Conquer Club

Frigidus wrote:This argument has always seemed so strange to me. Making a parallel to real life we be like saying the government can do whatever it wants because, hey, we don't own the country. If we don't like it, get out. Not the soundest logic. One might say, "But Frigidus, we came here of our own volition. It's not like we were forced into this." So, does that mean that the immigrant to this theoretical country doesn't matter because they weren't there in the first place? Should they not rock the boat and leave their ideas and opinions back home? Hardly. Another argument might go something like, "But Frigidus, the owners of this site don't have to run this site. They're doing us a favor just by not deleting the forum and being done with it!" Sorry, but I don't tend to see why I should be eternally grateful to the guys making a ridiculous amount of money off a website they made for fun just because I frequent their forum.

The bottom line of my point is that sure, they can make my forum experience less enjoyable and treat me like I don't matter, but does this mean that we should just say "they're within their rights to be douche bags, let them be"? Certainly not.

That's not what I said.

The fact is that they do not owe us this forum. That is a fact.

The fact is there are very few people that frequent this forum. When a very small group of people demand a lot of attention, one option is to silence them.

Nobody is asking you to be eternally grateful. But don't think that because you cough-up $25 a year to be able to play more than 4 games at a time gives you the power to run this forum.

Lucky for you, moving to another Internet forum is not as difficult as moving to another country.

Look, the rules are here. I don't think they are going to be changed with such a non-professional approach.

The way I see it, is you have 3 options:

1) Deal with it as it is. Understand that the mods might be a little inconsistent and make some mistakes.
2) Leave and frequent a forum that has rules that you like more.
3) Change your approach if you really want changes. Start by opening a dialogue with someone in authority. Blasting them with 5 pages of complaining is not going to be very successful. That's my opinion at least.

TheProwler wrote:3) Change your approach if you really want changes. Start by opening a dialogue with someone in authority. Blasting them with 5 pages of complaining is not going to be very successful. That's my opinion at least.

I did, I sent really quite arse-kissy PMs to CC's very own elite. Nothing back yet.

Also, it's not complaining. It's constructive criticism and a few requests.

I 'm not insulting any mods.

They do do a difficult job well.

Some people have the opinion that they could do it slightly differently. Including me.

We've said so. This is not a heinous act.

Me, I've never been banned or warned. One thread was moved to "Forum games", very farily I thought, though I didn't really see the point. Several threads I've been enjoying as participant or reader have been locked, sometimes justly so, more often for no real apparent reason.

Sometimes threads are locked when they appear to me at least to be doing nothing more than enjoying a little gentle fun. I don't see the need for this. (The locking I mean, not the fun).

IN addition to this, every so often there will be "back on topic, guys" warning - which I also see little need for: it is the nature of this particular forum that we are essentially chatting.

If it were a debating society, I might start by proposing "This Forum believes that God was created in Man's image" or some such. I'd expected a fair overseer to censor anyone wandering off into the differences between English English and American English, or the mating habits of penguins.

But it's not a debating society. Just as in a real-life conversation, it's quite natural to start out calling attention to a news article about about a political candidate, and several pages later be debating which form of "football" is "real", or whether we should wear tinfoil hats when viewing U-toob. That's what happens when a large number of people sit down and chat.

Topics may also be locked because they are created for the express purpose of making a play on words from the title of another topic. Fair enough, I suppose, but a waste of effort. These topics will drift off the front page and be forgottten quickly anyhow - highlighting their silliness only means that more are like to follow.

heavycola wrote:OK, it was perhaps a little strong, but i can't see any problem with the request itself. I would define this collection of freaks and geeks a community, and who would argue that communities shouldn't be permitted a degree of self-determination?

I understand your point.

If the management wants a certain type of community, and the "people" want a different type of community, there are two ways to go:

A - Management changes its definition of the type of community it wants.
B - Or management waits until the current group of people conform or leave. And wait for a new group of people to arrive who are more agreeable to the set of rules.

Or there could be some compromise.

heavycola wrote:Anyway, like I said, it will be ignored. There'll be another one along in a few months' time.

So maybe it is time for a new approach.

This thread might be considered a good start. But this is not how you want to present your request to the management. You need to gather people's ideas. Be open to debate and be flexible in your thoughts. Summarize the information and come to an agreement of what will be proposed to the management.

Then a representative needs to be selected. Someone with good rapport with the management. Someone who is intelligent and understands how to communicate effectively. That means listening as well as speaking.

Then this representative would need to try to begin exchanging thoughts and ideas with management. He/she might be privy to some of the thoughts and objectives and situations that the management does not normally make public. If this happens, a level of confidentiality might be necessary. Working together, this representative, along with the management, might be able to formulate changes that are agreeable to both sides. Positive changes can be made.

Alternately, a small group of the community could be selected. Possibly a private forum could be created to discuss the issues with management. The infrastructure for this is already in-place - a clan could be formed that includes management and the representatives from the community.

I am not against change.

I am against inefficient, premature, and ineffective protests.

jonesthecurl wrote:Just as in a real-life conversation, it's quite natural to start out calling attention to a news article about about a political candidate, and several pages later be debating which form of "football" is "real", or whether we should wear tinfoil hats when viewing U-toob. That's what happens when a large number of people sit down and chat.

So if we have a thread for every topic, and every topic in it's thread in this forum, should we also have a tab for every topic, and a topic for every tab in the Live Chat?
You claim this is "people chatting" instead of a more strictly run forum, and market forces will move stupid topics to the bottom? Your arguments sound very much like my arguments against the police officers. They should protect and serve, instead of writing parking tickets etc...Worry about the big stuff like violence and theft etc. So the mods should worry about the big stuff like all the "isms" instead of the small stuff like "back on topic"?

jiminski wrote:The site is deathly silent ... something is afoot! I reckon it is revving-up to telling us that the New Classic is keeping the Gameplay but is now to be based around a map of Birmingham Alabama City Centre, to avoid copyright infringement. ... there will be some lovely fall-out to come i am sure.

Jimbob, if you said Birmingham, England. now that would of been funny, with the spaghetti junction incorporated in it. nightmare.

without getting into the discussion,

/signed.

fwliw, /sign

We've got a serious forum now anyway. Signed.

bedub1 wrote:

jonesthecurl wrote:Just as in a real-life conversation, it's quite natural to start out calling attention to a news article about about a political candidate, and several pages later be debating which form of "football" is "real", or whether we should wear tinfoil hats when viewing U-toob. That's what happens when a large number of people sit down and chat.

So if we have a thread for every topic, and every topic in it's thread in this forum, should we also have a tab for every topic, and a topic for every tab in the Live Chat?
You claim this is "people chatting" instead of a more strictly run forum, and market forces will move stupid topics to the bottom? Your arguments sound very much like my arguments against the police officers. They should protect and serve, instead of writing parking tickets etc...Worry about the big stuff like violence and theft etc. So the mods should worry about the big stuff like all the "isms" instead of the small stuff like "back on topic"?

Couldn't comment on Lie Chat, I'e never wandered in there - but otherwise, I think you have the gist of what I mean. Also, someone else mentined consistency - for instance, I understans someone was banned for using the word "beaner" (I'm not sure how offensive that is, folks - I've never encountered it eslewhere) - but suggestions that Indians "get a blanket" were ignored, despite a protest.

Frigidus wrote:

TheProwler wrote:I'd like to comment on a thought that has been conveyed in several of the posts in this thread. It is the idea that Conquer Club somehow owes us this Forum to enjoy as we "the majority" sees fit. This expression of the feeling of entitlement is humourous to observe. The way I see it is that Conquer Club provides these forums as a courtesy. To be able to publicly talk about the game is a great idea. But this forum in particular is meant to be a place to talk about "Off-topics". They certainly do not owe us this forum. Stir up enough controversy and I would not be surprised to see the management drop this forum altogether.

This argument has always seemed so strange to me. Making a parallel to real life we be like saying the government can do whatever it wants because, hey, we don't own the country. If we don't like it, get out. Not the soundest logic. One might say, "But Frigidus, we came here of our own volition. It's not like we were forced into this." So, does that mean that the immigrant to this theoretical country doesn't matter because they weren't there in the first place? Should they not rock the boat and leave their ideas and opinions back home? Hardly. Another argument might go something like, "But Frigidus, the owners of this site don't have to run this site. They're doing us a favor just by not deleting the forum and being done with it!" Sorry, but I don't tend to see why I should be eternally grateful to the guys making a ridiculous amount of money off a website they made for fun just because I frequent their forum.

The bottom line of my point is that sure, they can make my forum experience less enjoyable and treat me like I don't matter, but does this mean that we should just say "they're within their rights to be douche bags, let them be"? Certainly not.

We do own the country, but we don't own this site. The country belongs to the people. And there you've hit on the issue, or rather looked at it then stepped to the side: this forum is not a country.

Would you hang out in a coffee shop (a business, that you don't own), but then get mad at the owners for not staying open as late as you'd like? After all, you are a customer. If you kept arguing with the employees about this, to where it was a hindrance to their job, wouldn't they have a right to kick you out?

Ditocoaf wrote:Would you hang out in a coffee shop (a business, that you don't own), but then get mad at the owners for not staying open as late as you'd like? After all, you are a customer. If you kept arguing with the employees about this, to where it was a hindrance to their job, wouldn't they have a right to kick you out?

False analogy. The "staying open as late as you like" would be better associated with objecting to new features not being added in the context of this site, while the keeping arguing is similar to deliberate trolling/multi attacks. On the contrary, this is like going to your coffee shop, where they inconsistently kick out or inconvenience customers who are eating/drinking in on apparent whims for ill-defined rules - and threads like these the equivalent of filling out those "complaints/comments" things they have, and getting a little irritated by lack of response.

The1exile wrote:

Ditocoaf wrote:Would you hang out in a coffee shop (a business, that you don't own), but then get mad at the owners for not staying open as late as you'd like? After all, you are a customer. If you kept arguing with the employees about this, to where it was a hindrance to their job, wouldn't they have a right to kick you out?

False analogy. The "staying open as late as you like" would be better associated with objecting to new features not being added in the context of this site, while the keeping arguing is similar to deliberate trolling/multi attacks. On the contrary, this is like going to your coffee shop, where they inconsistently kick out or inconvenience customers who are eating/drinking in on apparent whims for ill-defined rules - and threads like these the equivalent of filling out those "complaints/comments" things they have, and getting a little irritated by lack of response.

True, I misapplied part of the analogy, and I agree with your correction.

It is like they're kicking people out of their store, or telling them to quiet down. Making someone shush wasn't necessary, and many of the people didn't deserve to be kicked out... but they still have the right to do so. And normally, by treating people unfairly (which, I agree, they often do) they'd lose some business. But they make such good coffee, that people keep coming back. Most customers just buy their coffee and leave (people who don't visit the forums, but just play); it's only the people who hang out in the lounge area (the forums) who even notice. But we still come back because they aren't too unfair, and because we like to hang out with the other regulars.

And I think filling out a complaint/comment thing would probably be an e-ticket. This is more like just talking directly to the employees, albeit in the form of a formal complaint. They'll probably ignore us, since we didn't fill out the official "form" for them to ignore.

But the main thing is, they have every right to run their business however they want. If it was really that bad, we'd all leave and go to that other risk site. But this place has better coffee, and we still, on the most part, enjoy hanging out in the lounge.


...and, because I'm really enjoying this metaphor: freemiums are eating and drinking the free samples!

Ditocoaf wrote:And I think filling out a complaint/comment thing would probably be an e-ticket. This is more like just talking directly to the employees, albeit in the form of a formal complaint. They'll probably ignore us, since we didn't fill out the official "form" for them to ignore.

I suppose you could be right, but I'd still think that PMs to admins/mods would be a reasonable equivalent to the comment/complain form metaphor - maybe it would be better to consider it as a letter to the management, but that would really be because e-tickets doesn't have a "complaints/comments" section.

Ditocoaf wrote:But the main thing is, they have every right to run their business however they want. If it was really that bad, we'd all leave and go to that other risk site. But this place has better coffee, and we still, on the most part, enjoy hanging out in the lounge.

But less because of the state of the lounge than because of the people who inhabit it. Increasingly I don't come to this site for risk as anything more than a minor distraction and excuse to buzz around the forums (though I've still paid up, which suggests that CC is by nature not so much of a consumer based enterprise as a coffee shop).

Ditocoaf wrote:...and, because I'm really enjoying this metaphor: freemiums are eating and drinking the free samples!

tangentially related, the guardian was offering free coffee at starbucks today with every copy, which was nice - especially since I got 15% off thanks to mates employee discount at sainsbury's, making it 68p for a liberal broadsheet and a £3.30 coffee. Score

[quote=The1exile]

Ditocoaf wrote:But the main thing is, they have every right to run their business however they want. If it was really that bad, we'd all leave and go to that other risk site. But this place has better coffee, and we still, on the most part, enjoy hanging out in the lounge.

But less because of the state of the lounge than because of the people who inhabit it. Increasingly I don't come to this site for risk as anything more than a minor distraction and excuse to buzz around the forums (though I've still paid up, which suggests that CC is by nature not so much of a consumer based enterprise as a coffee shop).[/quote]
It seems we've come to essentially agree. I also barely engage in any conquering; but I don't really feel ripped off for my premium, because it introduced me to a great place to hang out. For us, it's not about the coffee (the consumer-based enterprise), it's about the location. I bought the year's supply of the product, but I don't really use it much anymore. It just helps as an excuse to sit at the tables and talk with the other customers.

...sorry, I know a metaphor can be taken too far. But it's not like we don't use RL metaphors extensively, while online.

Agreed, agreed even before I saw this XD

It's not the coffee.....


It's the Soup!!

The1exile wrote:

Ditocoaf wrote:And I think filling out a complaint/comment thing would probably be an e-ticket. This is more like just talking directly to the employees, albeit in the form of a formal complaint. They'll probably ignore us, since we didn't fill out the official "form" for them to ignore.

I suppose you could be right, but I'd still think that PMs to admins/mods would be a reasonable equivalent to the comment/complain form metaphor - maybe it would be better to consider it as a letter to the management, but that would really be because e-tickets doesn't have a "complaints/comments" section.

Ditocoaf wrote:But the main thing is, they have every right to run their business however they want. If it was really that bad, we'd all leave and go to that other risk site. But this place has better coffee, and we still, on the most part, enjoy hanging out in the lounge.

But less because of the state of the lounge than because of the people who inhabit it. Increasingly I don't come to this site for risk as anything more than a minor distraction and excuse to buzz around the forums (though I've still paid up, which suggests that CC is by nature not so much of a consumer based enterprise as a coffee shop).

Ditocoaf wrote:...and, because I'm really enjoying this metaphor: freemiums are eating and drinking the free samples!

tangentially related, the guardian was offering free coffee at starbucks today with every copy, which was nice - especially since I got 15% off thanks to mates employee discount at sainsbury's, making it 68p for a liberal broadsheet and a £3.30 coffee. Score

While you're up, exile, can you get me a mocha?

Ditocoaf wrote:[quote=The1exile]

Ditocoaf wrote:But the main thing is, they have every right to run their business however they want. If it was really that bad, we'd all leave and go to that other risk site. But this place has better coffee, and we still, on the most part, enjoy hanging out in the lounge.

But less because of the state of the lounge than because of the people who inhabit it. Increasingly I don't come to this site for risk as anything more than a minor distraction and excuse to buzz around the forums (though I've still paid up, which suggests that CC is by nature not so much of a consumer based enterprise as a coffee shop).

It seems we've come to essentially agree. I also barely engage in any conquering; but I don't really feel ripped off for my premium, because it introduced me to a great place to hang out. For us, it's not about the coffee (the consumer-based enterprise), it's about the location. I bought the year's supply of the product, but I don't really use it much anymore. It just helps as an excuse to sit at the tables and talk with the other customers.

...sorry, I know a metaphor can be taken too far. But it's not like we don't use RL metaphors extensively, while online.[/quote]


you're not wrong lad, i'm spending a lot less time in the forums, as there is a lot less to reply to.

I just looked at this, signed. I think they should just have a more loose environment in NYB. If someone really has it coming, vigilante justice is usually imposed anyway. They should have a real reason for a long forum ban. Consistent spam shouldn't be one, if it's mild and nobody really minds it. And those who get borderline flamed outside of FW a lot mostly bring it on themselves.

I'll sign it and say just one thing. I'm sure most of the community would love to have meaningful discussion with the administration instead of bitching/whining/complaining every time a thread is locked. The problem is that the administration is not even open to such. Sure, it's well within their right to act however the hell they want, but so is it our right as members of the community to make comments on how we feel about the administration.

This thread was not made because we hate the mods, but because we enjoy the community and want to make it more enjoyable for the greatest number of people. I don't think constructive criticism is an inappropriate channel for this notion as some people in this thread are seeming to imply.

F1fth wrote:I don't think constructive criticism is an inappropriate channel for this notion as some people in this thread are seeming to imply.

You either know how to get things done, or you don't.

If your goal is just to let off some steam but not promote positive change, this type of thread works well.

If your goal is to actually influence a change to the way the mods supervise this forum, this type of thread is ineffective.

There is no need to be defensive about your intentions or your actions. I am simply letting you know that there is almost no chance of this type of thread having a positive influence on the mods.

TheProwler wrote:

F1fth wrote:I don't think constructive criticism is an inappropriate channel for this notion as some people in this thread are seeming to imply.

You either know how to get things done, or you don't.

If your goal is just to let off some steam but not promote positive change, this type of thread works well.

If your goal is to actually influence a change to the way the mods supervise this forum, this type of thread is ineffective.

There is no need to be defensive about your intentions or your actions. I am simply letting you know that there is almost no chance of this type of thread having a positive influence on the mods.

Yes, we all know it's not going to work. It's been demonstrated time and time again that the mods will just ignore any attempt for community dialogue (which in the end is all we really ask) no matter what kind of attempt is made and no matter how positive or constructive or helpful or friendly or reasonable it is.

This will not change until the staff decides that it's what they want. All we can do is keep reminding them that the invitation for discussion is open, (which things like petitions do nicely, showing solidarity) and wait for them to realize that they can have their cake and eat it too. Ineffective? Perhaps. Do it hurt to try? Not at all. Are there any better alternatives? You tell me.

TheProwler wrote:

F1fth wrote:I don't think constructive criticism is an inappropriate channel for this notion as some people in this thread are seeming to imply.

You either know how to get things done, or you don't.

If your goal is just to let off some steam but not promote positive change, this type of thread works well.

If your goal is to actually influence a change to the way the mods supervise this forum, this type of thread is ineffective.

There is no need to be defensive about your intentions or your actions. I am simply letting you know that there is almost no chance of this type of thread having a positive influence on the mods.

As i said, I sent PMs to twill and clapper without any swearing or nonsense or anything, just a polite question or two and some hope of opening of a bit of dialogue. I have had not a peep back, which strikes me as pretty rude.

So if threads and PMs don't apparently merit any sort of response, what next? Carrier pigeon? Smoke signals?

Ditocoaf wrote:But the main thing is, they have every right to run their business however they want. If it was really that bad, we'd all leave and go to that other risk site. But this place has better coffee, and we still, on the most part, enjoy hanging out in the lounge.

It is not about whether they can do this, but whether they should.