Conquer Club

Johnny Rockets wrote:would you label people who don't worship Jesus (for example, they just see him as being in close contact with a supernatural agent, rather than a supernatural agent in his own right), but still follow his moral standards and view of the universe as it pertains to a personal god as Christians? Because they still consider themselves to be Christians, and your classification would leave them out. Pardon my befuddlement.

I think it would be difficult to split hairs here on the worship part of the equation.
By definition is not one who worships Christ a Christian?

Christian like behavior shares common attributes with many other religion's preaching’s and teachings. So just to behave like a Christian or display Christian like behavior isn't enough to classify you as a Christian. You’re just a hell of a nice guy.

However you can pray to Christ and go out and murder, rape, & pillage and still make a valid claim that you’re Christian.
You’re just a shitty Christian. Or a deluded hypocrite.

Now that being said, which religious groups does your above post refer too?
Correct me please if I'm in error, but don't the Mormons worship both equally?
Save the Jews, I can't think of any "The Good Lord Almighty" type faith that does not include the worship of Christ even if they direct praise to Father, Son, and Holy Ghost or Mary.
Perhaps I'm overlooking a few.

In the end I guess it's personal opinion, and our desire to label ourselves and each other into comfortable categories. Does it truly matter?

Regards,

JRock

Woodruff wrote:

Neoteny wrote:Despite what religions have done to bastardize what you conceive as Christ's message, would you label people who don't worship Jesus (for example, they just see him as being in close contact with a supernatural agent, rather than a supernatural agent in his own right), but still follow his moral standards and view of the universe as it pertains to a personal god as Christians? Because they still consider themselves to be Christians, and your classification would leave them out. Pardon my befuddlement.

Uh...I don't worship Jesus nor do I believe in supernatural agents. I do however follow pretty closely with the Christian Bible's moral code. I do not at all consider myself a Christian, and it doesn't even make sense to me that anyone would consider me to be one. Worshiping Jesus is quite a particular requirement to being a Christian ("only through me"), after all.

I know you guys think I'm shitting you, but there are people who consider themselves "Christian" who don't worship Christ. Have you guys never had a sit-down with a Jehovah's Witness?

@JR: I do agree with most of that, sure. I would say that all who worship Christ are likely Christian. But "Christian" might include more than that. I'm not saying anything in particular about Mormons; I'm just saying that the definition isn't quite as cut and dry as you guys are saying it is.

@Woodruff: The first part of your post is kinda my point. Many of the simplistic definitions for Christian are too inclusive or not inclusive enough. According to your definition, the JWs are not Christians, but they would (at great lengths) disagree with you.

pimpdave wrote:It's interesting that Mormons just deny deny deny.

If that stuff was twisted The Neon Peon, why not post the text of what those citations refer to here, and provide for us the proper interpretation, instead of just calling it wrong out of hand but not substantiating it with anything but saying "that's wrong"? Give us the source material, and then explain it please.

It's what other Christians do when challenged on points of the Bible, and you are a Christian, right?

I spend about 10 minutes a day on CC nowdays, and just make an occasional post every so often. I don't see any reason to spend a couple of hours tracking down all the info. You'll just have to take my word for it.

Alternatively, there was an attempt at a Mormon usergroup a while back (don't remember if anything came out of it). You can PM any of the people that wished to join and ask them if they believe in the stuff the video says they should. I guarantee not one of them will agree to any more of that video than I did.

And btw, to me, if the members of a faith tell me that they do not believe in something, I tend to believe them more than what people that are not of the religion say they believe. That's just me though.

The Neon Peon wrote:I spend about 10 minutes a day on CC nowdays, and just make an occasional post every so often. I don't see any reason to spend a couple of hours tracking down all the info. You'll just have to take my word for it.

Alternatively, there was an attempt at a Mormon usergroup a while back (don't remember if anything came out of it). You can PM any of the people that wished to join and ask them if they believe in the stuff the video says they should. I guarantee not one of them will agree to any more of that video than I did.

And btw, to me, if the members of a faith tell me that they do not believe in something, I tend to believe them more than what people that are not of the religion say they believe. That's just me though.

So you don't deny that, at one point, that video accurately captured the beliefs of the Mormon religion? I know you guys decided to get rid of the parts about black people being demons back in 1978, and it stands to reason that many of the Mormons here were born later than that date, so it makes sense you as individuals would no longer believe that stuff.

But whatever, I'm not trying to belittle you or pick a fight, it all goes back to the original point that Mormons are a completely different religion from Christianity and not a denomination of it. I'm just not convinced you guys are Christians, but rather a completely different religion. I apologize if I unintentionally offended you.

pimpdave wrote:So you don't deny that, at one point, that video accurately captured the beliefs of the Mormon religion? I know you guys decided to get rid of the parts about black people being demons back in 1978, and it stands to reason that many of the Mormons here were born later than that date, so it makes sense you as individuals would no longer believe that stuff.

Um... no. The quote they were referring to is "And God punished the wicked by turning their skin dark." or something to that effect. The wicked that it referred to were the Lamanites, who were a group of Native Americans. And no, seeing as it is written in "The Book of Mormon" and it is still in there, we've not gotten rid of it.

But whatever, I'm not trying to belittle you or pick a fight, it all goes back to the original point that Mormons are a completely different religion from Christianity and not a denomination of it. I'm just not convinced you guys are Christians, but rather a completely different religion. I apologize if I unintentionally offended you.

I still disagree. We are monotheistic, although do have a concept of becoming a "gods" in the afterlife if you do certain things in this world. (although that is a very complicated aspect, and I personally did not get impression that it had anything to do with creating other worlds and populating them, but I can see how someone could interpret it to be that way). We also believe in Christ and use the Bible as one of our primary books and follow by it. Certainly, we are much farther apart from Christianity than most other branches, but I'd define anyone who believes in the atonement of Christ as a Christian.

And no, I wasn't offended, but I can't say I was in a very good mood after that video.

I know you guys think I'm shitting you, but there are people who consider themselves "Christian" who don't worship Christ. Have you guys never had a sit-down with a Jehovah's Witness?

Good point. I have engaged in conversation with aggressive Jeebers, and found it irritating as hell when they back up their fucked up belief system with scripture quote after scripture quote from an irrelevant book of Hebrew fairy tales while their kids die because they won't give consent to blood transfusions & bone marrow transplants. Thus I have never gotten a good feel out for the whole Christ question as they mostly jerk off to old testament.

But I believe a J.W.'s stance on Christ is closer to the Muslim faith on where they believe in his existence but do not exalt him to the level of praying to him.

I dug this out of a random J.W. website:

They do not believe in the Trinity. Instead, they follow a strict monotheism, in which: Jehovah is the Supreme Being. Jesus is the Son of God, a created being. Christ is believed to have originally existed in a pre-human state as the Archangel Michael. He later took human form as a man like any other person, except that he was sinless at birth and remained so throughout his earthly life. Jehovah’s Witnesses do not believe in the bodily resurrection of Christ. They believe that after the crucifixion, Christ died and was resurrected as an invisible, non-material, glorious, spirit creature. They believe that Jesus appeared on earth after his resurrection in a special body that Jehovah created for him.

The Holy Spirit they believe, is not a separate entity, but is simply a force: the method by which God interacts with the world.

Take it with a grain of salt for sure, as I didn't look into it that closely.
If you or anyone else have any other examples I'd like to hear 'em, and I'll poke around a bit myself as now I'm pretty curious myself.
What immediately comes to mind is that some cultures worship multiple deities, including Christ + other traditional local gods. So in that instance you definitely have a valid point.

As for the Mormons:
Christians you may be, but where I don't see a valid platform for faith is the included conviction that a group of Israelites floated across the fucking Atlantic and converted a portion of native American Indians TWICE!! in 2247 BCE, & 600 BCE, built a civilization that spanned from sea to sea, and then died out leaving no trace for archaeologists to find or any DNA in any aboriginal living or dead. You're nudging out Scientology (albeit barely...) as having the most illogical deluded ideology ever.
Again, my opinion. It's one thing to have faith in the unknown, but to piss in the face of science and physics is absurd.

But perhaps I'm just a cynic.

Cause no harm.
Johnny Rockets

pimpdave wrote:It's interesting that Mormons just deny deny deny.
If that stuff was twisted The Neon Peon, why not post the text of what those citations refer to here, and provide for us the proper interpretation, instead of just calling it wrong out of hand but not substantiating it with anything but saying "that's wrong"? Give us the source material, and then explain it please.
It's what other Christians do when challenged on points of the Bible, and you are a Christian, right?

What the hell kind of Christians have YOU been dealing with? Certainly not too many of the ones around this place.

Johnny Rockets wrote:I know you guys think I'm shitting you, but there are people who consider themselves "Christian" who don't worship Christ. Have you guys never had a sit-down with a Jehovah's Witness?

Good point. I have engaged in conversation with aggressive Jeebers, and found it irritating as hell when they back up their fucked up belief system with scripture quote after scripture quote from an irrelevant book of Hebrew fairy tales while their kids die because they won't give consent to blood transfusions & bone marrow transplants. Thus I have never gotten a good feel out for the whole Christ question as they mostly jerk off to old testament.

But I believe a J.W.'s stance on Christ is closer to the Muslim faith on where they believe in his existence but do not exalt him to the level of praying to him.

I dug this out of a random J.W. website:

They do not believe in the Trinity. Instead, they follow a strict monotheism, in which: Jehovah is the Supreme Being. Jesus is the Son of God, a created being. Christ is believed to have originally existed in a pre-human state as the Archangel Michael. He later took human form as a man like any other person, except that he was sinless at birth and remained so throughout his earthly life. Jehovah’s Witnesses do not believe in the bodily resurrection of Christ. They believe that after the crucifixion, Christ died and was resurrected as an invisible, non-material, glorious, spirit creature. They believe that Jesus appeared on earth after his resurrection in a special body that Jehovah created for him.

The Holy Spirit they believe, is not a separate entity, but is simply a force: the method by which God interacts with the world.

Take it with a grain of salt for sure, as I didn't look into it that closely.
If you or anyone else have any other examples I'd like to hear 'em, and I'll poke around a bit myself as now I'm pretty curious myself.
What immediately comes to mind is that some cultures worship multiple deities, including Christ + other traditional local gods. So in that instance you definitely have a valid point.

As for the Mormons:
Christians you may be, but where I don't see a valid platform for faith is the included conviction that a group of Israelites floated across the fucking Atlantic and converted a portion of native American Indians TWICE!! in 2247 BCE, & 600 BCE, built a civilization that spanned from sea to sea, and then died out leaving no trace for archaeologists to find or any DNA in any aboriginal living or dead. You're nudging out Scientology (albeit barely...) as having the most illogical deluded ideology ever.
Again, my opinion. It's one thing to have faith in the unknown, but to piss in the face of science and physics is absurd.

But perhaps I'm just a cynic.

Cause no harm.
Johnny Rockets

Meh, I don't claim to really know much about them; just the basic stuff. It seems we're finally in agreement for the most part, though.

Woodruff wrote:

pimpdave wrote:It's interesting that Mormons just deny deny deny.
If that stuff was twisted The Neon Peon, why not post the text of what those citations refer to here, and provide for us the proper interpretation, instead of just calling it wrong out of hand but not substantiating it with anything but saying "that's wrong"? Give us the source material, and then explain it please.
It's what other Christians do when challenged on points of the Bible, and you are a Christian, right?

What the hell kind of Christians have YOU been dealing with? Certainly not too many of the ones around this place.

Good point. I guess I've been spoiled by the academic nature of the Presbyterians.

The Neon Peon wrote:I still disagree. We are monotheistic, although do have a concept of becoming a "gods" in the afterlife if you do certain things in this world.

So then you're not Christians. Nor are you monotheistic. You just call yourselves that. Which reconfirms my original point. All you do is claim you are, and call it that. But it's not really that.

Haven't read through the entire thread, but here are my comments:

Anyone can call themselves anything they like. The basic definition of Christianity is that you accept that Jesus Christ died on the cross for your sins. Anything else is "debateable" within the various groups and sects. Many Roman Catholics don't consider Protestants "true Christians", though the tone changed quite a bit with Vatican I and II. Many Evangelicals actively speak of "converting" Roman Catholics to Christianity, so those groups will absolutely consider Mormons "outside". Groups like the Amish and Hutterites have even more narrow definitions.

Mormons do "skate on the edge" and have made themselves unpopular for many "superficial" reasons that don't necessarily have to do with whether they are Christian or not, ranging from acceptance of polygamy to earlier disdain for blacks (now rejected), "marrying" of deceased people, etc.

Many modern Mormans reject at least the polygamy and the racism (as I believe several people have pointed out), but there are deeper questions of their faith (as was also pointed out).

The truth is that you have to talk to someone to know their beliefs. Many people belong to the Mormon church, but are either unaware or reject some of the more controversial points. Many people belong to other churches and similarly do not follow their precepts.

Don't forget how they kidnapped and raped innocent children along their "pilgrimage" to a place where they could murder and rape whoever they wanted (Utah), all the while claiming they were "saving" those children.

And they only call themselves Christians to try and disassociate from their criminal past. Yet they continue to worship those vile people as prophets and demigods!

Also, Player, watch the video in the OP. Do us all a favor and don't come in here firing from the hip without even looking at the first post.

But why do YOU care what they call themselves?

Army of GOD wrote:But why do YOU care what they call themselves?

Consistency. Or at least, that's the reason I'll be going with this week.

But it goes deeper than that, since they're so awful at properly identifying what they really are, it permeates into more pernicious lying, like Glenn Beck (a Mormon) claiming that the Nazis were socialists and not fascists because they had socialist in the name of their party.

That's the same kind of idiot logic he uses to label his religion, which has merely glommed onto the most socially acceptable terminology without ever addressing the reality of their false and deceptive claims.

Socialism and Fascism aren't mutually exclusive terms Dave.

I'll let you get back to your mongering now.

pimpdave wrote:Don't forget how they kidnapped and raped innocent children along their "pilgrimage" to a place where they could murder and rape whoever they wanted (Utah), all the while claiming they were "saving" those children.

Sorry, but depravity is not really accepted or a part of any of most religions.

Yes, it happened, but the Roman Catholics, Protestants, atheists .. etc, etc. have all had their shares of idiocy. As for Utah -- enough harm was caused on BOTH sides to fill plenty of books. They went to escape presecution, did turn around and oppress others. So did many other cultures and societies. I don't excuse it, but its hardly something that differentiats Mormanism

pimpdave wrote:And they only call themselves Christians to try and disassociate from their criminal past. Yet they continue to worship those vile people as prophets and demigods!

Also, Player, watch the video in the OP. Do us all a favor and don't come in here firing from the hip without even looking at the first post.

Saying I did not read the whole thread doesn't mean I missed the first post. However, I will look at the video again.

Neoteny wrote:

Woodruff wrote:

Neoteny wrote:Despite what religions have done to bastardize what you conceive as Christ's message, would you label people who don't worship Jesus (for example, they just see him as being in close contact with a supernatural agent, rather than a supernatural agent in his own right), but still follow his moral standards and view of the universe as it pertains to a personal god as Christians? Because they still consider themselves to be Christians, and your classification would leave them out. Pardon my befuddlement.

Uh...I don't worship Jesus nor do I believe in supernatural agents. I do however follow pretty closely with the Christian Bible's moral code. I do not at all consider myself a Christian, and it doesn't even make sense to me that anyone would consider me to be one. Worshiping Jesus is quite a particular requirement to being a Christian ("only through me"), after all.

@Woodruff: The first part of your post is kinda my point. Many of the simplistic definitions for Christian are too inclusive or not inclusive enough. According to your definition, the JWs are not Christians, but they would (at great lengths) disagree with you.

Umm...what was it that I said that leads you to believe I wouldn't consider Jehovah's Witnesses to be Christians? Are you actually saying that Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe that Jesus Christ is the way to heaven? Because that's pretty much the only way they can NOT be Christians.

Woodruff wrote:

Neoteny wrote:

Woodruff wrote:

Neoteny wrote:Despite what religions have done to bastardize what you conceive as Christ's message, would you label people who don't worship Jesus (for example, they just see him as being in close contact with a supernatural agent, rather than a supernatural agent in his own right), but still follow his moral standards and view of the universe as it pertains to a personal god as Christians? Because they still consider themselves to be Christians, and your classification would leave them out. Pardon my befuddlement.

Uh...I don't worship Jesus nor do I believe in supernatural agents. I do however follow pretty closely with the Christian Bible's moral code. I do not at all consider myself a Christian, and it doesn't even make sense to me that anyone would consider me to be one. Worshiping Jesus is quite a particular requirement to being a Christian ("only through me"), after all.

@Woodruff: The first part of your post is kinda my point. Many of the simplistic definitions for Christian are too inclusive or not inclusive enough. According to your definition, the JWs are not Christians, but they would (at great lengths) disagree with you.

Umm...what was it that I said that leads you to believe I wouldn't consider Jehovah's Witnesses to be Christians? Are you actually saying that Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe that Jesus Christ is the way to heaven? Because that's pretty much the only way they can NOT be Christians.

I believe they don't actually worship Jesus. There are groups of christians who don't believe Jesus was the only son of god but is more like an archangel or something. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_of_Jesus

It is quite complicated.

pimpdave wrote:

Army of GOD wrote:But why do YOU care what they call themselves?

Consistency. Or at least, that's the reason I'll be going with this week.

But it goes deeper than that, since they're so awful at properly identifying what they really are, it permeates into more pernicious lying, like Glenn Beck (a Mormon) claiming that the Nazis were socialists and not fascists because they had socialist in the name of their party.

That's the same kind of idiot logic he uses to label his religion, which has merely glommed onto the most socially acceptable terminology without ever addressing the reality of their false and deceptive claims.

Not really. Religion is always as much about what people call themselves as what outsiders say.



Political labels, on the other hand are much more outside labels, used for convenience. When negativism overrides, the name and/or definition changes. Therefore much of what people accept as "conservative" today, regarding other races, women, etc. was firmly "liberal" not so long ago.

I don't dispute the issues you mentioned. I say that MORMON's dispute that those are the "real and true" facts. I say that I know many who participate in all churches who claim to be Christian, but don't necessarily hold to doctrines I feel are essential. I also know some who participate in "borderline" churches like Mormanism, and even some outright non-Christian churchs (Hinduism, for example) who seem to believe exactly what I do, but to use different names.

Per Mormanism specifically, claims that "we don't practice polygamy" and "are not racist" are difficult for me. I know the people in the modern church believe that, but I also know that they were beliefs held firmly by Joseph Smith, whom they revere second only to Christ (some say differently, but that is what I have been taught). My section of the Christian Church has changed its beliefs on many things. However, when I go back to our book, the Bible, I don't see conflict. I see people who have misunderstood many things. For example, when Christ told slaves to return to their slaveholder (to paraphrase) and women to bow to their husbands, he used similar language and was not actually saying that either was treated appropriately in that society. He was giving advice for how people without full "political" rights, without power can act against oppression.

This is distinctly different from saying that people with dark skin were made that way becuase they refused to honor Jesus. The Book of Mormon seems to have too many things that I just don't find acceptable or consistant with my idea of Christianity.

Ultimately, it is not for me to judge, it is for God.

Snorri1234 wrote:
I believe they don't actually worship Jesus. There are groups of christians who don't believe Jesus was the only son of god but is more like an archangel or something. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_of_Jesus

It is quite complicated.

All Christian and quasi-Christian groups claim to worship or follow Jesus in some form. What they believe that means differs. How much they do and do not accept others who use the name "Christian" also differs. In the US, there is such a heavy pro-Christian bias that many groups almost "bend over backwards" to try and say they are "Christian".

There is such diversity within the church it is really hard to just look at labels and really and truly know what anyone thinks. That is why it is best to sit down and talk to people, rather than just looking at labels.

Optimus Prime wrote:If you watch that video and think you have a handle on all of the teaching of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints you are horribly naive. While it does cover some of the doctrines that the LDS people believe it does so in way that makes it seems as outlandish as possible. If you were to learn of those doctrines in their proper setting and in a way that connects them to the much more basic principles of the Church they would seem much less outlandish and absurd.

I'm going to refrain from getting into yet another back and forth debate on LDS teachings in this forum as time and again it has been proved that an educated discussion cannot be had here, but I felt I needed to comment on how badly that cartoon attempts to take valid doctrine and twist it to look absurd and ridiculous.

If you want to actually learn about the LDS faith properly, try looking here: http://mormon.org

I agree with OP statement here. In addition, attacking ones religion for the sake of belief makes the attacker less than the one accused. In everything I had read, it comes down to one main point, Yes "Mormons" or members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints believe in Christ. He is the son of God and our eldest brother in this great Plan of Happiness. There are many people in our religion and other religions alike that have issue with certain topics. Instead of dwelling on those issues, focus on the strengths of each religion and see the difference they all make for good. Just like in the Bible and in the Book of Mormon, there are many trials those people faced just like we faced today. We are becoming a society worldwide that is putting the side things of God and looking to our own greed and selfishness. I leave this only in Christ's words himself, "let Ye that is without sin, let him cast the first stone".

I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints! As such, I have a great love and respect for people of all faiths. If you really again want to understand our beliefs and what we do, visit www.mormon.org or www.lds.org

reelkmcn

almost everyone in the world, no matter what religion, or even no religion at all, at least believe that jesus did exsist.

however, this does not mean they accept him as a god, prophet, son of god, or anything of the likes.

most religions have very different definitions on what exactly jesus is/was and what his role on earth is/was, and what his role in heavin is/was/might be.

therefore, the definition of 'christian' is also subjective.

everyone is free to believe.

reelkmcn wrote: There are many people in our religion and other religions alike that have issue with certain topics. Instead of dwelling on those issues, focus on the strengths of each religion and see the difference they all make for good. Just like in the Bible and in the Book of Mormon, there are many trials those people faced just like we faced today. We are becoming a society worldwide that is putting the side things of God and looking to our own greed and selfishness. I leave this only in Christ's words himself, "let Ye that is without sin, let him cast the first stone".

I (obviously) disagree with you on many faith points, but few truer words have been spoken than those above.

We have a choice. We can be angry and upset that people disagree or we can decide to discuss/debate, but respect each other and celebrate the areas where we agree.

zimmah wrote:almost everyone in the world, no matter what religion, or even no religion at all, at least believe that jesus did exsist.

No we don't. I mean, speaking at least for anyone who actually takes a look at this past the Bible or accepting that Catholics already did it for them. I personally don't think that Jesus ever really existed. There is no evidence that he did outside of the Bible. It's akin to saying that the Cat in the Hat existed once.

In fact, thanks to the internet there is a whole wide and diverse group out there that think Jesus was actually Horus.

zimmah wrote:everyone is free to believe.

But speak or do the wrong thing in front of the wrong person and there will be a price.

Jesus was only horus because he talked too long for the Sermon on the Mount. \a throat lozenge soon cured it.

jonesthecurl wrote:Jesus was only horus because he talked too long for the Sermon on the Mount. \a throat lozenge soon cured it.