EW's Semi-Open Matrix Madness

[DirtyDishSoap]

One: I feel attacked.

Two: Can scum choose not to kill or does a random town die regardless of that decision?

[Votanic]

There is only 1 kill per night in this setup, regardless of the matrix. If no kill is sent in by the mafia team, I will randomly choose a town member to kill but this should never happen given the time people will have to decide on an action.

Gee, if a townie PR flakes off and forgets to perform his role will you also step in for town's benefit?

[Charle]

LOL Vot, I don't even thing EW is going to answer that

[Charle]

thing = think above

[pmchugh]

If Loose has done similar as town in previous games, I can withdraw my FOS which was based on him doing this as mafia last game. I do think it makes little to no sense but anyway.

DDS seems to have gotten more serious more quickly this game.

[*Pixar*]

If Loose has done similar as town in previous games, I can withdraw my FOS which was based on him doing this as mafia last game. I do think it makes little to no sense but anyway.

DDS seems to have gotten more serious more quickly this game.

I don't think I have seen Loose as a townie

[Loose Canon]

Every game I've played I've suggested D1 what I think is best for town.
Even when scum or 3p.
I was town in the tick.

Currently I do believe with this game set up what I'm suggesting is best for town too, and you can see I will fight my corner for what I believe.

Argue against with reasoning please - that's all I ask.

[Extreme Ways]

One: I feel attacked.

Two: Can scum choose not to kill or does a random town die regardless of that decision?

Random town dies regardless of that decision

@Vot serious answer is that you can choose not to use your PR which doesn't impact the game. Not nightkilling someone makes a doctor/jailkeeper/roleblocker think they impacted the game and wrongly scum or clear someone. I want to remove bastard elements.

[pmchugh]

Every game I've played I've suggested D1 what I think is best for town.
Even when scum or 3p.
I was town in the tick.

Currently I do believe with this game set up what I'm suggesting is best for town too, and you can see I will fight my corner for what I believe.

Argue against with reasoning please - that's all I ask.

Fine.

Let's do a pros and cons list

Pros of your idea
1. We know what actions people took even if they die without saying (and can speculate on the result)
2. Town could trick mafia, by not following your strategy when they said they would. Note; this invalidates 1.

Cons
1. People have to use their power sub optimally. They don't pick the person they think is scum for tracking or jailing, but a random they might suspect is innocent, they protect someone who mafia have no intention to kill, they block an obvious townie, etc.
2. Mafia can predict town actions and utilise it to their advantage, you would know who can't be protect who can't be investigated based on who is dead and who is mafia
3. If the Town PRs do not agree, then number 1 pro is invalidated

It just seems clear cut bad. It forces sub optimal power usage for a chance that you might be able to clear people based on speculation of what results they got while giving mafia full information on what town are doing.

[DirtyDishSoap]

[Loose Canon]

Every game I've played I've suggested D1 what I think is best for town.
Even when scum or 3p.
I was town in the tick.

Currently I do believe with this game set up what I'm suggesting is best for town too, and you can see I will fight my corner for what I believe.

Argue against with reasoning please - that's all I ask.

Fine.

Let's do a pros and cons list

Pros of your idea
1. We know what actions people took even if they die without saying (and can speculate on the result)
2. Town could trick mafia, by not following your strategy when they said they would. Note; this invalidates 1.

Cons
1. People have to use their power sub optimally. They don't pick the person they think is scum for tracking or jailing, but a random they might suspect is innocent, they protect someone who mafia have no intention to kill, they block an obvious townie, etc.
2. Mafia can predict town actions and utilise it to their advantage, you would know who can't be protect who can't be investigated based on who is dead and who is mafia
3. If the Town PRs do not agree, then number 1 pro is invalidated

It just seems clear cut bad. It forces sub optimal power usage for a chance that you might be able to clear people based on speculation of what results they got while giving mafia full information on what town are doing.

Thanks PM I will answer as follows;

1. Re no1 con
Mafia can talk day and night in this set up (and they probably are at least where they see a danger light)
(they might just be saying to each other say more or shut the f up at the moment - who knows - but they will be ready to spring into a volume of chat I can assure you of that
from just the night chat I was party to in the last game)
Town therefore has to assume what mafia are saying is as unreadable as the most unreadable of the 4 mafia players.
Therefore each individual Town Power player would have to be better at reading scum tells than the best of the 4 mafia players are at disguising the tells.
Random selection is probably better than tell/instinct selection early on.

(Also consider is it necessarily a bad thing if the Town Power Roles don't discover anything N1.
Yes they should disclose ASAP if they find something.
But might it not possibly be better if they investigated but didn't find anything N1 but did on N2 and lived to D3 to reveal?)

2. How do you think Mafia can predict town actions from what I am proposing?

I mean I don't think they actually can but maybe someone can explain how they can.

3. Yes I agree no1 pro is invalidated if town PRs do not act on the suggestion.
I can't do anything about that except refer them to my counter argument to your No1 con.
ie Random but Systematic determination of who to use power on is in this scenario set up superior to judgement method.

I would like to address another possible ways of town power roles deciding what to do - which would be targetting who they judge to be the MVPs (from past experience).
To me this would be the most difficult argument to counter.
(I do trust that roles were given out by random selection in this game but that is neither here nor there)
I think in all honesty my argument rests that there are a lot of valuable players and even if we can get down to just 2 scum - the day chat scum feature will make even the least valuable scum more a lot more valuable than they otherwise would be.

Another thing occurs to me which is isn't Random but Systematic determination taking some fun out of the game.
The thing here is that come D3 onwards or at least once the first sum is detected/eliminated remaining town players are going to have to switch hats and go by other skills to win.

Town in my view needs to start systematically but unreadably initially in how it goes about targetting - in THIS particular game set up.

[Votanic]

Finally!! Some flavour...


I call Cheshire Cat

[kongming3]

I will just say that if I hypothetically was a town PR, I would not follow the system you devised.

[Devante]

I will also say, as I'm not a town PR, hypothetically, I would also not go for this nonsense. Let's make a road map for the scum guys, genius. I have never seen someone try to get themselves killed day 1 as much as you LC. I am doubling down on my vote

[DirtyDishSoap]

I'm the SK. Hypothetically, scum should announce their roles, so we can then discuss how they should use their not random killing town power. Hypothetically, it would also be to towns benefit if scum kill Loose immediately for hypotheticals. Hypothetically of course

[DirtyDishSoap]

Sigh, the day ends with a lynch regardless right? So I'm being forced to conform to your ways, is that it?! HUH?!

Unvote my joke vote.

Vote PMC. Mainly for the early attempt of Town cred with a list that's all too early to tell who is who.

This also may or may not be because he killed me in another game. I got your name too Charle! I DO NOT FORGET

[DirtyDishSoap]

Unvote Vote PMC

[pmchugh]

I will also say, as I'm not a town PR, hypothetically, I would also not go for this nonsense. Let's make a road map for the scum guys, genius. I have never seen someone try to get themselves killed day 1 as much as you LC. I am doubling down on my vote

Why are you claiming? Do not claim for no reason.

[pmchugh]

1. Re no1 con
Mafia can talk day and night in this set up (and they probably are at least where they see a danger light)
(they might just be saying to each other say more or shut the f up at the moment - who knows - but they will be ready to spring into a volume of chat I can assure you of that
from just the night chat I was party to in the last game)
Town therefore has to assume what mafia are saying is as unreadable as the most unreadable of the 4 mafia players.
Therefore each individual Town Power player would have to be better at reading scum tells than the best of the 4 mafia players are at disguising the tells.
Random selection is probably better than tell/instinct selection early on.

Mafia can't just post as well as the best mafia player, they must retain their own identities. Imagine dev starts being controlled by Votanic, or DDS tries to control me, it would be jarring for anyone playing with us. I have played as mafia on mafia universe where we used discord during the day as advice swapped but was limited to at most things like, "Hey DDS, you sound quite serious so far, try to make some more jokes and appear like your usual light hearted self", but more likely, "PMC seems on to DDS, I will start accusing loose instead" or whatever.

It should be fairly easy to do better than random for an experienced player.

(Also consider is it necessarily a bad thing if the Town Power Roles don't discover anything N1.
Yes they should disclose ASAP if they find something.
But might it not possibly be better if they investigated but didn't find anything N1 but did on N2 and lived to D3 to reveal?)

2. How do you think Mafia can predict town actions from what I am proposing?

I mean I don't think they actually can but maybe someone can explain how they can.

They can predict what won't happen. If they killed dev tonight, they would know that he can't track the next person in the list. I guess you could recreate the list each day, but unless you did it unpredictably then mafia could game the system.

Anyway I think this is all moot because no one will listen and you are more likely town than not.

[pmchugh]

Sigh, the day ends with a lynch regardless right? So I'm being forced to conform to your ways, is that it?! HUH?!

Unvote my joke vote.

Vote PMC. Mainly for the early attempt of Town cred with a list that's all too early to tell who is who.

This also may or may not be because he killed me in another game. I got your name too Charle! I DO NOT FORGET

You can actually vote no lynch if you want. There is something off about this post, seems like a joke but not a joke and immediately jumps my brain to potentially scum with charle, maybe OMGUS but unvote vote DDS

[DirtyDishSoap]

I was actually told in my not scum chat to make up a reason to vote for you. OMGUS though. My feelings.

[Maxleod]

Let's just lynch DDS FFS. It's like he asking for it...

[DirtyDishSoap]

I smell like a 3 week old pizza

[Kingm]

1. Town therefore has to assume what mafia are saying is as unreadable as the most unreadable of the 4 mafia players.
Therefore each individual Town Power player would have to be better at reading scum tells than the best of the 4 mafia players are at disguising the tells.

Is really nobody going to comment this?
You guys that has probably played a lot more mafia games with LC then me, is this a real townslip, or is he "smart" enough to be scum and put in this weird townslip.
Because I find it really weird that the guy that says he has made some stupid algorithm about the matrix, don't actually read what it says under the matrix, its 12 townies 3 scum.

And the reason I call the algorithm stupid is because in a game of mafia you will never get everyone to tell the truth, no point in discussing if this would be good or not, its just naiv to think that something like that would work, and even if it did, would it even be valuable to us townies to know, I'm really not sure.

One other thing I'm also unsure about, is if the standard no lynch D1 is a good or bad thing in this game, ok right now we have really nothing concrete to go at all, but thats most likely also going to be the case for D2.
With a random lynch our chances of hitting a scum is just 20%, but it does not go any higher than 21.5% on D2 when scum has killed one of us.
But I don't like to lynch someone just to lynch someone, and right now I don't have anyone spesific in mind, so: unvote strike
Vote no lynch

[pmchugh]

1. Town therefore has to assume what mafia are saying is as unreadable as the most unreadable of the 4 mafia players.
Therefore each individual Town Power player would have to be better at reading scum tells than the best of the 4 mafia players are at disguising the tells.

Is really nobody going to comment this?
You guys that has probably played a lot more mafia games with LC then me, is this a real townslip, or is he "smart" enough to be scum and put in this weird townslip.
Because I find it really weird that the guy that says he has made some stupid algorithm about the matrix, don't actually read what it says under the matrix, its 12 townies 3 scum.

And the reason I call the algorithm stupid is because in a game of mafia you will never get everyone to tell the truth, no point in discussing if this would be good or not, its just naiv to think that something like that would work, and even if it did, would it even be valuable to us townies to know, I'm really not sure.

One other thing I'm also unsure about, is if the standard no lynch D1 is a good or bad thing in this game, ok right now we have really nothing concrete to go at all, but thats most likely also going to be the case for D2.
With a random lynch our chances of hitting a scum is just 20%, but it does not go any higher than 21.5% on D2 when scum has killed one of us.
But I don't like to lynch someone just to lynch someone, and right now I don't have anyone spesific in mind, so: unvote strike
Vote no lynch

Oh yeah, we have a classic townslip. I did see that and think, huh I thought it was 3, but then forgot to check. I think LC is capable of faking a townslip but in general its less likely than it being real.