Conquer Club

PLAYER57832 wrote:

suggs wrote:True. For example, I don't believe it is "just" to let millions pf people to live in squalor and poverty.
God obviously thinks it is cool, cos he's done bugger all to fix that. Maybe he's just warming up, maybe his plan is mysterious, after all , whats a few more millions of deaths -as long as its God's jutice, then it must be ok.

No, it means that he thinks the steps necessary to prevent it are worse than letting these things happen.


Remember the old stories of the wish? Someone asks for "peace on earth" ... and gets a world devoid of people. Someone asks for their son to come back to life ... and he comes back, exactly as he was just prior to actual death after a motorcycle crash.

We humans are notorious for wanting things that seem perfectly reasonable at the time, but are not. Sometimes , even our idea of "justice" can be arbitrary. Take that recent theme where a guy has to do all kinds of criminal stuff if he wants his son alive. Would most folks consider a gaurd wrong to shoot a bank robber? Would he shoot if he knew the guy was robbing only to save his son? What really is justice in this instance? Ask a hundred people and you will get close to 100 different answers.

Our ideas of justice are limited to what we can see and know. God's justice includes all. It can seem cruel to us, just as it seems cruel to my son when I tell him he cannot have a sucker right now, that he has to eat first. Of course, my son will learn before long. WE as humans, will almost certainly never fully understand why God does what he does. We can only believe that there ARE reasons.

OR, as you say, reject him. But ... make no mistake, the decisions are made with or without our consent. Religion just helps some people deal with them.

Blech. That has always seemed a disgusting argument to me. It cries out for eternal repercussions that do nothing for the here and now.

PLAYER57832 wrote:Our ideas of justice are limited to what we can see and know. God's justice includes all. It can seem cruel to us, just as it seems cruel to my son when I tell him he cannot have a sucker right now, that he has to eat first.

Bad analogy. You lack the ability to make your son not have to eat, so you employ the carrot method, stick optional, to make him do so - for his own benefit, yes. We presume, given at least that you responded to suggs' comment of "he's done bugger all" without saying that maybe he can't, that God has the ability to remove the requirements. Similarly, we presume that in your wish story, were it God who were granting the wish, the peace on earth story could have been done perfectly well with a change to human impulses to fight, rather than the (probably more practical) genocidal version. Basically, we think God can and would make the outcome we want happen without doing something relatively stupid in the process - and he doesn't.

The1exile wrote:

PLAYER57832 wrote:Our ideas of justice are limited to what we can see and know. God's justice includes all. It can seem cruel to us, just as it seems cruel to my son when I tell him he cannot have a sucker right now, that he has to eat first.

Bad analogy. You lack the ability to make your son not have to eat, so you employ the carrot method, stick optional, to make him do so - for his own benefit, yes.
We presume, given at least that you responded to suggs' comment of "he's done bugger all" without saying that maybe he can't, that God has the ability to remove the requirements.

False presumption. If he were to remove the "requirements", we would no longer be human ... that is the jiist. Do you want to be a happy puppet or animal or a less than perfectly happy human.

Similarly, we presume that in your wish story, were it God who were granting the wish, the peace on earth story could have been done perfectly well with a change to human impulses to fight, rather than the (probably more practical) genocidal version. Basically, we think God can and would make the outcome we want happen without doing something relatively stupid in the process - and he doesn't.

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The words are "we presume" ... you cannot. It is as simplistic as my son no understanding why he cannot have a sucker. That is the analogy ... and it is just that, an approximation of an explanation, something close to help us understand, not a true literal explanation.

Your God is just a despot then. He "knows" better than us, so its ok for millions to live miserable lives, and millions to die young etc etc etc
He's had enough time to come up with a better plan.
f*ck him, time for a new CEO.
Seriously, Player your argument amounts to "jam tomorrow" -not a lot of consolation to the young baby that is being raped AS WE SPEAK, or the grandma being beaten to death AS WE SPEAK.
If God exists, then he's a bungling fool.

suggs wrote:Your God is just a despot then.

Aye. Potentially benevolent, but still ultimate tyrant of everything.

joecoolfrog wrote:Fair enough though I have a sneaky suspion that you privately agree that its not a perfect system, understand though that you cant let the side down If you ever want to become a Frog then let me know coz I get to be the numero uno next year and my salvation policy is going to be watertight

That's cool (no pun intended),


Hi Suggs,

The basic problem here isn't as much God's justice as belief in an afterlife. Even with FabledIntegral's example of Moses and others seeing God's presence. I don't know that I envy Moses. He got a burning bush experience, but it came along with losing his place as an Egyptian prince and, Oh yeah, going head to head with the most powerful man on earth armed with a stick. The prophets were there to spread God's word, but it was rarely fun and had quit the job related mortality rate.

Basically if there is no afterlife then there is no reason to debate the justice of God; it's a package deal. If there is then according to Christendom he's letting everybody in; all you have to do is ask and try to be good. So, what's the problem? Yeah, there might be misery in the world, but how much of it is man's doing rather than God's?

suggs wrote: the young baby that is being raped AS WE SPEAK, or the grandma being beaten to death AS WE SPEAK.

Even natural disasters are finite in duration as they have to be because of our mortality. When compared to eternity in heaven, they aren't that important. Especially when you consider that Christians are doing a lot in the world trying to alleviate that suffering because it's God's command that we love one another as he loved us.

Neoteny wrote:

PLAYER57832 wrote:Our ideas of justice are limited to what we can see and know. God's justice includes all. It can seem cruel to us, just as it seems cruel to my son when I tell him he cannot have a sucker right now, that he has to eat first. Of course, my son will learn before long. WE as humans, will almost certainly never fully understand why God does what he does. We can only believe that there ARE reasons.

OR, as you say, reject him. But ... make no mistake, the decisions are made with or without our consent. Religion just helps some people deal with them.

Blech. That has always seemed a disgusting argument to me. It cries out for eternal repercussions that do nothing for the here and now.

Religion is not always about the "here and now" that is the point. And God is eternal ... that is also the point.

Nothing in human justice is truly "just"... we only try or pretend. Christians believe that God, at least, is truly just in the real sense. That does not mean easy or always "nice", it means that the end result will be what God ordains... and we have faith that that is, ultimately, better for humanity as a whole than the alternatives.



Understanding REAL justice requires understanding the full context. God does. We don't.

suggs wrote:Your God is just a despot then. He "knows" better than us, so its ok for millions to live miserable lives, and millions to die young etc etc etc
He's had enough time to come up with a better plan.

You assume that there IS a "better plan". I am saying that, despite all the ills of this world .. and I certainly do not deny them, it is the "best plan".

suggs wrote:f*ck him, time for a new CEO.
Seriously, Player your argument amounts to "jam tomorrow" -not a lot of consolation to the young baby that is being raped AS WE SPEAK, or the grandma being beaten to death AS WE SPEAK.

It could be that the alternative would keep us from being who we are as human beings ... it might be a choice between keeping us all puppets on strings or letting us go out and make bad (even very, very bad) choices. It might be something more basic. It might be that for good to exist at all there must be evil ... sort of ying and yang, but not quite.

In a practical sense, it might be that those incidence will spur someone on to chane laws, change education, change people around so those terrible things happen far less.

I could probably come up with a 1000 scenerios. But, I don't know that there is a really and truly satisfactory answer. All I know is that we each do the best we can.

I know that if I am happy for the good things in my life I am far better off than worrying about the bad things. I know that if I step outside to help someone in trouble, even if it causes me pain and suffering, harm ... I am better off.

I also know that if I live, as best I can by the precepts of the Bible, my life is better. That is about all I know. And I know many, many do not agree.

If God exists, then he's a bungling fool.

Feel free to take over his job at any time ...

as long as you have the qualifications ..

suggs wrote:Your God is just a despot then. He "knows" better than us, so its ok for millions to live miserable lives, and millions to die young etc etc etc
He's had enough time to come up with a better plan.
f*ck him, time for a new CEO.
Seriously, Player your argument amounts to "jam tomorrow" -not a lot of consolation to the young baby that is being raped AS WE SPEAK, or the grandma being beaten to death AS WE SPEAK.
If God exists, then he's a bungling fool.

Exactly. Hence, non-existence.

But without their invisible "co-pilot" and owners manual, what would the lemmings do? How would they know how to behave?

Backglass wrote:

But without their invisible "co-pilot" and owners manual, what would the lemmings do? How would they know how to behave?

The funny thing is that the "lemmings" and atheists have generally the same sense of right and wrong (with some individual exceptions), but we also have faith and hope for the future.

PLAYER57832 wrote:The funny thing is that the "lemmings" and atheists have generally the same sense of right and wrong (with some individual exceptions), but we also have faith and hope for the future.

We also share faith and hope for the future? or do you mean that "lemmings" (OK, pejorative term, but since we're running with it...) have it and atheists don't?

Backglass wrote:But without their invisible "co-pilot" and owners manual, what would the lemmings do? How would they know how to behave?

We're all running for the same cliff, Christians are just trying to teach people to swim.

CrazyAnglican wrote:

Backglass wrote:But without their invisible "co-pilot" and owners manual, what would the lemmings do? How would they know how to behave?

We're all running for the same cliff, Christians are just trying to teach people to swim.

LOL, good response!

Yep, sounds clever!
Pity it doesn't mean anything.
Gosh they are insecure, aren't they, those cult guys who worship that Jew.

The1exile wrote:

PLAYER57832 wrote:The funny thing is that the "lemmings" and atheists have generally the same sense of right and wrong (with some individual exceptions), but we also have faith and hope for the future.

We also share faith and hope for the future? or do you mean that "lemmings" (OK, pejorative term, but since we're running with it...) have it and atheists don't?

Generally, Christians think further in the future than atheists.

PLAYER57832 wrote:

The1exile wrote:

PLAYER57832 wrote:The funny thing is that the "lemmings" and atheists have generally the same sense of right and wrong (with some individual exceptions), but we also have faith and hope for the future.

We also share faith and hope for the future? or do you mean that "lemmings" (OK, pejorative term, but since we're running with it...) have it and atheists don't?

Generally, Christians think further in the future than atheists.

Huh?


That sounds rather like a great big fat lie.

If the God you talk about above told us what to do all the time and controlled our actions by intervention (such as taking sides in a war or stopping the drunk from driving and possibly killing someone..ect) then he'd be considered a 'strict' parent and we'd all rebel against him anyway (reminds me of the adam and eve story - paying consequences for bad behaviour or unacceptable behaviour)-

Like I said in my previous post...God is within - we are the truth that we seek, it is in ourselves and was there all along, it is us who chose to or chose
not to, and did rather than didn't. God is everything, it is the air, the trees and the universe- the truth is in front of us; if you choose to see it (or not to)- well that's up to you.

Snorri1234 wrote:

PLAYER57832 wrote:

The1exile wrote:

PLAYER57832 wrote:The funny thing is that the "lemmings" and atheists have generally the same sense of right and wrong (with some individual exceptions), but we also have faith and hope for the future.

We also share faith and hope for the future? or do you mean that "lemmings" (OK, pejorative term, but since we're running with it...) have it and atheists don't?

Generally, Christians think further in the future than atheists.

Huh?


That sounds rather like a great big fat lie.

Well, if you don't believe in an afterlife ...

But seriously, you believe or you don't. I am happy to talk, but have no illusions that I will somehow convince anyone that I am right and they are "wrong". Besides ... I am not sure you can even seperate things out that way so clearly.

PLAYER57832 wrote:

The1exile wrote:

PLAYER57832 wrote:The funny thing is that the "lemmings" and atheists have generally the same sense of right and wrong (with some individual exceptions), but we also have faith and hope for the future.

We also share faith and hope for the future? or do you mean that "lemmings" (OK, pejorative term, but since we're running with it...) have it and atheists don't?

Generally, Christians think further in the future than atheists.

Utter twaddle. You've met all of both sets?

PLAYER57832 wrote:

Snorri1234 wrote:

PLAYER57832 wrote:

The1exile wrote:

PLAYER57832 wrote:The funny thing is that the "lemmings" and atheists have generally the same sense of right and wrong (with some individual exceptions), but we also have faith and hope for the future.

We also share faith and hope for the future? or do you mean that "lemmings" (OK, pejorative term, but since we're running with it...) have it and atheists don't?

Generally, Christians think further in the future than atheists.

Huh?


That sounds rather like a great big fat lie.

Well, if you don't believe in an afterlife ...

Afterlife is not the future.

It might be there or it might not be there, but it is entirely seperate from "thinking in the future".

protectedbygold wrote:

CrazyAnglican wrote:

Backglass wrote:But without their invisible "co-pilot" and owners manual, what would the lemmings do? How would they know how to behave?

We're all running for the same cliff, Christians are just trying to teach people to swim.

LOL, good response!

Thanks.

suggs wrote:Yep, sounds clever!

Thanks.

suggs wrote:Pity it doesn't mean anything.
Gosh they are insecure, aren't they, those cult guys who worship that Jew.

Guess meaning anything is up to you, but I tell ya' everybody gets credit for security just by coming tothe Chatterbox more than once.

So CrazyAnglican, if you don't mind sharing a little more. Why did you decide that Jesus was the answer to life's great questions? You should know that I talk a little with a group of believers so I enjoy hearing their answers. But none of them has been able to satisfactorily answer some of the more difficult ones I pose. I don't claim to have the answer to God's existence but I tend to not believe in his existence. Don't worry, I'm not like the majority of people here who will scream at you and say you're full of shit.

Snorri1234 wrote:Afterlife is not the future.

It might be there or it might not be there, but it is entirely seperate from "thinking in the future".

Assuming you're alive, "after-life" is future by definition isn't it?


Hi protectedbygold,

Fire away with any questions you'd like,

CrazyAnglican wrote:

Snorri1234 wrote:Afterlife is not the future.

It might be there or it might not be there, but it is entirely seperate from "thinking in the future".

Assuming you're alive, "after-life" is future by definition isn't it?

It's not a future you need to think or worry about though. It's not like thinking about what happens a hundred years from now, as the afterlife (assuming it exists) is unchanging and eternal. You're not actually thinking about the future but about what happens after that, or more accurately along with it.

Your future is what will happen to you untill you die, everything after that happening to you is nothing.

PLAYER57832 wrote:

The1exile wrote:

PLAYER57832 wrote:The funny thing is that the "lemmings" and atheists have generally the same sense of right and wrong (with some individual exceptions), but we also have faith and hope for the future.

We also share faith and hope for the future? or do you mean that "lemmings" (OK, pejorative term, but since we're running with it...) have it and atheists don't?

Generally, Christians think further in the future than atheists.

What a load of bullshit. That's an absurd statement.

Case in point.

http://raptureready.com/