Conquer Club

AndyDufresne wrote:I've heard good things about Tropico, but I've never played the series.


--Andy

I watched a little bit of a walkthrough on youtube and read some reviews and checked out it's wikipedia page, overall I like what I see so I'm going to give it a go. I'll let you guys know if I liked it or not. And of course why as well.

I know I'm years late getting to it, but I've finally delved into the Mass Effect universe over the last 6 or so months. I've heard the criticisms on gameplay and they're accurate, but I am fully impressed with the depth of the universe they've created. As a details oriented guy, I'm enjoying the subplots and side-stories and customizability of each game.

denominator wrote:I know I'm years late getting to it, but I've finally delved into the Mass Effect universe over the last 6 or so months. I've heard the criticisms on gameplay and they're accurate, but I am fully impressed with the depth of the universe they've created. As a details oriented guy, I'm enjoying the subplots and side-stories and customizability of each game.

Yeah, there are some issues, but overall, a very enjoyable series. Very good up until the ending(s) of ME3, but still.

denominator wrote:I know I'm years late getting to it, but I've finally delved into the Mass Effect universe over the last 6 or so months. I've heard the criticisms on gameplay and they're accurate, but I am fully impressed with the depth of the universe they've created. As a details oriented guy, I'm enjoying the subplots and side-stories and customizability of each game.

I'm still disappointed with the cover system.... I liked the story, but I just couldn't forgive the fact that grenades were set to R. (constantly blowing myself up ) and the clunky crappy cover system. To put it in perspective I had been playing Ghost Recon Online which IMO has one of the best cover systems there is currently for a TPS/FPS period. I have yet to find one that matches it in complexity and usefulness.
The weekly humble bundle is lots of fun though. Cleared Binary Domain 2x (normal/hard modes) and despite the mediocre reviews I found it enjoyable. The dialog options left something to be desired though.....This weeks though... ): it leaves something to be desired. Symphony looks interesting but other wise >.>

Playing Heroes of Might and Magic III.



Purely for a little walk down memory lane. Thinking of going with the looking backwards theme, considering knocking the dust off my Magic the Gathering cards.

BoganGod wrote:Playing Heroes of Might and Magic III.



Purely for a little walk down memory lane. Thinking of going with the looking backwards theme, considering knocking the dust off my Magic the Gathering cards.

I played so much Heroes of Might and Magic II. A decent amount of III and some IV.


--Andy

muy_thaiguy wrote:

denominator wrote:I know I'm years late getting to it, but I've finally delved into the Mass Effect universe over the last 6 or so months. I've heard the criticisms on gameplay and they're accurate, but I am fully impressed with the depth of the universe they've created. As a details oriented guy, I'm enjoying the subplots and side-stories and customizability of each game.

Yeah, there are some issues, but overall, a very enjoyable series. Very good up until the ending(s) of ME3, but still.

So I've heard. I'll know more when I get there (I reckon I'm about 1/3 to 1/2 way through ME3), but I can already see that almost any ending would be unsatisfying. There is simply so much going on that there is no way to conclusively end it (similar to Game of Thrones, or any other expansive game/tv series).

rishaed wrote:

denominator wrote:I know I'm years late getting to it, but I've finally delved into the Mass Effect universe over the last 6 or so months. I've heard the criticisms on gameplay and they're accurate, but I am fully impressed with the depth of the universe they've created. As a details oriented guy, I'm enjoying the subplots and side-stories and customizability of each game.

I'm still disappointed with the cover system.... I liked the story, but I just couldn't forgive the fact that grenades were set to R. (constantly blowing myself up ) and the clunky crappy cover system. To put it in perspective I had been playing Ghost Recon Online which IMO has one of the best cover systems there is currently for a TPS/FPS period. I have yet to find one that matches it in complexity and usefulness.
The weekly humble bundle is lots of fun though. Cleared Binary Domain 2x (normal/hard modes) and despite the mediocre reviews I found it enjoyable. The dialog options left something to be desired though.....This weeks though... ): it leaves something to be desired. Symphony looks interesting but other wise >.>

The grenades got much better when I mapped them to one of the bumpers so I could use them without using the power wheel. I haven't played Ghost Recon but play a lot of Gears of War, which also has a much better cover system than Mass Effect.

denominator wrote:

muy_thaiguy wrote:

denominator wrote:I know I'm years late getting to it, but I've finally delved into the Mass Effect universe over the last 6 or so months. I've heard the criticisms on gameplay and they're accurate, but I am fully impressed with the depth of the universe they've created. As a details oriented guy, I'm enjoying the subplots and side-stories and customizability of each game.

Yeah, there are some issues, but overall, a very enjoyable series. Very good up until the ending(s) of ME3, but still.

So I've heard. I'll know more when I get there (I reckon I'm about 1/3 to 1/2 way through ME3), but I can already see that almost any ending would be unsatisfying. There is simply so much going on that there is no way to conclusively end it (similar to Game of Thrones, or any other expansive game/tv series).

Trust me when I say that they barely even tried. That ending... I absolutely loved everything about 3. And then that happened.

Jmac1026 wrote:

denominator wrote:

muy_thaiguy wrote:

denominator wrote:I know I'm years late getting to it, but I've finally delved into the Mass Effect universe over the last 6 or so months. I've heard the criticisms on gameplay and they're accurate, but I am fully impressed with the depth of the universe they've created. As a details oriented guy, I'm enjoying the subplots and side-stories and customizability of each game.

Yeah, there are some issues, but overall, a very enjoyable series. Very good up until the ending(s) of ME3, but still.

So I've heard. I'll know more when I get there (I reckon I'm about 1/3 to 1/2 way through ME3), but I can already see that almost any ending would be unsatisfying. There is simply so much going on that there is no way to conclusively end it (similar to Game of Thrones, or any other expansive game/tv series).

Trust me when I say that they barely even tried. That ending... I absolutely loved everything about 3. And then that happened.

Yep. Hint of advice Denominator, get the extended ending DLC for ME3. It's slightly more satisfying than the original.

muy_thaiguy wrote:

Jmac1026 wrote:

denominator wrote:

muy_thaiguy wrote:

denominator wrote:I know I'm years late getting to it, but I've finally delved into the Mass Effect universe over the last 6 or so months. I've heard the criticisms on gameplay and they're accurate, but I am fully impressed with the depth of the universe they've created. As a details oriented guy, I'm enjoying the subplots and side-stories and customizability of each game.

Yeah, there are some issues, but overall, a very enjoyable series. Very good up until the ending(s) of ME3, but still.

So I've heard. I'll know more when I get there (I reckon I'm about 1/3 to 1/2 way through ME3), but I can already see that almost any ending would be unsatisfying. There is simply so much going on that there is no way to conclusively end it (similar to Game of Thrones, or any other expansive game/tv series).

Trust me when I say that they barely even tried. That ending... I absolutely loved everything about 3. And then that happened.

Yep. Hint of advice Denominator, get the extended ending DLC for ME3. It's slightly more satisfying than the original.

I did, along with most of the other DLC. But I didn't get it before starting the game, I bought it partway through. From what i understand, that means it may not run the extended ending.

Yeah, the extended ending may not work until you basically restart the game. Didn't work for me on my first play through, on the next one it did though.

Tropico 4 is pretty fun so far, one thing I've noticed is that it's important to take your time while playing it, enjoyment is reduced significantly when you fast forward time. The details is what is fun about this thing, the "God mode" meaning you can't be overthrown by rebels, die in conflict, become invaded by USA or USSR or elected out of office, is pointless as trying to avoid those things are a large part of the point with the game.
It's surprisingly hard to manage the island's economy long term. Short term is pretty easy, just build mines and grow farms, chop down wood and exploit the oil deposits. Long term however a lot of these natural resources will become depleted which can cause issues if you haven't planned for it, it's the way it should be. You can get into financial problems while still having a pretty steady economy though if you underestimate the long term costs of some of your new investments, such as providing air conditioning to appartments. I got royally fucked over and deep in debt when I tried to raise the living standards in my peoples homes, I learned a lesson from that.....NEVER CARE ABOUT THE PEOPLE YOU RULE! CAPITALISM FTW!!
The addition of pretty frequently recurring natural disasters such as vulcanoes and floods is fun but a bit extreme in terms of frequency. Even if you've set the number of natural disasters to low you will still experience several vulcanic eruptions and oil spills during your reign, you can turn it off though if you want.

I have to play it a bit more before I can recommend it, not sure how much replay value the game has yet, only way to judge that is by seeing if I keep coming back to play it. So far so good though.

Gillipig wrote:Tropico 4 is pretty fun so far, one thing I've noticed is that it's important to take your time while playing it, enjoyment is reduced significantly when you fast forward time. The details is what is fun about this thing, the "God mode" meaning you can't be overthrown by rebels, die in conflict, become invaded by USA or USSR or elected out of office, is pointless as trying to avoid those things are a large part of the point with the game.
It's surprisingly hard to manage the island's economy long term. Short term is pretty easy, just build mines and grow farms, chop down wood and exploit the oil deposits. Long term however a lot of these natural resources will become depleted which can cause issues if you haven't planned for it, it's the way it should be. You can get into financial problems while still having a pretty steady economy though if you underestimate the long term costs of some of your new investments, such as providing air conditioning to appartments. I got royally fucked over and deep in debt when I tried to raise the living standards in my peoples homes, I learned a lesson from that.....NEVER CARE ABOUT THE PEOPLE YOU RULE! CAPITALISM FTW!!
The addition of pretty frequently recurring natural disasters such as vulcanoes and floods is fun but a bit extreme in terms of frequency. Even if you've set the number of natural disasters to low you will still experience several vulcanic eruptions and oil spills during your reign, you can turn it off though if you want.

I have to play it a bit more before I can recommend it, not sure how much replay value the game has yet, only way to judge that is by seeing if I keep coming back to play it. So far so good though.

I played it on a free Steam demo, so can't speak for the whole game. I found it kind of dull whilst also being kinda confusing.

Gillipig wrote:Tropico 4 is pretty fun so far, one thing I've noticed is that it's important to take your time while playing it, enjoyment is reduced significantly when you fast forward time. The details is what is fun about this thing, the "God mode" meaning you can't be overthrown by rebels, die in conflict, become invaded by USA or USSR or elected out of office, is pointless as trying to avoid those things are a large part of the point with the game.
It's surprisingly hard to manage the island's economy long term. Short term is pretty easy, just build mines and grow farms, chop down wood and exploit the oil deposits. Long term however a lot of these natural resources will become depleted which can cause issues if you haven't planned for it, it's the way it should be. You can get into financial problems while still having a pretty steady economy though if you underestimate the long term costs of some of your new investments, such as providing air conditioning to appartments. I got royally fucked over and deep in debt when I tried to raise the living standards in my peoples homes, I learned a lesson from that.....NEVER CARE ABOUT THE PEOPLE YOU RULE! CAPITALISM FTW!!
The addition of pretty frequently recurring natural disasters such as vulcanoes and floods is fun but a bit extreme in terms of frequency. Even if you've set the number of natural disasters to low you will still experience several vulcanic eruptions and oil spills during your reign, you can turn it off though if you want.

I have to play it a bit more before I can recommend it, not sure how much replay value the game has yet, only way to judge that is by seeing if I keep coming back to play it. So far so good though.

In Tropico I, you had to manually set each place's wage. Do you have to do that in Tropico 4? That pretty much bored the hell out of me. Where's the "let the people figure it out" option?

BigBallinStalin wrote:

Gillipig wrote:Tropico 4 is pretty fun so far, one thing I've noticed is that it's important to take your time while playing it, enjoyment is reduced significantly when you fast forward time. The details is what is fun about this thing, the "God mode" meaning you can't be overthrown by rebels, die in conflict, become invaded by USA or USSR or elected out of office, is pointless as trying to avoid those things are a large part of the point with the game.
It's surprisingly hard to manage the island's economy long term. Short term is pretty easy, just build mines and grow farms, chop down wood and exploit the oil deposits. Long term however a lot of these natural resources will become depleted which can cause issues if you haven't planned for it, it's the way it should be. You can get into financial problems while still having a pretty steady economy though if you underestimate the long term costs of some of your new investments, such as providing air conditioning to appartments. I got royally fucked over and deep in debt when I tried to raise the living standards in my peoples homes, I learned a lesson from that.....NEVER CARE ABOUT THE PEOPLE YOU RULE! CAPITALISM FTW!!
The addition of pretty frequently recurring natural disasters such as vulcanoes and floods is fun but a bit extreme in terms of frequency. Even if you've set the number of natural disasters to low you will still experience several vulcanic eruptions and oil spills during your reign, you can turn it off though if you want.

I have to play it a bit more before I can recommend it, not sure how much replay value the game has yet, only way to judge that is by seeing if I keep coming back to play it. So far so good though.

In Tropico I, you had to manually set each place's wage. Do you have to do that in Tropico 4? That pretty much bored the hell out of me. Where's the "let the people figure it out" option?

Sounds like BBS was taught an important economic lesson. I don't know what exactly, since I'm not an economist.


--Andy

AndyDufresne wrote:

BigBallinStalin wrote:

Gillipig wrote:Tropico 4 is pretty fun so far, one thing I've noticed is that it's important to take your time while playing it, enjoyment is reduced significantly when you fast forward time. The details is what is fun about this thing, the "God mode" meaning you can't be overthrown by rebels, die in conflict, become invaded by USA or USSR or elected out of office, is pointless as trying to avoid those things are a large part of the point with the game.
It's surprisingly hard to manage the island's economy long term. Short term is pretty easy, just build mines and grow farms, chop down wood and exploit the oil deposits. Long term however a lot of these natural resources will become depleted which can cause issues if you haven't planned for it, it's the way it should be. You can get into financial problems while still having a pretty steady economy though if you underestimate the long term costs of some of your new investments, such as providing air conditioning to appartments. I got royally fucked over and deep in debt when I tried to raise the living standards in my peoples homes, I learned a lesson from that.....NEVER CARE ABOUT THE PEOPLE YOU RULE! CAPITALISM FTW!!
The addition of pretty frequently recurring natural disasters such as vulcanoes and floods is fun but a bit extreme in terms of frequency. Even if you've set the number of natural disasters to low you will still experience several vulcanic eruptions and oil spills during your reign, you can turn it off though if you want.

I have to play it a bit more before I can recommend it, not sure how much replay value the game has yet, only way to judge that is by seeing if I keep coming back to play it. So far so good though.

In Tropico I, you had to manually set each place's wage. Do you have to do that in Tropico 4? That pretty much bored the hell out of me. Where's the "let the people figure it out" option?

Sounds like BBS was taught an important economic lesson. I don't know what exactly, since I'm not an economist.


--Andy

1. Pay the military very well.
2. Ignore citizen preferences.
3. Crush all dissidents with the use of force.

For some reason, all of my doctors quit the job and became farmers or some such nonsense. I kept raising the wage and importing them, but they grew tired of the People's complaints and decided that a life of bartending or plowing was their calling.

(I had them assassinated. No one defies the Supreme Leader's commands!).

BigBallinStalin wrote:

Gillipig wrote:Tropico 4 is pretty fun so far, one thing I've noticed is that it's important to take your time while playing it, enjoyment is reduced significantly when you fast forward time. The details is what is fun about this thing, the "God mode" meaning you can't be overthrown by rebels, die in conflict, become invaded by USA or USSR or elected out of office, is pointless as trying to avoid those things are a large part of the point with the game.
It's surprisingly hard to manage the island's economy long term. Short term is pretty easy, just build mines and grow farms, chop down wood and exploit the oil deposits. Long term however a lot of these natural resources will become depleted which can cause issues if you haven't planned for it, it's the way it should be. You can get into financial problems while still having a pretty steady economy though if you underestimate the long term costs of some of your new investments, such as providing air conditioning to appartments. I got royally fucked over and deep in debt when I tried to raise the living standards in my peoples homes, I learned a lesson from that.....NEVER CARE ABOUT THE PEOPLE YOU RULE! CAPITALISM FTW!!
The addition of pretty frequently recurring natural disasters such as vulcanoes and floods is fun but a bit extreme in terms of frequency. Even if you've set the number of natural disasters to low you will still experience several vulcanic eruptions and oil spills during your reign, you can turn it off though if you want.

I have to play it a bit more before I can recommend it, not sure how much replay value the game has yet, only way to judge that is by seeing if I keep coming back to play it. So far so good though.

In Tropico I, you had to manually set each place's wage. Do you have to do that in Tropico 4? That pretty much bored the hell out of me. Where's the "let the people figure it out" option?

There's still no "free market capitalism" option, the downside with being a dictator is that you have to "dictate"......*chuckles*. But you can set the wage for groups of workers such as "construction workers", "soldiers" or "farmers".

BigBallinStalin wrote:
1. Pay the military very well.
2. Ignore citizen preferences.
3. Crush all dissidents with the use of force.

For some reason, all of my doctors quit the job and became farmers or some such nonsense. I kept raising the wage and importing them, but they grew tired of the People's complaints and decided that a life of bartending or plowing was their calling.

(I had them assassinated. No one defies the Supreme Leader's commands!).

Crushing your citizens does tend to harm population growth however, which is a very important component in this game. It is very imortant to set up a good propaganda system though, tv stations, newspaper and radio is very effective to give the people the illusion that they have high liberty. (just like in real life)

It's very difficult to please the religious nuts of the island, I'm building Cathedrals like they were 7eleven's yet somehow they're not satisfied. "Do you know how expensive Cathedrals are?" I feel like asking them. "I could get multiple factories for this amount of money. At least be grateful you greedy fucks!"

This is a silly game, I may consider playing:


--Andy

Crusader Kings 2 had a sale on some DLC, so I picked 'em up at a discount. Gillipig would be proud. I started playing as a duke in Scandinavia, and after raiding the northern German and French coasts, I eventually managed to subjugate most of my neighbors and created the Kingdom of Norway. I'm eyeing Gillipig's Sweden next.


--Andy

AndyDufresne wrote:Crusader Kings 2 had a sale on some DLC, so I picked 'em up at a discount. Gillipig would be proud. I started playing as a duke in Scandinavia, and after raiding the northern German and French coasts, I eventually managed to subjugate most of my neighbors and created the Kingdom of Norway. I'm eyeing Gillipig's Sweden next.


--Andy

Sounds like you picked up the "Old Gods" DLC. It's very much worth it, draws back the clock to mid 9th century and lets you play as Vikings and Zoroastians etc. I enjoyed playing as teh Zoroastrians just to test the dangers of incest. In the Zoroastrian faith close relatives can marry, so what I did was marry my children to each other generation after generation and see how long it took until everyone was imbeciles. Turns out it didn't take too long. The challenge of ruling while stuck with only imbeciles was also quite fun.
Another challenge I set for myself was conquering the world with the Samoyedian's (a tribe of people located at the very north of western Russia, basically inuits.). Being in a corner is quite the advantage, your biggest threat is obviously Rurik and his Russia, if you save up a lot of money and attack him when he's in some sort of a civil war you have a shot at taking his kingdom. Once you've done that your expansion should be a lot easier.

Adom! again:)

Gillipig wrote:

AndyDufresne wrote:Crusader Kings 2 had a sale on some DLC, so I picked 'em up at a discount. Gillipig would be proud. I started playing as a duke in Scandinavia, and after raiding the northern German and French coasts, I eventually managed to subjugate most of my neighbors and created the Kingdom of Norway. I'm eyeing Gillipig's Sweden next.


--Andy

Sounds like you picked up the "Old Gods" DLC. It's very much worth it, draws back the clock to mid 9th century and lets you play as Vikings and Zoroastians etc. I enjoyed playing as teh Zoroastrians just to test the dangers of incest. In the Zoroastrian faith close relatives can marry, so what I did was marry my children to each other generation after generation and see how long it took until everyone was imbeciles. Turns out it didn't take too long. The challenge of ruling while stuck with only imbeciles was also quite fun.
Another challenge I set for myself was conquering the world with the Samoyedian's (a tribe of people located at the very north of western Russia, basically inuits.). Being in a corner is quite the advantage, your biggest threat is obviously Rurik and his Russia, if you save up a lot of money and attack him when he's in some sort of a civil war you have a shot at taking his kingdom. Once you've done that your expansion should be a lot easier.

Yep. It is a fun addition. I also picked of the Sons of Abraham dlc as well, which adds Judaism I think, and expands papal control like eu4 it sounds like, more events, and new holy order actions.


--Andy

AndyDufresne wrote:

Gillipig wrote:

AndyDufresne wrote:Crusader Kings 2 had a sale on some DLC, so I picked 'em up at a discount. Gillipig would be proud. I started playing as a duke in Scandinavia, and after raiding the northern German and French coasts, I eventually managed to subjugate most of my neighbors and created the Kingdom of Norway. I'm eyeing Gillipig's Sweden next.


--Andy

Sounds like you picked up the "Old Gods" DLC. It's very much worth it, draws back the clock to mid 9th century and lets you play as Vikings and Zoroastians etc. I enjoyed playing as teh Zoroastrians just to test the dangers of incest. In the Zoroastrian faith close relatives can marry, so what I did was marry my children to each other generation after generation and see how long it took until everyone was imbeciles. Turns out it didn't take too long. The challenge of ruling while stuck with only imbeciles was also quite fun.
Another challenge I set for myself was conquering the world with the Samoyedian's (a tribe of people located at the very north of western Russia, basically inuits.). Being in a corner is quite the advantage, your biggest threat is obviously Rurik and his Russia, if you save up a lot of money and attack him when he's in some sort of a civil war you have a shot at taking his kingdom. Once you've done that your expansion should be a lot easier.

Yep. It is a fun addition. I also picked of the Sons of Abraham dlc as well, which adds Judaism I think, and expands papal control like eu4 it sounds like, more events, and new holy order actions.


--Andy

I don't have the Sons of Abraham DLC. I doesn't contain very much new stuff, except being able to play as Jews which would be fun of course, reconquering Israel is an obvious goal and maybe go and create a Jewish Empire in the middle east after that. Could be a lot of fun. But the whole playing as the Pope thing doesn't intrigue me.
Old Gods is a must even if you never want to play as Pagans, because it give 200 years more of timeline. There should've been something similar to make me need it.
Do you know if they're going to make another DLC?

Oh and btw, I've pretty much stopped playing Tropico 4. Not that much replay value as it turns out. I've read that Tropico 5 is going to be a totally different type of game though. Apparently it doesn't just include one man's tenure as dictator, you start of the game in the early colonial age and you're the one who explores the island (it's in fog of war mode in the beginning) then you colonize it and try to keep up with technology and manage resources as the years go by. I think there's also going to be a multiplayer option where you can play against and with other players on other islands and on the same island. This radically changes the series froma purely economical and societal game into a game that oncludes warfare as well. I'm very intrigued of the posssibilities of this game, but it's going to be one hard gaem if you ahve to juggle such an advanced economy game with warfare.

Picked up Fable for £1 on Steam, it's very confusing.

Gillipig wrote: Sons of Abraham DLC. I doesn't contain very much new stuff, except being able to play as Jews which would be fun of course, reconquering Israel is an obvious goal and maybe go and create a Jewish Empire in the middle east after that. Could be a lot of fun. But the whole playing as the Pope thing doesn't intrigue me.

Old Gods is a must even if you never want to play as Pagans, because it give 200 years more of timeline. There should've been something similar to make me need it.

Yeah, the whole reason I hadn't picked these expansion dlcs -- I was unsure of their value. But I managed to get both for like 6 bucks, and that seemed fitting.

Do you know if they're going to make another DLC?

They just came out with "Rajas of India" DLC -- again, a pricey one I won't get until it is discounted on a steam sale probably.

Rajas of India features twice the landmass of the base game.
Play as an Indian ruler. Start a new and quite different type of game by playing as an Indian raja in 867 (if you have The Old Gods expansion) or at any point between 1066 to 1337 AD.
Three new Unique Religions. Choose between the Buddhist, Jain and Hindu beliefs for different benefits.
Caste System.
Experience Indian Events & Decisions.
Elephants and Jungles.
Hundreds of new Provinces including Central Asia and large parts of Siberia too.
New Interface Skin.
Indian characters get a unique set of facial profiles and clothes.
Steam MP Matchmaking and Steam Workshop: These features are brought over from Europa Universalis IV into Crusader Kings II, together with Borderless Windowed mode in the patch together with the release of the expansion.

Oh and btw, I've pretty much stopped playing Tropico 4. Not that much replay value as it turns out. I've read that Tropico 5 is going to be a totally different type of game though. Apparently it doesn't just include one man's tenure as dictator, you start of the game in the early colonial age and you're the one who explores the island (it's in fog of war mode in the beginning) then you colonize it and try to keep up with technology and manage resources as the years go by. I think there's also going to be a multiplayer option where you can play against and with other players on other islands and on the same island. This radically changes the series froma purely economical and societal game into a game that oncludes warfare as well. I'm very intrigued of the posssibilities of this game, but it's going to be one hard gaem if you ahve to juggle such an advanced economy game with warfare.

Hm, I'll hold off.


--Andy