Conquer Club

happysadfun wrote:

heavycola wrote:

happysadfun wrote:2 hundred thousand? ?? ??? Thats pretty far off. Which side is terroristic and dictatorial? Which side is training Iraqi soldiers and police to protect themselves and liberating innocent villagers to be free?

I don't have any sympathy for him, of course. But capital punishment is barbaric, outdated and wrong. And it was a show trial.
BUt this OP is hardly surprising - in 2005, 94% of all state executions took place in China, Iran, Saudi Arabia and.... the USA!

China- 1.4 Billion people, politically unstable.
Iran- Very, very politically unstable.
Saudi- A dangerous place. My uncle went there and the plane he was in was almost shot down.
USA- A smaller minority out of the four named, known for liberty and justice.

OMG are you serious? The USA is the only democratic country where deadpenalty is still legal. Doesn't it ring a bell to you?

I'm sorry to say, but in some ways, the US isn't democratic at all.
If you don't believe me, try to travell to a European country (best if you travelled to Flandres or Holland) and see how the press works there. You may find it shocking that news isn't onesided and isn't made to make people affraid. And I could come with some more examples.

By the way, why did the US attack Iraq?
1. There still aren't found any weapons of mass destruction, and if there were, the US hasn't got to fear a COUNTRY, but they have to fear ORGANISATIONS. Like Al Quaida and others, and I can garantee there are organisations like this in EVERY country around the globe.
2. Why do you hate Saddam that much? If you were after him because he killed so many people, wouldn't it be better to change people with a lot more blood on their hands first? (For example: Pinochet (Chilli, dead now), the Sudanian government for their misbehaving in Darfour, a lot of African dictators, Putin (in Russia, yes, or should I really remind you of Tsjetsjenia (don't know how it's said in english), Georgia (not in the US),...), Bush himself, ...)

And for now: I think deadpenalty should be banished everywhere across the globe. Because if you would kill someone because he has killed a lot of other people, wouldn't it make a killer of you yourself? If you think about it straight, killing someone as a punishment is just as good KILLING someone.

Edit: by the way, China isn't that political instable. The government has everything under control (untill now that is, because in the future there will come resistance from the better educated people).
And Saudi, quite stable compared to other Islam-countries. Because of a DICTATORSHIP supported by the USA, guess it's obvious it's because of the oil they maintain contact with them.

i saw him get hanged on video, i have the link if anyone wants to watch!!!!

happysadfun wrote:

heavycola wrote:

happysadfun wrote:2 hundred thousand? ?? ??? Thats pretty far off. Which side is terroristic and dictatorial? Which side is training Iraqi soldiers and police to protect themselves and liberating innocent villagers to be free?

I don't have any sympathy for him, of course. But capital punishment is barbaric, outdated and wrong. And it was a show trial.
BUt this OP is hardly surprising - in 2005, 94% of all state executions took place in China, Iran, Saudi Arabia and.... the USA!

China- 1.4 Billion people, politically unstable.
Iran- Very, very politically unstable.
Saudi- A dangerous place. My uncle went there and the plane he was in was almost shot down.
USA- A smaller minority out of the four named, known for liberty and justice.

I should have guessed. WOOD. TREES. And more of your unthinking flagwaving rhetoric.

Since 1990 (until last year) Amnesty International named 6 countries as carrying out executions of children: Saudi, Iran, Yemen, Nigeria, Pakistan and... the USA! And the most prolific state killer of minors? The USA! That bastion of 'liberty and justice'.

I am not having a go at americans or your country per se. I love the US, i've travelled there a few times and I hate to generalise. But trotting out war on turrsm buzzwords like 'justice' in this context is just bullshit.

Here's another amnesty statistic: almost 1 in 10 death sentences in the US are overturned, and that is despite often wofeully bad state-appointed legal representation for the (usually poor) defendants. Which suggests a lot of innocent people being put to death.

people die everywhere, when they shouldn't, shut up

your talking crap on america, when if i went to the middle east i could be beaten for showing a strand of my hair, get a life

Kayla wrote:your talking crap on america, when if i went to the middle east i could be beaten for showing a strand of my hair, get a life

a) No i'm not. I'm talking crap on the death penalty. I love america.
b) Where in the middle east? Iraq? Israel? Lebanon? Iran? Qatar? Egypt? the UAE? No. Saudi, the US' best friend and fellow top executioner? Maybe.

Kayla wrote:your talking crap on america, when if i went to the middle east i could be beaten for showing a strand of my hair, get a life

a) No i'm not. I'm talking crap on the death penalty. I love america.
b) Where in the middle east? Iraq? Israel? Lebanon? Iran? Qatar? Egypt? the UAE? No. Saudi, the US' best friend and fellow top executioner? Maybe.

did you enjoy watching the video, by the way?

not really. would of been more entertaining if it was more brutal

Kayla wrote:your talking crap on america, when if i went to the middle east i could be beaten for showing a strand of my hair, get a life

Not talking crap, just critisising on points that could be improved.
I think mainly the goverment (read: Bush, Chainey, Rize) now is the problem (allthough there has been improvement at the elections in november).
But maybe americans should self-reflect once in a while, you would have to come up with the thought that deadpenalty isn't ethical correct.

And about the showing the hair, it's not because other countries act that way, the democratic countries should act the same. I hate it when people think like that.
It's like my fellow countrymen who say: 'Look at the muslims building their mosks here, we had to try and pull that of over there with building churches'... and then i think by myself: 'Be happy it can be done here, or would you like to live in the same circumstances like there'? No, so let's even try to improve ourselves

It seems we have a matter of comparison here. Of course the US has a way greater deal of personal liberties, human rights guarantees and the like than Iran, China, North Korea and Saudi. The problem is that you compare ANY other country to those four, they come out looking good.

I love the USA, I've lived here my whole life, but that doesn't mean there's no room for improvement. We could start by electing a government that actually obeys the Constitution.

rathersane wrote:It seems we have a matter of comparison here. Of course the US has a way greater deal of personal liberties, human rights guarantees and the like than Iran, China, North Korea and Saudi. The problem is that you compare ANY other country to those four, they come out looking good.

Understood, but we're comparing state executions, not human rights records. And if a comparison therein is possible with Saudi, China et al, then any other country looks bad. As it damned well should.

Kayla wrote:not really. would of been more entertaining if it was more brutal

OK...so, tell me Kayla...why are you so gleefully happy about his hanging.

More than one sentence please.

im not glad about his hanging, it was too quick.

heavycola wrote:

rathersane wrote:It seems we have a matter of comparison here. Of course the US has a way greater deal of personal liberties, human rights guarantees and the like than Iran, China, North Korea and Saudi. The problem is that you compare ANY other country to those four, they come out looking good.

Understood, but we're comparing state executions, not human rights records. And if a comparison therein is possible with Saudi, China et al, then any other country looks bad. As it damned well should.

I'm sorry, but I can't even agree with that.
Turkey comes out better in some ways, I'm sorry.
They have a much bigger seperation in church and law, ok, they have conflicts (like cyprus), but so have the US (Afghanistan, Iraq, (Cuba?),...).

And I'm sorry, but if the US want to be called a democratic country, they should just forbid deadpenalty, it even DOESN'T WORK.
If you compare crime rates in US to other countries who have abbandoned the idea of deadpenalties, you'd see crime rates in the US are higher. And now don't say, that's because you count small crimes as well, because if I didn't, they would come out even worse.
What would work is to deal with the feeling of insecurity in the US, prevention at young ages, a better social network,... Less people would be in poverty and less people would find violence and crime the only way out.

Kayla wrote:im not glad about his hanging, it was too quick.

Now, cmon. If your going to play the game, you should at least try to explain your comments when requested.

Why was it too quick? Why are you so happy about this?

You can do it...I know you can!

Kayla wrote:im not glad about his hanging, it was too quick.

And why do you want him dead at such a high cost?
Has he ever done something wrong to you, your country,...? Or is it just because your goverment and media say he's a evil man?
And don't even bother with the argument for all the lives he has taken, because there are bigger criminals around (look at my first post in this topic for examples).

oh glorious states, ye bastion of all wrong, ye fortress of nul.

lets get personal

well another problem that has rised is that the balence of power between Iraq and Iran has been completely demolished, and now Iran is a huge threat because we took out Iraq's leader. You have to admit there would be more peace there if we didn't take out Saddam... Now we are losing our own people there...

If it was only Iran that was a problem. Turkey will invade into Kurdistan if the strife continues and Syria keeps increasing their influence with their supplying of weapons into Iraq. There isn't a nation near Iraq that is separating themselves from conflict.

In Iraq recently, one man (a teacher) was strapped with steel cables to car wheels. One arm on one car, the other on another. Same with the legs. The cars drove opposite directions. This man was torn apart. His bloody remains were burnt. Why did al-Qaeda (the same organisation you liberals love so dearly) do this to him? Well, this gruesome torture happened because this man taught girls. Where are your protests for equality? Where are your feminist rants? Why do you all want to quit in Iraq, like little wussies, before the job is done? Because it costs you something. "Sure, spread liberty through the world, whatever," you are saying, "but not at my expense."

To RuS: We want to be called a democratic republic, not a communist state, as you tend to suggest. Nothing is as black-and-white as you are seeing it. You have to understand that, unlike the European welfare state, our government knows that there is a difference between right and wrong and punishes the wrong. (Rather than putting everything into neutralness, like "Oh, we should respect his religion. I guess it's OK for him to kill innocent bystanders and blow himself up if his religion says he can.")

Since 1990 (until last year) Amnesty International named 6 countries as carrying out executions of children: Saudi, Iran, Yemen, Nigeria, Pakistan and... the USA! And the most prolific state killer of minors? The USA! That bastion of 'liberty and justice'.

?

Not sure I understand what you're saying. The U.S. government executes minors? Source?

happysadfun wrote:(the same organisation you liberals love so dearly)

Wow, that wins the "hyperbole of the month" award.

Rather than putting everything into neutralness, like "Oh, we should respect his religion. I guess it's OK for him to kill innocent bystanders and blow himself up if his religion says he can."

Much the same way it's ok for him to bomb abortion clinics because the religion says that he should. Let's not cast muslims into the position of being the only religion in the world filled to the brim with nutjobs.

Remember, Christianity has just as many nutjobs if not more.

DogDoc wrote:

Since 1990 (until last year) Amnesty International named 6 countries as carrying out executions of children: Saudi, Iran, Yemen, Nigeria, Pakistan and... the USA! And the most prolific state killer of minors? The USA! That bastion of 'liberty and justice'.

?

Not sure I understand what you're saying. The U.S. government executes minors? Source?

He gave you the source. This source just so happens to be the most biased, America-hating, liberal place I can think of besides the NY Times and Europe.

I was hoping to see a link to the information/statistics. I wasn't aware that we were guilty of state-sponsored executions of minors (minor is someone <18 years of age) and was just curious to see what they're basing that statement on.

happysadfun wrote:To RuS: We want to be called a democratic republic, not a communist state, as you tend to suggest. Nothing is as black-and-white as you are seeing it. You have to understand that, unlike the European welfare state, our government knows that there is a difference between right and wrong and punishes the wrong. (Rather than putting everything into neutralness, like "Oh, we should respect his religion. I guess it's OK for him to kill innocent bystanders and blow himself up if his religion says he can.")

Did I say you shouldn't punish people who blow up others? NO, but I'm just saying the US are dealing in a wrong way with criminals by killing them. It just doesn't work. Not only the numbers are speaking in my advantage, but there were many studies on this subject and they came all out at the end it's better to deal with crime by taking it at the routs. Create a better environment for them to grow up in and stuff.
You can punish people by taking them away from society, and make them work for their own stay in prison.

And, in your suggestion, all European countries, at least those wellfare states, are actually communistic. No we're not.
But, in contradiction to the US, we support people to get a better life.
Let me make a comparisson.
In US: If you're born poor, you'll probably live in one of the poor sides of the city/country. You have all the rights rich people have. But, if you want education, you have to go to a bad school, cause you can't pay for a better one. You'll never be able to climb the ladder because you aren't able to get propre education (ok, there are people who can, self-made men, but they're rare, very rare.).
In Belgium (it's the country i know best): All children get FREE education. Schools are stimulated for helping poor children working up their way. All universities are open to everyone who's got a diploma 'middelbare school' (don't know how it's called in english, i'm sorry for that). People can get scholarfund to go to university.

In other words, and now I am putting it black-white, if you're poor in the US, so be it. If you want to get rich, try and do your best, but don't come crying for help from the government if you won't make it. People still want to get rich, what is the solution? Making money by stealing things and selling them, and eventually maybe even rob banks, kidnap people or kill people to get to their money.
In Belgium everyone can try to get as rich as they want, allthough you have to pay more taxes if you're rich, but the poor ones are giving the same opportunities and don't have to be poor for the rest of their lives. (In theory, in reallife there still is a gap between the rich and the poor).

The thing you said about the teacher, hmm, do you even know what the real situation is there? Al-quaida (why do you even dare to suggest we 'liberals' love them? I am not even a liberal) can't even get foot on ground in Iraq, they were just fanatics who had nothing to do with that.
There are fanatics or extremists or how you want to call them, but they're a minority. Dispitefully, they drag other people with them in their rage, just like Christians did during the crusades and the many wars in Europe between (extremist) protestants and catholics (don't forget, those are your precesters (pilgrim fathers, even more radical then others)).

And plus to that, the fact you just named happened AFTER the invasion by America. The country is a complete wasteland, and therefor I don't like the idea of US troops quiting Iraq. I agree there has to be a UN-peaceforce for reastablishing peace and calmth.
I didn't like the US invading in first place, but now they're there, they better get things done right.

And last but not least, I never asked US to spread liberty through the world. I ask if they really want to spread liberty, they get the right country first. Now they're just oilchasing hippocrats (only building surveiled in Bagdad after the invasion? The ministry of OIL. If there's a dictator like Saddam in Central Africa, they wouldn't even bother. Why not? No natural treasures who are at use of big industries.
And that all to save the 'American dream'.
Well, I hope the bubble may burst one day for you, so you would come to senses as well.