me review facts and "facts" together:
a) There is MUCH more than luck in escalating games (hypothesis)
b) You play perfectly (hypothesis)
c) You've played more than 3500 games (fact)
d) You're only a low middle-ranker (fact)
I have a feeling that something is missing...
Re: it's about cards not conquest
Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 4:26 pm
by DomQuebec
I played a lot of feudal map games with no cards or flat rate recently.
I was brigadier few months ago when I played escalating more often, that's what was missing.
Re: it's about cards not conquest
Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 7:05 pm
by Zemljanin
DomQuebec wrote:I played a lot of feudal map games with no cards or flat rate recently.
I was brigadier few months ago when I played escalating more often, that's what was missing.
OK. Accepted.
Re: it's about cards not conquest
Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 7:13 pm
by Aradhus
Funny Dom, when I played you in that escalating game the other day your perfect moves didn't reward you with the win that you seemingly claim to recieve every time. The dice didn't fail you, so what happened? Oh yeah, you suck, your clueless tactic of sitting in one spot and doing nothing doesn't work in a public game when there are several noobs who do exactly the opposite.
Re: it's about cards not conquest
Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 10:11 pm
by FarangDemon
Aradhus wrote:Funny Dom, when I played you in that escalating game the other day your perfect moves didn't reward you with the win that you seemingly claim to recieve every time. The dice didn't fail you, so what happened? Oh yeah, you suck, your clueless tactic of sitting in one spot and doing nothing doesn't work in a public game when there are several noobs who do exactly the opposite.
I think the point he was trying to make is that while an individual game is highly dependent on the drop, dice, arbitrariness of the outcome of players attacks, when you play a lot of them, your strategy will tend to award you with more wins than losses, should it be better than the strategy of your opponents.
So if you are looking at long term point loss/gain instead of just the three games you recently lost and are complaining about, then there is no reason to complain about the "luck" in this game type. The reason I gave you the math tip was because I thought you didn't understand this.
aradhus wrote:the problem though is that all the skill in the world can't conquer bad dice
Of course, I'm sure every single time you have enough troops you don't lose even with bad dice huh?
Nobody would make these statements otherwise.
Re: it's about cards not conquest
Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 10:31 pm
by FabledIntegral
Aradhus wrote:I know a lot of top players will disagree but escalating games are complete lotterys. Its just pure luck, which is why I slowly reduced the esc games I played, and then eventually stopped altogether. Recently I've joined a random couple. I played in three of the Br's, and just my bad luck I woke up each time a new br was announced and they were all Esc. It wasn't until they were over that I saw there had been flat rate BR's..
Esc games between only good high ranked players have a degree of skill involved(not nearly as much as they claim), the problem though is that all the skill in the world can't conquer bad dice, and the next luckbox to take their turn steals your kill and game. With flatrate, a round of crap dice and failed alimination attempt doesn't spell the end of the game, being a good player with a good strategy you can recover.
And of course no cards, has no cards. Which completely changes attacking and eliminating strategy..(or it should, of course some people just..gah)
Right....
Which is why you calculate the odds before going on and attempting such a kill...
you have on the board 11 v 7, 11 v 7, 12 v 9 to go in for a kill. Do you go for it?
First, of course we subtract the one army that has to remain, thus it's 10 attacking vs 7, etc.
If you want to take a 34% shot - go for it. But if you lose it and blame bad dice, that's your own ignorance. And that's only if no one else is in the way - you have to block other's paths from getting kills, etc. Then you have to factor in teh chance "will someone else go for the kill? They have a 72% chance of getting the kill if they have a set, which with 4 cards is 78%... chances are he has a set and then has a 72% run at it, and will likely sweep the game, so either I should block and reduce his chance, fort my armies so someone else can block, or take the risk with a 34% shot which, with 6 players, still are good odds if I can win around 1/3 of hte games (assuming that kill guarantees a sweep).
None of these factors are considered in flat rate/no cards, which is a game of "let's wait until the opponents f*ck up." And that's not all the strategy, what I mentioned was just above the basics (yet still not basic).