SFR Yugoslavia [Quenched]

[natty dread]

Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia

Stampage


XML:


XML:
download/file.php?id=496


Latest images:
Large:
[bigimg]http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/2895/yugo20.png[/bigimg]

Small:
[bigimg]http://img542.imageshack.us/img542/8122/yugo20s.png[/bigimg]


[spoiler=older versions]Large:
http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/2895/yugo20.png
Small:
http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/8122/yugo20s.png


v19
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/8849/yugo19.png
http://img830.imageshack.us/img830/7382/yugo19s.png

v18.2
http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/2576/yugo18.png
http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/5937/yugo18s.png


v18.1

http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/2576/yugo18.png
http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/5937/yugo18s.png

v18

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/2576/yugo18.png
http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/5937/yugo18s.png

v16.2
http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/8228/yugo16.png
http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/5685/yugo16s.png
v16.1
http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/8228/yugo16.png
http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/5685/yugo16s.png
v16 http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/8228/yugo16.png
v15 http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/6209/yugo15.png
v14 http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/3817/yugo14.png
v13.1 http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/7880/yugo13.png
v13 http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/7880/yugo13.png
v12.1 http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/1377/yugo12.png
v12 http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/1377/yugo12.png
v11 http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/215/yugo11.png
v10.1 http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/6250/yugo10.png
v10 http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/6250/yugo10.png
v9 http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/1559/yugo9.png
v8 http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/1559/yugo9.png
v7 http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/3117/yugo7a.png
v6 http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/962/yugo6.png
v5a http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/9230/yugo5.png
v5 http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/9230/yugo5.png
v4 http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/6688/yugo4.png
v3: http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/5396/yugo3.png
v2: http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/9783/yugo2.png
v1: http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/5225/yugo1.png[/spoiler]

[spoiler=xml test results][/spoiler]


Gameplay:

43 territories, of which 8 capitals, 4 ports, 1 sea territory

Starting territories:

All territories start normal except South Kosovo (neutral 2) and capitals, which are starting positions with 4 troops; each player gets 1 capital and leftover capitals start as neutral 3:s.

South Kosovo, Niksic and Slovenian Littoral start as neutral 2.

2-3 player games start with 11 territories each (10 + 1 capital)
4 player games start with 9 each (8 + 1 capital)
5 player games start with 7 each (6 + 1 capital)
6 player games start with 6 each (5 + 1 capital)
7 player games start with 5 each (4 + 1 capital)
8 player games start with 5 each (4 + 1 capital)

Collection bonuses:

All ports connect to Adriatic Sea.
Holding all ports + Adriatic sea gives +3.

Capitals give:
+2 for 2
+3 for 4
+4 for 6
+6 for 8

Ports:

Istria
Split-Dalmatia
Dubrovnik
Titograd

Capitals:

Ljubljana
Zagreb
Novi Sad
Sarajevo
Belgrad
Pristina
Skopje
Titograd is both a capital and a port.

Bonus areas:

Slovenia +2 (3 territories, 3 borders)
Croatia +8 (10 territories, 7 borders)
Bosnia-Herzegovina +6 (7 territories, 5 borders)
Serbia +5 (8 territories, 5 borders)
Vojvodina +3 (4 territories, 3 borders)
Montenegro +2 (3 territories, 2 borders)
Kosovo +1 (2 territories, 2 borders)
Macedonia +2 (5 territories, 2 borders)

[Dukasaur]

It's definitely a good idea! Yugoslavia and all its divisions is fascinating, historically and strategically speaking.

Only thing you have to decide now: are you going to make it fairly wide-open, or put in all the mountains and have it very bottle-necky?

[natty dread]

Definitely add mountains. I just haven't decided on the exact locations (there are so damn many mountains to choose from!)

Anyway, Croatia at least needs some border reduction, maybe Bosnia too...

[natty dread]

I heard direct sea routes are out of vogue.

[bigimg]http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/9783/yugo2.png[/bigimg]

[AndyDufresne]

The map doesn't immediately grab me, probably due to the generic theme currently (I.E. not the Yugoslavia in War, not the Break-up of Yugoslavia, etc), but it looks like a map I would give some play.

I think the aesthetic of the wall is worth pursuing more.


--Andy

[natty dread]

Some gameplay musings:

[bigimg]http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/9783/yugo2.png[/bigimg]

[koontz1973]

The style of the map is great. I love that part of it and hope you do not have to or want to change it to much.

Do you have a time period for it? as that might give you additional game play elements.

With the game play musings, why does Belgrade one way assault all other capitals. Does this not give it a huge advantage to the player that controls it?

[natty dread]

Yes, that's sort of the point. It will start neutral. Belgrade was the federal capital of Yugoslavia so I figured it should have some advantage that's better than all the other capitals.

No specific time period, except as defined by the title of the map... the SFRY existed from after WWII to early 90:s.

[benga]

Like the Belgrade idea.

Put all names in one language, you have a mix now.

Also you can put rivers as borders, as they are borders in real life.

[natty dread]

Here are the impassables I was planning on using - white = mountains, blue = rivers:

[bigimg]http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/4638/yugo2i.png[/bigimg]

[Nola_Lifer]

No Tito?

[Victor Sullivan]

I like it, Yugoslavia could use some love. I must say I liked the more colorful version you posted in HCS more

I understand the bonus area divisions, but Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, and Serbia (especially Croatia) are by no means feasible to obtain and hold until endgame. I suppose you could just chalk it up to the preset political/ethnical boundaries or the geography, but nonetheless I'm not sure how well this map will play, with the peripheral small bonus areas and the large, unobtainable ones in between. As for the gameplay elements you've included, I like the Adriatic Sea concept, but am not fond of the capitals. The auto-deploys only make the smaller bonus areas only easier to hold (since their capitals are all within a bordering territory) and worth more. Belgrade... It's a neat idea with it assaulting all the capitals, but I have a hard time seeing first, the reasoning behind it (aside from just a nice gameplay addition), and second, seeing it be too effective. As already stated, all the capitals in the smaller bonus areas are within a border territory, so they will be well protected, therefore, it can't really be used as a tool to break bonuses, merely a way to skip over a few territories to Zagreb or Sarajevo, the only two possible capitals to attack mid-game.

Something gameplay-wise needs to be changed, as the bonus area boundaries really aren't working with standard gameplay. One solution, I think, would be to use the "+X per Y territories in one bonus area" approach. In this way, you could even keep the capitals and such (the auto-deploys now being worth just a tad more, yet not being too unfair, given the smaller bonus areas would be worth less, and wouldn't necessarily need hefty protection) and it would increase the value of the formerly near-worthless middle bonus areas, Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, and Serbia. Starting positions and the bonus per territory in each bonus area could easily (more or less) be set to balance things out: +1 per 2 for Slovenia, Vojvodina, Montenegro, Kosovo, and Macedonia, +1 per 3 for Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, and Serbia. You could even do +1 per 2 in all bonus regions, but it would take a little more work with the starting positions.

Small nitpick: If you prefer to keep the gameplay as is, I'd suggest for Macedonia, either removing the mountains between Polog and West Kosovo and up it to +3, or merge two territories and keep the +2. If you decide to go the +X for Y route explained above, I think the mountains could still stand to be removed.

-Sully

P.S. I just realized what I suggested is strikingly similar to your and Helix's Korea map, lol.

[natty dread]

Yeah I'm not set on what I intend to do with the capitals. However, I'm planning on keeping the gameplay of this map pretty close to standard. I've been doing lots of maps with complex/experimental gameplay, and this is a change of pace, back to the roots sort of thing here.

[Victor Sullivan]

Yeah I'm not set on what I intend to do with the capitals. However, I'm planning on keeping the gameplay of this map pretty close to standard. I've been doing lots of maps with complex/experimental gameplay, and this is a change of pace, back to the roots sort of thing here.

Fair enough, but you really can't ignore the glaring issue of the bonus areas. Every game will have players retreating to the smaller bonus areas at the beginning... I really don't think it's conducive to good gameplay. Something has to be done. I'll ponder on this myself, as I hope you will, too.

-Sully

[natty dread]

Every game will have players retreating to the smaller bonus areas at the beginning...

That happens on every map. A map should have small & easy areas for quick bonuses in the early game, and larger, harder bonuses to expand for the mid-late game.

Also you can't consider the larger bonus areas alone. For example, with the planned impassables, Bosnia has 5 borders (not counting the capital) but if you also take Karlovac it reduces the borders to 4.

Serbia is very hard to hold on it's own, but if you also hold Macedonia & Kosovo, you have a very strong bonus with only 4 borders.

The only really problematic area I can see is Croatia, which means Slovenia doesn't have a feasible place to expand to. I could compensate this by increasing Slovenia's bonus, making it stronger in the early game but weaker in the mid/late game.

[Dukasaur]

Definitely add mountains. I just haven't decided on the exact locations (there are so damn many mountains to choose from!)

Anyway, Croatia at least needs some border reduction, maybe Bosnia too...

Well, how about approaching it from the opposite direction: the rivers? You're right, mountains are everywhere in Yugoslavia, and they don't form a really meaningful pattern (speaking from a warlord's perspective, of course. I'm sure it's a very meaningful pattern to a geologist.)

If you just accept that mountains are everywhere, but the river valleys make them passable, then zones become connected if and only if they share a common river.

[natty dread]

Next iteration -
I decided to scrap the previous capital idea, in favour of a more conventional approach - the capitals now give a bonus, and there is now a victory condition for holding Belgrade + 4 other capitals which gives Belgrade a slight edge.

Also I put in some impassables. They're ugly, I know, I'll make them nicer later.

[bigimg]http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/5396/yugo3.png[/bigimg]

[Dukasaur]

Since you seem to be able to whip these things off in no time, how about trying my idea, just as a quick experiment? Just make everything impassable except where the river valleys (or on the coast, the sea) makes a passageway. For instance, the Una region only connects to Croatia because the Una valley creates a natural opening through the mountains. Trebinje only connects to Serbia because the Drina connects them. And so on.

I know it's unusual, and I wouldn't suggest it if I thought it would make your life difficult, but like I said you seem to be able to knock off experiments quickly and easily. And it might lead to something really unique, even while being geographically accurate.

[Victor Sullivan]

I agree with Dukasaur, and I'm not entirely confident in the victory condition you've implemented...

-Sully

[theBastard]

just one question: why not to do Yugoslavia map from Civil War? it could be interesting with all ethnic problems and areas with mixed population...

[natty dread]

make everything impassable except where the river valleys (or on the coast, the sea) makes a passageway.

Umm, no. Too many impassables. Sorry but that's just a bad idea.

I've always been of the opinion that gameplay needs to come first, geographical accuracy second. After all we're not using these maps to learn geography.

just one question: why not to do Yugoslavia map from Civil War?

Because I'm making this map. Why don't you do it?

[The Bison King]

Looks good. Looks very similar to:



but this is a map a lot of people have wanted for a long time. I think the victor condition seems a little tacked on. I like the cities bonus, but I don't know if the Belgrade +4 thing is really necessary.

[koontz1973]

Not sure about the winning condition as if you get a drop mostly in the south, you have 3 of your 4 right there, with two others just north of Belgrade.

[natty dread]

Yeah the victory condition will probably go.

[Industrial Helix]

Interesting map, somewhat classic gameplay style.

The graphics texture is missing a certain something... I'm not sure what. I like the cement block feeling, very Cold War imo. So that's good. But the colors are too purely put on there. Could you weather them some?

The mountains are too 3d modeled for the map.... I wonder if you could work something in there using the cement background. Maybe chipped cement or ridges of cement.

Anyway, this is all advanced stuff for this map... if you're happy to continue this map, I'm happy to move it on.