If you haven't seen the birth certificate.....

[Titanic]

"Israel has always been happy to go to the table with it's neighbors and discuss terms, they have made many concessions in the past," - I would hardly say Israel has been reasonable in its negotiations. Look at the situation currently, they continue to take over Palestinian land in East Jerusalem and evict Muslims and throw them out of their houses so that they can build more houses on the land for Israeli citizens. Israel cannot be described as a good country which has always seeked peaceful solutions, a lot of its current problems and violence are self-inflicted.

Recently, your right Israel has turned into quite the bully. When the state was first formed Israel was the one that complied with the negotiations and their enemies were the ones that usually broke them. IMO Israel got tired of it and has finally started fighting fire with fire. Is it right? No. Is it the best strategy? No. Do they have more reason than their enemies to do it? Yes.[/quote][/quote]

"Prove to me that is incorrect" - I'm not even sure where I begin. Axis of Evil speech, invaded neighbouring countries, anti-Iran rhetoric, threatening over nuclear programme etc.. Honestly, this really isn't something I should have to prove as its so obvious. Heres a basic start - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-US_re ... #2001-2004

"Before I can answer this truthfully you are going to have to expand the abbreviations" - IRA - Irish Republican Army, NI - Northern Ireland, UK - United Kingdom

"Those are very vague categories, I don't see the issue with putting all Middle East Arab countries into those two categories. Please point out the countries other than Egypt that don't fit into these categories." - UAE, Bahrain, Oman, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon (North + Central), Pakistan, Iran (the citizens rather then the govt), Turkey, Yemen. I think that list will do for now.

"Recently, your right Israel has turned into quite the bully. When the state was first formed Israel was the one that complied with the negotiations and their enemies were the ones that usually broke them. IMO Israel got tired of it and has finally started fighting fire with fire. Is it right? No. Is it the best strategy? No. Do they have more reason than their enemies to do it? Yes." - I will agree with you here. Up until 1973 Israel was the one that acted respectfully and it was the Arab states who were more intent on making violence and trying to defeat it. However after that war and when Israel conclusively beat them and the terrorism started (especially during and after the Lebanon civil war) Israel really lost its way and dealt with the situation horrendously. I agree that they do still behave better then the other countries in the region, but as a free liberal democratic states we have to act better then the closed off totalitarian regimes.

[Carebian Knight]

"Prove to me that is incorrect" - I'm not even sure where I begin. Axis of Evil speech, invaded neighbouring countries, anti-Iran rhetoric, threatening over nuclear programme etc.. Honestly, this really isn't something I should have to prove as its so obvious. Heres a basic start - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-US_re ... #2001-2004

You seem to have taken this from the side of the US. I'm talking about Iranian feelings not what the US has done to make Iranians mad. I'm well aware how Americans feel about Iran and it disgusts me.

"Before I can answer this truthfully you are going to have to expand the abbreviations" - IRA - Irish Republican Army, NI - Northern Ireland, UK - United Kingdom

That was my suspicion but I thought I'd make sure before I made a stupid answer. The Irish and the UK'ers have more in common than the Arab's/Israeli's and the conflict has been going on much longer, things have cooled down some there. I agree that the religious disputes could be basically on the same level, but Protestants don't believe that all Catholics should be wiped off the earth either.

"Those are very vague categories, I don't see the issue with putting all Middle East Arab countries into those two categories. Please point out the countries other than Egypt that don't fit into these categories." - UAE, Bahrain, Oman, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon (North + Central), Pakistan, Iran (the citizens rather then the govt), Turkey, Yemen. I think that list will do for now.

I must apologize here, I entirely overlooked many countries such as the UAE, Bahrain, Oman and Yemen. I was focused on Israel's immediate neighbors and that was a mistake. There are a few in the list that I disagree with. Syria was at war with Israel for what? 40 years? I remember something about a peace proposal through Turkey I think it was, but I don't remember details about it. So maybe they belong on the list now, but I wouldn't add them considering hostilities have only just ended between them. There is still bad blood there. I don't consider Turkey Arab. I thought Jordan was still a supporter of Palestinians and I believe there is still bad blood there as well. Please feel free to correct me. Lebanon may not be against Israel but they are unlucky enough to have Hezbollah in their country and I admit I didn't think of the two as separate so I'll apologize again.

"Recently, your right Israel has turned into quite the bully. When the state was first formed Israel was the one that complied with the negotiations and their enemies were the ones that usually broke them. IMO Israel got tired of it and has finally started fighting fire with fire. Is it right? No. Is it the best strategy? No. Do they have more reason than their enemies to do it? Yes." - I will agree with you here. Up until 1973 Israel was the one that acted respectfully and it was the Arab states who were more intent on making violence and trying to defeat it. However after that war and when Israel conclusively beat them and the terrorism started (especially during and after the Lebanon civil war) Israel really lost its way and dealt with the situation horrendously. I agree that they do still behave better then the other countries in the region, but as a free liberal democratic states we have to act better then the closed off totalitarian regimes.

The part about democratic states acting better is total crap. Humans are humans regardless of their gov't. Everyone has a breaking point and Israel's was passed a few decades ago. I do agree that Israel has handled many recent events horrendously but many have been misconstrued by both sides. The recent invasion of Gaza for instance. I read numerous articles from the Middle East a few days after the invasion and the Israeli articles had very few civilians dying, some saying that none died at all. I don't believe that in the least, an invasion like that is bound to have civilian casualties. On the other side, I saw a couple of Palestinian articles claiming that thousands of civilians were killed as Israel marched across Gaza, I doubt it. Only two articles had numbers that I believed and they both said around 100. I'll concede that both sides are at fault for the most recent conflicts. As for the earlier conflicts I believe whole-heartedly that the Palestinians and the other Arab nations in the immediate area were to blame.