Montreal Map [Done]

[rocksolid]

Hey everybody,

Looking for comments on this map. It's a niche market here, but there's more than a few Montrealers on this site, so I figured at least a handful of people might get a kick out of it.



There are no names on it right now...

Only have the small version right now, because I figured if there were any adjustments it'd be better to only have to do them once. The colours look a little scuzzy on photobucket, but thar ya go. I didn't put continent bonuses on yet, but here's a shot at it:

Ile Bizard (teal): 1
Suburbia (green): 4
West End (purple): 4
Transalpinia (yellow): 5
Ville-Marie (blue): 2, plus whoever has downtown gets 1, so 3
Bout-de-l'ile (red): 4
Laval (hot pink): 2
Longueuil (orange): 2

The parts with the little pictures are impassable, and the canal near the south of the city is only passable at the bridges. And the little guy in the sailboat is me.

[supermarcol]

If you want to make it more interesting, you should consider including laval and the south shore, using the bridges as links. It would make a couple more continents. I thought about doing such a map before, it could work, but like the minnesota map it will probably only interest the people living there. But hey, it interests me . Read the discussions about the other maps to see pitfalls and give it a try.

[Pedronicus]

you want to make city maps out of decent cities.

Massive cities, like mexico city. tokyo, new york, London etc.

Hey, who remembers the london postcode map idea?

[rocksolid]

Thanks Marcol, I had been thinking about that, but I make a lot of jokes about my friends from Laval, so I hesitated...as you can see above, I've changed it to include Laval and Longueuil. That makes 47 territories right now, which I know won't be popular cause it's a prime...I also joined Jean-Drapeau to Downtown.

As for Pedronicus' comment, I'll leave anyone to take that one up in the Flame Wars forums...

And I'll concede London is a decent city when someone loves it enough to give it a map.

[thegrimsleeper]

Umm... not to get too far off-topic here, but are you really saying that London is a less-than-decent city??

[rocksolid]

No, I was just throwing a little flame back at Pedronicus. I'm sure it's lovely.

[casper]

are those maple leaves or marijuana leaves?

[rocksolid]

Well, it is a map of Montreal...

That's Gimp's idea of maple leaves.

[rocksolid]

All right, here it is with names and bonuses and stuff. This is the large version, which is just a scaled-up version of the small one. I didn't bother with little circles for the army amounts - I kind of prefer the Canada map where the numbers just sort of float there without their own little coffee stains.

[quinnster9]

what?? no ile perot???jk.. ya man.. map looks awesome to me... just touched up on my geography of montreal... i never knew where exactly some of those places are..... thanks for the lesson..

[lackattack]

I have to say that I love this map. Of course, I'm a bit biased towards my hometown.

[seraphesy]

where the hell is BROSSARD!

[Dread Wains]

Mr. Solid,

I think that maybe you want to avoid having borders of countries that converge into a single point, such as Ste-Anne, Kirland, Baie d'Urfe, and Beaconsfield. It is not clear whether Beaconsfield can attack Ste-Anne or whether Kirkland can attack Baie d'Urfe.

I'm also thinking it would be more interesting to add some fictional bridges. St-Francois to Riviere-des-Prairies for example would make Laval more vulnerable. Or maybe St-Lambert to Nun's Island. In any case I don't think that Laval or Longeuil should be worth any more that 1 army apiece, given the filthy wastelands that they are.

Here's an idea for our revered CC Founder: allow maps to define certain "express lanes" that can transport troops between any two countries bordering such a lane, during a fortification. An example would be the Lachine Canal. For example, Lachine could send a barge of troops all the way Downtown in one move.

Overall, an excellent job, my boy. Thanks for putting Montréal on the map.

[rocksolid]

where the hell is BROSSARD!

Exactly.

But seriously, I knew I would have to apologize to some Brossardians for this. The map I was using for this cuts off before Brossard, except for the southwesternmost tip of what's St-Lambert on this map should actually be Brossard. If the map were extended a little further south, then it could fit in there, but then I'd have all the Candiac and Ste-Catherine people on my case, and I don't want to mess with Guillaume Latendresse...

[Hoff]

I would suggest toning down the colors so they arnt so bright and distracting. and also adding some texture to make it more appealing and making the water more blue. Just some ideas on how to make it look more visually appealing.

[rocksolid]

Mr. Solid,

I think that maybe you want to avoid having borders of countries that converge into a single point, such as Ste-Anne, Kirland, Baie d'Urfe, and Beaconsfield. It is not clear whether Beaconsfield can attack Ste-Anne or whether Kirkland can attack Baie d'Urfe.

I'm really reluctant to mess with that for the not very good reason that it's true-to-life accurate. I have gone to that point on the island in the past and painted a chalk picture of Dread Wains and congratulated myself on inflicting your image on 4 suburbs at the same time. If I cleaned it up a bit to make it clear that none of them can cross-attack, would that do it?

I'm also thinking it would be more interesting to add some fictional bridges. St-Francois to Riviere-des-Prairies for example would make Laval more vulnerable. Or maybe St-Lambert to Nun's Island.

There's non-fictional bridges from Nun's Island to St-Lambert and Pont-Viau to Ahuntsic and Duvernay to Mtl-Nord that I erased. The Nun's Island one disappeared because I wanted to make the West End a little easier to hold and because I originally wanted to draw in a little icon of Jose Theodore's house with a for-sale sign; the Pont-Viau and Duvernay ones vanished to make Transalpinia a little less impossible to hold. What do people think?

Here's an idea for our revered CC Founder: allow maps to define certain "express lanes" that can transport troops between any two countries bordering such a lane, during a fortification. An example would be the Lachine Canal. For example, Lachine could send a barge of troops all the way Downtown in one move.

This can already be done as is as long as the express lanes allow for attack as well as fortification, if I'm not mistaken, by just making them adjacent in the xml file. But the main reason I widened the canal was to create an obstacle to make things a little less wide-open, not open things up. More voices on this...

And speaking of filthy wastelands, Mr. Wains, I was thinking of making whoever holds Pointe-Claire (or at least the Cedar Park part of it) incur a 1 army penalty per turn, just because.

Looking forward to slide tackling your ankles with sharpened cleats,

Señor Solido

[Marvaddin]

Put here the continent-by-continent analysis, and you will find some things wrong, for example that pink continent being connected to only one country.

Suggestions: dont waste those grey regions, they can be better used; on other hand, who will care about a continent of bonus 1? Please increase it a bit...

[rocksolid]

Here goes...

Ile Bizard (teal) - 3 countries, 1 border country, 1 entry country, bonus 1
Suburbia (green) - 9 countries, 3 borderers, 3 entries, 4
West End (purple) - 8 countries, 3 border, 3 ents, 5
Transalpinia (brown) - 6, 4 border, 7 ents, 6
Ville-Marie (blue) - 4, 3 border, 5 ents, 2 + 1 for downtown so 3 if you hold the whole thing
Laval (pink) - 7, 2 border, 1 ent, 3
Bout-de-L'ile (red) - 6 countries, 3 border, 5 entries, 4
Longueuil (orange) - 5 countries, 2 border, 2 ents, 2

I have to say I'm not overly sympathetic to orthodoxy in bonuses, eg "Suburbia is like North America so it should necessarily be 5." I think every board will have overvalued and undervalued continents - why are South America and Australia worth the same, after all? - and I think some unusual patterns that don't pop up on the classic map are part of what makes new maps a true test for the high-end strategists like Marv - i.e. how to identify the overvalued continents and prioritize for them, and deal with situations you've never had to deal with before, like a 7-country continent with only one entry country. That's kind of why I like the possibility of a tiny 3-country continent with a bonus of only one - if it's not worth fighting over, well, I guess no one will fight over it, or the wise players will let the unwise fight over it. Or a continent rich in territories but with no bonus at all, so the countries are only good for income? Maybe that would be one way to satisfy Wains' hatred of Laval.

The only real danger I see with bonuses is where one continent is so overvalued relative to all the rest that the game is effectively determined the moment someone gains control of it. Like if on a classic board Australia was worth 4.

That said, looking at Laval again, Wains + Marv's wisdom does seem to be pushing me towards re-installing the Mtl-Nord to Duvernay bridge. And please don't let my above blathering about liking odd bonuses get in the way of good arguments for changing the ones up here.

[rocksolid]

Next version, with some suggestions taken:

- Water darkened
- slight texture added (meant to reflect relief of actual island, but doesn't quite catch it)
- New bridge added to Laval from Mtl-Nord to Duvernay
- Kirkland/Baie d'Urfe/Beaconsfield/Ste-Anne's corner meant to be clearer



And, just for fun, the "I like the nightlife" version, which I think is way too sexy to ever be played on.

[dissolution]

what about adding varennes next to boucherville, and i would rename that continent "South Shore" since we did demerge

[dissolution]

and maybe dorval being able to attack st-hubert, since both have an airport, although our st-hubert airport is a lil useless

[zorba_ca]

A few suggestions (as a one-time Montrealer myself)

1. Wayyyyy too many colours going on. The best maps (read: most visually appealing) keep all the territories in a continent a uniform colour and clearly define the borders using an easily identifiable thick line. If you want to use "blocking territories" make them a solid colour (grey, black or white)

2. Since the territories are so tight together, make bridges and other non-uniform connectors almost cartoonish in nature (like a big wooden bridge) so that there is no doubt about the connection.

After you do this it will be much easier to read, appear more playable, and we can discuss bonuses and other such things.

[Marvaddin]

Ok, so you think some continents should have a bonus greater than the real value, and others have a bonus smaller than the real value. Will it help the wise players? I dont know. I think the map needs to be balanced.

Let me see:

Ile Bizard (teal) - 3 countries, 1 border country, 1 entry country, bonus 1 -its balanced, but pretty weak. Unless someone starts with 2 countries there, a loss of time. A good place to eliminate the last player, nothing more

Suburbia (green) - 9 countries, 3 borderers, 3 entries, 4 - why not a bonus of 5 (like North America)? Is it a continent to the fools? After conquer it, the unwise will go for Ile Bizard

West End (purple) - 8 countries, 3 border, 3 ents, 5 - oh, a continent for the wise!! Although the bonus could be 4...

Transalpinia (brown) - 6, 4 border, 7 ents, 6 - 8 attack route, not 7. But, seriously, a continent of 6 countries cant have a bonus of 6.

Ville-Marie (blue) - 4, 3 border, 5 ents, 2 + 1 for downtown so 3 if you hold the whole thing - I dislike the idea of giva player a bonus for doing nothing. Bonus for hold 1 country? Bad idea. You can change the total bonus to 3, only this. Or even 2, maybe reducing a border.

Laval (pink) - 7, 2 border, 1 ent, 3 - after the update, 3 borders, 2 entries. Easy to defend, but not that easy to conquer... It can be good in team games. # is ok.

Bout-de-L'ile (red) - 6 countries, 3 border, 5 entries, 4 - another continent to the wise. Seriously, 3 would be a good bonus.

Longueuil (orange) - 5 countries, 2 border, 2 ents, 2 - ok.

I think you should delete the reefs. The water colour is making some areas confused, too. Those islands in Downtown, for example. And I agree with zorba (name of a Brazilian male underwear). One texture to each continent would make the map more readable. You could also avoid letters both white and black for the same area.

Good, keep the hard work.

[rocksolid]

Sorry everybody, been away from this for a long time, but here's the latest (final?) version incorporating what I felt were the best of your many helpful suggestions. Bonuses have been adjusted, differences in colour have been reduced (but not eliminated - I like the slight intra-continent colour variations that you see in the board game), bridges added, texture added. Longueuil has become South Shore, but Varennes has not been added (sorry) and I decided not to go for the airport idea with St-Hubert.

[quinnster9]

looks great.. cant wait to play it...Q9