Dogs, Wolves, and Sheep

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GabonX
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Re: Dogs, Wolves, and Sheep

Post by GabonX »

Neoteny wrote:
We may not have effectively demonstrated that the analogy is too simplistic, but you have not demonstrated that it is complex enough. Quid pro quo, friend.

Let's see...

Harry Truman. Essentially ended a world war via the senseless total destruction of two cities and hundreds of thousands of people. Dog or wolf?

Paul Jennings Hill. Killed an abortionist to "save" unborn children. Dog or wolf?

Jefferson Davis. Led his nation in resistance to an invasive force. Dog or wolf?


I'll concede that their can be some overlapping between dog and sheep and dog and wolf, most people do fit relatively nicely into one of these categories. These aren't actually animals but rather personality types regarding conflict.

A big part in deciding whether to consider a person a dog or a wolf is their motivation. Let's look at the examples you've provided.

Harry Truman: I would call him a dog. His intention in dropping the atom bomb was to save American lives. I do believe that had he thought he had the option to do this without killing any Japanese he would have rather done that thing, but no such option existed.
In all reality he may have saved Japanese lives in dropping the bombs too, as the Japanese military was notorious for fighting to the death to the last man, and executing their own civilians rather than allowing them to fall into enemy control.
To top it off, he probably did not fully understand what the bomb was before it was used.

Paul Jennings Hill: Dog. His perspective was that he was doing this to save innocent children from murder. We can debate the merits of his sanity elsewhere if you like but the underlying principal in his actions was one of perceived justice.

Jefferson Davis: President of the Confederacy, this one is the most interesting as there is some overlapping between dog and wolf. He may have thought he was protecting his people which is a characteristic of a dog, but the reason that his states were seceding was unjust. I'm going to call him a wolf.
The Civil War was fought by the Confederacy over the issue of states rights. The most prominent right of states which they were fighting to defend was slavery, which was exploitative. Treating human beings, or things which exhibit intelligence like human beings as Africans were not considered the same species at the time, is undoubtedly wrong.
Davis was organizing a revolution in large part so that this exploitation could continue and therefore can be considered a wolf.

Robert E. Lee on the other hand, who opposed slavery but fought on the grounds that his states rights were being trampled upon, I would call a dog.
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Re: Dogs, Wolves, and Sheep

Post by Juan_Bottom »

GabonX wrote:In all reality he may have saved Japanese lives in dropping the bombs too, as the Japanese military was notorious for fighting to the death to the last man, and executing their own civilians rather than allowing them to fall into enemy control.

I remember reading a book in high school about the bomb droppings from the Japanese point of view. Complete with the "victims" veiwpoints and experiences. The author (Japanese) also did the math, and came up with the figure that the bombs saved just as many Japanese lives as American ones, if not more. Probably a couple million Japanese would have died in the invasion. I think the US had counted on a million American deaths... again, that's just to invade Japan.


This is not me agreeing with the rest of your post though, lol. Just saying that you were right about the lives saved.
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Re: Dogs, Wolves, and Sheep

Post by Juan_Bottom »

Oh, and before people go off about the bomb, do you know what America's plan was before the bomb was finished? If we didn't have the bomb in time, we were going to release millions of bats with bombs attached to them from planes flying over Japan. We were going to firebomb ever single Japanese city this way. The plan had passed through it's test phase, and was awaiting the "go" from the president. Think about all the people that would have been crying over that one...
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Re: Dogs, Wolves, and Sheep

Post by PLAYER57832 »

Juan_Bottom wrote:
GabonX wrote:In all reality he may have saved Japanese lives in dropping the bombs too, as the Japanese military was notorious for fighting to the death to the last man, and executing their own civilians rather than allowing them to fall into enemy control.

I remember reading a book in high school about the bomb droppings from the Japanese point of view. Complete with the "victims" veiwpoints and experiences. The author (Japanese) also did the math, and came up with the figure that the bombs saved just as many Japanese lives as American ones, if not more. Probably a couple million Japanese would have died in the invasion. I think the US had counted on a million American deaths... again, that's just to invade Japan.


This is not me agreeing with the rest of your post though, lol. Just saying that you were right about the lives saved.


Very good point, one that often gets dismissed by many "after the fact" passivists.
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Re: Dogs, Wolves, and Sheep

Post by GabonX »

Juan_Bottom wrote:Oh, and before people go off about the bomb, do you know what America's plan was before the bomb was finished? If we didn't have the bomb in time, we were going to release millions of bats with bombs attached to them from planes flying over Japan. We were going to firebomb ever single Japanese city this way. The plan had passed through it's test phase, and was awaiting the "go" from the president. Think about all the people that would have been crying over that one...

That is awesome. It's terrible because it's war, and it's funny in an Ed Wood kind of way, but I have to give them props for creativity!
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Re: Dogs, Wolves, and Sheep

Post by Neoteny »

lol at the bomb-bats.

I definitely don't see Hill as a dog, nor do I quite see him as a wolf, because his intentions were sincere under his logic. The source of his data was flawed in my opinion.

But that's not really my point. It doesn't matter how cut and dry you see it, someone else will see it alternatively. Why does that have no bearing on the merit of the analogy.

Here I was thinking I'd finally won this thread...
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Re: Dogs, Wolves, and Sheep

Post by GabonX »

Neoteny wrote:lol at the bomb-bats.

I definitely don't see Hill as a dog, nor do I quite see him as a wolf, because his intentions were sincere under his logic. The source of his data was flawed in my opinion.

But that's not really my point. It doesn't matter how cut and dry you see it, someone else will see it alternatively. Why does that have no bearing on the merit of the analogy.

Here I was thinking I'd finally won this thread...

Sometimes even I get tired of arguing ;)

As for other people seeing things alternatively, not all views are equally valid. This isn't a fact, but rather a model which puts things into perspective.

I have a great fear that American appeasement and this administrations attempt to portray political opposition as radicals is setting the stage for a great war on the home front, foreign or domestic.
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Re: Dogs, Wolves, and Sheep

Post by Neoteny »

It's true that not all views are equally valid, but we've provided pretty much the same proofs for our side of the argument, and what we've come down to is that I think your thought process is in the minority for good reason. It's just does not cohere well enough to the real world. Victory is mine.
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Re: Dogs, Wolves, and Sheep

Post by Neoteny »

That was kind of an extreme example.
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Re: Dogs, Wolves, and Sheep

Post by GabonX »

But one that perfectly illustrates the danger of reckless pacifism and appeasement. It's a chapter of history which is worth trying not to repeat.

There's no reason to think that appeasement won't bring about similar results in the future.
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Re: Dogs, Wolves, and Sheep

Post by comic boy »

GabonX wrote:Most women, in my experience, are sheep.

It seems that at least half of men are as well.


Why do I get the feeling that your 'experience ' with women is rather limited :lol:
Last edited by comic boy on Sun Apr 19, 2009 9:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dogs, Wolves, and Sheep

Post by GabonX »

Because you don't know me in real life

Things could be better for me, but they could be a whole hell of a lot worse too 8-)
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Re: Dogs, Wolves, and Sheep

Post by comic boy »

Well you are a crushing bore here so I assume the same offline....of course all your nonsense may just be trolling
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Re: Dogs, Wolves, and Sheep

Post by GabonX »

This from the guy that doesn't understand how to get an average. I guess most things are boring when things like that are to complicated to understand...

So I take it nobody wants, or is capable, of continuing a real conversation.

Honestly I hate putting myself on the level that I have portrayed in my posts here, but other people's sarcasm has a tendency to drag me down.
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Re: Dogs, Wolves, and Sheep

Post by comic boy »

Yes it is surprising that nobody wants to yap endlessly with a self centred bore :lol:
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Re: Dogs, Wolves, and Sheep

Post by PLAYER57832 »

GabonX wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
GabonX wrote:Most women, in my experience, are sheep.

It seems that at least half of men are as well.


The key words there are "in your experience".

Also... there is an old saying about Men and power and women and power.. but if you haven't heard it ... leave it to someone else to educate you. (as in, your future wife)

Marriage is broken. More than half end in divorce and we can't even seem to agree on what the definition should be.

Honestly, I don't see how marriage benefits a man in modern society unless it's his only way to secure sexual gratification.

It probably is for some, but I don't have the overwhelming urge to give a woman claim to take atleast half of the results of my labor and then to continue to demand some sort of alimony living payment.

I didn't say a thing about marriage. But your answer says a lot about your perception of women, and very, very little about real women.
Last edited by PLAYER57832 on Sun Apr 19, 2009 9:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dogs, Wolves, and Sheep

Post by GabonX »

comic boy wrote:Yes it is surprising that nobody wants to yap endlessly with a self centred bore :lol:

Especially when they have an irrefuted argument based on facts.

Best thing to do in that case is to just ignore it right? Wouldn't want to have any new perspectives or anything...
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Re: Dogs, Wolves, and Sheep

Post by GabonX »

PLAYER57832 wrote:
GabonX wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
GabonX wrote:Most women, in my experience, are sheep.

It seems that at least half of men are as well.


The key words there are "in your experience".

Also... there is an old saying about Men and power and women and power.. but if you haven't heard it ... leave it to someone else to educate you. (as in, your future wife)

Marriage is broken. More than half end in divorce and we can't even seem to agree on what the definition should be.

Honestly, I don't see how marriage benefits a man in modern society unless it's his only way to secure sexual gratification.

It probably is for some, but I don't have the overwhelming urge to give a woman claim to take atleast half of the results of my labor and then to continue to demand some sort of alimony living payment.

I didn't say a thing about marriage. But your answer says a lot about your perception of women, and very, very little about real women.

"Your future wife"

Sorry, but it was definitely you that brought up the topic of marriage.

Anyhow, I'm not totally against marriage but there's still too much fun to be had before something like that. I think it makes sense to date liberal women while I'm younger (definitely more fun at this stage of my life 8-) :twisted: ) but then to find a conservative one to marry..You know, someone with values...
Last edited by GabonX on Sun Apr 19, 2009 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dogs, Wolves, and Sheep

Post by comic boy »

PLAYER57832 wrote:
GabonX wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
GabonX wrote:Most women, in my experience, are sheep.

It seems that at least half of men are as well.


The key words there are "in your experience".

Also... there is an old saying about Men and power and women and power.. but if you haven't heard it ... leave it to someone else to educate you. (as in, your future wife)

Marriage is broken. More than half end in divorce and we can't even seem to agree on what the definition should be.

Honestly, I don't see how marriage benefits a man in modern society unless it's his only way to secure sexual gratification.

It probably is for some, but I don't have the overwhelming urge to give a woman claim to take atleast half of the results of my labor and then to continue to demand some sort of alimony living payment.

I didn't say a thing about marriage. But your answer says a lot about your perception of women, and very, very little about real women.


Most women value a sense of humour so he hasn't much of a chance has he :lol:
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Re: Dogs, Wolves, and Sheep

Post by PLAYER57832 »

The thing is that the way you describe power has a lot to do with how many men have historically perceived the world, but very little to to with true effective power. HIstorically, women would often forgo the titles and "glory" for the power behind the scenes. However, recognized or not, they got things done the way they wanted.

That's a pretty stereotypical assessment, but it is true that women and men tend to look at things differently. Far less now that society is equalizing, but when you start talking "sheep, dog, wolves"... you are talking pretty old stereotypes that were misguided even a long time ago.
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Re: Dogs, Wolves, and Sheep

Post by comic boy »

GabonX wrote:
comic boy wrote:Yes it is surprising that nobody wants to yap endlessly with a self centred bore :lol:

Especially when they have an irrefuted argument based on facts.

Best thing to do in that case is to just ignore it right? Wouldn't want to have any new perspectives or anything...


Oh the Irony....it hurts :D
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Re: Dogs, Wolves, and Sheep

Post by GabonX »

comic boy wrote:
Most women value a sense of humour so he hasn't much of a chance has he :lol:

I can rely solely on my good looks. ;)

PLAYER57832 wrote:The thing is that the way you describe power has a lot to do with how many men have historically perceived the world, but very little to to with true effective power. HIstorically, women would often forgo the titles and "glory" for the power behind the scenes. However, recognized or not, they got things done the way they wanted.

That's a pretty stereotypical assessment, but it is true that women and men tend to look at things differently. Far less now that society is equalizing, but when you start talking "sheep, dog, wolves"... you are talking pretty old stereotypes that were misguided even a long time ago.

This needs a bit more development, but you have my attention.

I still hold that the analogy stands, but I will admit that women have a way of.. controlling men that men do not have with each other...
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Re: Dogs, Wolves, and Sheep

Post by PLAYER57832 »

Its the old fable of the lion and the mouse. Strength and obvert power are not always the best way to really get things done.

(and no.. I actually don't mean just or even primarily s-e-x).
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Re: Dogs, Wolves, and Sheep

Post by GabonX »

Don't underestimate the power of a woman's sex appeal. I do believe there was some connection between this and a number of Russian Cold War victories, not excluding their development of the atom bomb. Power is power and this is one form that some women absolutely have over most men.

I have a lot of respect for Catherine the Great, but I attribute her success to her willingness to act like a man. I'm also impressed by Golda Meir, but it's notable that David Ben Gurion called her "the only man in my Cabinet."

Anyhow, what specifically are you talking about?
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