Conquer Club

DirtyDishSoap wrote:A negative nancy one might say.

Excuse me, but I'm identifying as a Karen today athankyouverymuch

mookiemcgee wrote:

DirtyDishSoap wrote:A negative nancy one might say.

Excuse me, but I'm identifying as a Karen today athankyouverymuch

Two-spirit

mookiemcgee wrote:

saxitoxin wrote:

Since you can't provide safety of this - or any - mRNA vaccine at the 24 month post injection mark, I think we can safely assume you acknowledge no such data exists?

Correct Saxi, there is no 2 year data on a drug only given for less than 1 year

Thank you.

Just asking if you'd be willing to volunteer some numbers.

Two year safety statistics don't exist on a drug only given for less than one year.

Bombshell report in the Times.

Scientists (people with MDs and PhDs in medicine and virology) are advising against booster shots. The President (who has a Red Cross lifeguard certificate) is recommending for boosters.

Rats, who refuse to drink water because it's also used by horses to hydrate, are once again rejecting Science in favor of obedience to their Dear Leader. So weird!

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/03/us/c ... d=tw-share

saxitoxin wrote:In the UK, regulatory authorities are recommending no vaccinations to 12 to 15 year olds. In the US they are.

Simple propositional logic (Science) says one of these two are wrong.

If they're wrong about this, what else?

The FDA vouched for the safety of Johnson & Johnson talcum powder for 30 years. Last year J&J was ordered to pay $2 billion in damages because their talcum powder gave people cancer for 30 years

Science does not have to AGREE completely on everything. That is the nature of Science as we learn about something.

suxi does NOT understand Science. Science continues to learn and to adapt and to change, as evidence demands of us. The Science here does NOT have ALL the answers when it comes to COVID or the Vaccines. COVID is a new disease and so are the vaccines. Mookie already pointed this out in his recent post here in this thread.

In fact, Science does not claim to know it all. Nothing is guaranteed; nothing is certain. Read about the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle.

suxi wants to link J&J vaccines, a different technology, to impugn other vaccines, such as the mRNA vaccines. Sorry, suxi, you are using POOR logic and poor reasoning. Your propositions are therefore meaningless. TRY again, and avoid the bad logic, misleading statements, and avoid especially the LIES, suxi.

It is not enough to have a good mind; the main thing is to use it well. Rene Descartes

Try to use your mind BETTER, suxi.

The senses deceive from time to time, and it is prudent never to trust wholly those who have deceived us even once. Rene Descartes

How many times has suxi LIED and deceived us? I count 12 so far and will document MORE when I find the time to do so.

saxitoxin wrote:Bombshell report in the Times.

Scientists (people with MDs and PhDs in medicine and virology) are advising against booster shots. The President (who has a Red Cross lifeguard certificate) is recommending for boosters.

Rats, who refuse to drink water because it's also used by horses to hydrate, are once again rejecting Science in favor of obedience to their Dear Leader. So weird!

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/03/us/c ... d=tw-share

Again, suxi is up to his usual misleading CRAP. This is from his same source:

And since the White House announced the booster plan in mid-August, they said, new hurdles appeared.

Among the reasons for delaying is that regulators need more time to decide the proper dosage for a possible third Moderna shot. The company’s application asking the F.D.A. to authorize a booster shot contains insufficient data, one federal official familiar with the process said. Other data expected from Johnson & Johnson has not been delivered.

Nor has the raw data that the F.D.A. has been seeking from Israel, which is already giving boosters to everyone 12 and older. Israeli officials say their data shows that the potency of Pfizer’s vaccine wanes over time against severe disease and hospitalization, but that a third shot significantly bolsters protection. The F.D.A. wants to see the underlying data, to make sure it backs up summaries that the Israeli government has provided.

Science is being careful and prudent and waiting a better evaluation and better and more data, as noted in this NYTimes article. THAT is Science at its best. We weigh the evidence. And since I teach Science, I think I know it well and can understand it. suxi apparently does not; if he did, he would READ the entire article and get the gist of it and not pick out a quote or post misleading interpretations or headlines. I THINK it is fair to call this documented suxi lie #13.

saxitoxin wrote:

mookiemcgee wrote:

saxitoxin wrote:

Since you can't provide safety of this - or any - mRNA vaccine at the 24 month post injection mark, I think we can safely assume you acknowledge no such data exists?

Correct Saxi, there is no 2 year data on a drug only given for less than 1 year

Thank you.

Just asking if you'd be willing to volunteer some numbers.

Two year safety statistics don't exist on a drug only given for less than one year.

suxi FINALLY SHOWS his brilliance here..!!

Science continues to learn and to adapt and to change, as evidence demands of us. The Science here does NOT have ALL the answers when it comes to COVID or the Vaccines

Correct.

saxitoxin wrote:

Science continues to learn and to adapt and to change, as evidence demands of us. The Science here does NOT have ALL the answers when it comes to COVID or the Vaccines

Correct.

BUT, ...you cannot even IMAGINE the COVID vaccine to be safe, because those in favor of the vaccine, according to you, MUST provide at least two years of data on a disease that has not for even two years.

That is quite the task and quite a bar that you demand to be achieved, Suxi. In the meantime, people get COVID, get sick, some are hospitalized, and a few DIE. GREAT Logic, suxi. And while you demand that, why not wait until you are paid $1 million when you get the vaccine? That is so logical of you, suxi.

jusplay4fun wrote:

saxitoxin wrote:

Science continues to learn and to adapt and to change, as evidence demands of us. The Science here does NOT have ALL the answers when it comes to COVID or the Vaccines

Correct.

BUT, ...you cannot even IMAGINE the COVID vaccine to be safe, because those in favor of the vaccine, according to you, MUST provide at least two years of data on a disease that has not for even two years.

That is quite the task and quite a bar that you demand to be achieved, Suxi. In the meantime, people get COVID, get sick, some are hospitalized, and a few DIE. GREAT Logic, suxi. And while you demand that, why not wait until you are paid $1 million when you get the vaccine? That is so logical of you, suxi.

Technically we don't really know if COVID-19 is dangerous because we don't have 2 years of study on it. The 4.5 million people that died from Covid might actually have died from just being weak minded sheeple, or maybe they aren't even dead? we won't know for sure for until at least 2 years of study have been completed.

Only their bodies are dead.

jusplay4fun wrote:

saxitoxin wrote:

Science continues to learn and to adapt and to change, as evidence demands of us. The Science here does NOT have ALL the answers when it comes to COVID or the Vaccines

Correct.

BUT, ...you cannot even IMAGINE the COVID vaccine to be safe, because those in favor of the vaccine, according to you, MUST provide at least two years of data on a disease that has not for even two years.

Incorrect. I've said I personally won't take a vaccine, created using a method that has never before been used in human history, with less than three years of safety data since we have numerous past instances of medicinal side effects occurring at 12-24-36 months post injection. I've also said that I'm 99% sure the mRNA vaccines are safe but that, according to Science, I have a less than 1% chance of death or hospitalization. So, grade school maths dictates there's no reason for me to rush to get vaxed. I can afford to be the tortoise.

But, you're right, it's a Catch-22. We'll never get three years of safety data if everyone is smart and rational and can do basic arithmetic. We need dullards who are willing to jump headfirst into the fire because an 80 year old man with a lifeguarding certificate told them to. The crème de la crème of humanity needs cannon fodder to ensure its survival. You have my appreciation.

mookiemcgee wrote:
Technically we don't really know if COVID-19 is dangerous because we don't have 2 years of study on it.

Actually, we know for a fact - according to Science - it's not dangerous for most people ("The absolute risk of COVID-19 death as of June 17, 2020 for people <65 years old in high-income countries ranged from 0.001% to 0.0349%"). The problem is it's dangerous for fatties and oldies and, when they get sick, they take up all the hospital beds during a period in time when we already have a shortage of beds due to chronic nursing shortages.

So the danger of COVID-19 for the majority of population is a danger of Economics versus Medicine.

The advice of the CDC for everyone to get vaccinated is (probably) sound advice for positive community health outcomes across a large population group by amortizing minor risks of a barely-tested vaccine against extreme risks faced by the 35% of the population who are old or fat.

The effectiveness of community health programs depends on most people not understanding the difference between community and individual health guidance. If people understand the difference, they start to act in their own best interest which neuters the benefits potentially realized by the whole group acting together.

saxitoxin wrote:By the way, I have a tentative trip to Panama scheduled in October to get the Covaxin vaccine (if WHO gives it an EUA by then which should happen barring issues). It's probably as useful as a saline injection and I don't think I need it but I can unencumber myself from the false narrative that I'm anti vaxx and was planning a holiday in October anyway.

I have no problem with a vaccine made using a 200 year old method. I have a problem with a quickie vaccine made using a brand new, never before used method that was rushed out to make it into a Q4 earnings report by companies with long documented histories of being sued for deadly medicinal screw ups.

Panama is a good place for brand new, never before used medical treatments.

saxitoxin wrote:

jusplay4fun wrote:

saxitoxin wrote:

Science continues to learn and to adapt and to change, as evidence demands of us. The Science here does NOT have ALL the answers when it comes to COVID or the Vaccines

Correct.

BUT, ...you cannot even IMAGINE the COVID vaccine to be safe, because those in favor of the vaccine, according to you, MUST provide at least two years of data on a disease that has not for even two years.

Incorrect. I've said I personally won't take a vaccine, created using a method that has never before been used in human history, with less than three years of safety data since we have numerous past instances of medicinal side effects occurring at 12-24-36 months post injection. I've also said that I'm 99% sure the mRNA vaccines are safe but that, according to Science, I have a less than 1% chance of death or hospitalization. So, grade school maths dictates there's no reason for me to rush to get vaxed. I can afford to be the tortoise.

But, you're right, it's a Catch-22. We'll never get three years of safety data if everyone is smart and rational and can do basic arithmetic. We need dullards who are willing to jump headfirst into the fire because an 80 year old man with a lifeguarding certificate told them to. The crème de la crème of humanity needs cannon fodder to ensure its survival. You have my appreciation.

Saxi, I will give you credit for your apparent attitude change and your willingness to rationally discuss the pros and cons of the COVID Vaccines.

You are FLAT WRONG on this point: Nearly all people do NOT get the vaccine based on the Leadership and Wisdom (and/or lack thereof) of President Biden. Those of us who have examined the facts and have considered options in an intelligent way have decided to take the vaccine due to its efficacy and due to the expert judgement of the many medical and science persons who understand these matters better than most of us. The evidence and arguments made by the relatively small community of such persons, especially epidemiologists, have consistently advocated for mass vaccinations. You are also wrong to assume that those of us who have gotten the vaccine are all dullards.

I will concede that the whole matter of the COVID Vaccine is a HUGE experiment, where we do not know the end result. BASED on the Science, and based on available data, we know the vaccines are all relatively safe and sufficiently efficacious. Because there are many vaccines (and 3 approved for use in the USA), the efficacy and side effects vary. The side effects are a hugely complex issue and we did not know ALL of them, based on the trials. For example, the one major side effect that has gotten some attention are the danger of blood clots. BUT that is only for a very small population (12 cases, after the initial report of 6 cases) and they were limited to women between the ages of 30 and 45, as I recall. One of the 12 died, and she was in my home state of Virginia, as I recall. My neighbor used that EXCUSE to avoid getting ANY vaccine, when it was only evident for the J&J vaccine.

NOTE my statement here: "the vaccines are all relatively safe and sufficiently efficacious." We are still learning and that was how Science works. You seem intelligent enough to understand that. But overall data shows the safety and efficacy of all the vaccines. I knew from polls that there were some 20-30% of the US population NOT willing to get the vaccine AT ALL. And some 20-30% are "on the fence" and not very willing, but will wait until more evidence. The upsurge in cases, mostly due to the delta variant, has persuaded many to get the vaccine. There were at least 4 consecutive days where at least 1 million got the vaccine each day. Such rates of vaccination had fallen to well below that number in basically June and especially July. So fear of the THE Virus has driven many to get vaccinated. Seeing family, friends, and acquaintance get COVID persuaded many who were reluctant.

We know that there are many factors that make COVID dangerous of death and hospitalizations. We know that healthy and younger people are less likely to get COVID and suffer badly from it. I think the delta variant SEEMS more dangerous overall and more dangerous for 1) children and 2) healthy and younger people. I have not researched that matter in great detail. We know that older, fatter, and those less healthy, especially those with respiratory issues are in great danger of the effects of COVID. We made a HUGE effort to vaccinate those at RISK who are older.

There is LOTS of vaccine hesitation among minority populations. Many of those, who live in multi-generation families and who work in jobs that require contact with the general population, are therefore at greater RISK of COVID. I have seen much more willingness to wear masks among blacks who live and shop where I do. At the grocery store the other day, I looked, because I was struck by how many were wearing masks. I saw that nearly ALL blacks had masks on. The only other person, besides me, without a mask, was a white middle aged woman. That high percentage about 4 days ago was striking to me. I do not view masks as an effective alternative to the vaccine. They may limit the spread, but are not as efficacious.

A few further points, for now. (1) There are significant number of those who suffer COVID and suffer long term effects; they are referred to as "long haulers." We do not know much about that and the data on that is relatively small. Medical "folks" are treating them and progress was slow. There has been little in the news media on this issue in the past 4 months, as DELTA and the surge it has caused has pushed that matter "off the front page" of the media.

(2) It is likely based on the data, that COVID is carried by those who are vaccinated; some may even be asymptomatic and may spread it. That to me is another compelling argument to get vaccinated. (3) I will avoid, for now, the policies of schools where I live and work as this does not affect (I assume) most readers here.

Many of those reluctant to get the vaccine seem unwilling to consider the Science and cannot sort the issues for themselves. So they take on the beliefs of their tribe as they cannot deal with all the news, details, and complexities. This is NOT TRUE for all who are not yet vaccinated, but I would argue that many are in that category. Some who are not vaccinated have health issues; I am sure there are many and they have legitimate concerns. At least one I know is a woman who has health issues (cancer) and is older.

ONE last point: At this stage, I do not consider you to be the "crème de la crème of humanity." Your proclivity to lie and mislead puts you near the bottom of the barrel of the mix of humanity, imo. You see things only through the lens of how things may or do affect ONLY you. That makes you very myopic and very egotistical. That also makes you likely to be in your 20s.

saxitoxin wrote:By the way, I have a tentative trip to Panama scheduled in October to get the Covaxin vaccine (if WHO gives it an EUA by then which should happen barring issues). It's probably as useful as a saline injection and I don't think I need it but I can unencumber myself from the false narrative that I'm anti vaxx and was planning a holiday in October anyway.

I have no problem with a vaccine made using a 200 year old method. I have a problem with a quickie vaccine made using a brand new, never before used method that was rushed out to make it into a Q4 earnings report by companies with long documented histories of being sued for deadly medicinal screw ups.

So which vaccines are you discussing here?

saxitoxin wrote:By the way, I have a tentative trip to Panama scheduled in October to get the Covaxin vaccine (if WHO gives it an EUA by then which should happen barring issues). It's probably as useful as a saline injection and I don't think I need it but I can unencumber myself from the false narrative that I'm anti vaxx and was planning a holiday in October anyway.

I have no problem with a vaccine made using a 200 year old method. I have a problem with a quickie vaccine made using a brand new, never before used method

Lol, your ever-moving goalposts are showing. You have been anti-vax and only recently started coming around. Now you're going to change the narrative, which is fine. I know that's what you right-wing shills are trained for. But those of us with memories will know that your opposition to the vaccines didn't start with the new mRNA vaccines. Your earliest attacks were on the J&J, which uses an almost archaic deactivated virus vector.

But it's okay, we forgive you. We know you're addicted to spreading bullshit and you just can't do enough of it.

Personally, my money is on the mRNA vaccines as the long-term winners in the race. There is no a priori reason to anticipate problems with them, and if there had been problems they would have shown up by now. Almost five billion doses of the mRNA vaccines have now been administered worldwide, which is a staggering number of data points. It may not be over a long period of time, but the sheer volume of data makes up for its relative novelty. There's no reason to suspect that anything will come up in the long term that hasn't popped up in the short term. These are not like drugs that you take on an ongoing basis -- within a few days your body has broken down almost all of the vaccine, and any reaction that hasn't happened in those first few days isn't going to.

I do plan to collect the others, though. Already have Pfizer and Moderna in me. Next month if the border is finally reopened I'm supposed to be going to Arizona, and I'll try to pick up the J&J while I'm there. Then next spring I'm supposed to be in Prague for a month, so while there it's a short side-trip to zip over to Budapest and get me some Sputnik! Eventually I plan to collect them all. I'm not particularly worried about covid -- my immune system is top notch -- but even though my chance of getting sick is small, the rational thing to do is to make it even smaller. If my chance of getting covid right now is say, 8%, and I can reduce it to 2% with very little cost and effort, then that's what I'll do.

You either don't know how to read or the mRNA spike proteins have an undiagnosed side effect of scrambling brain neurons.

You have been anti-vax

Wrong.

• -I have said four different times in this thread that at-risk people (oldies and fatsos) should be vaccinated with whatever vaccine is available.
  
  -I have also said I have personally been vaccinated as an adult against Hepatitis B, Malaria, and Typhoid.

This is not the profile of someone who is "anti-vax."

and only recently started coming around.

Wrong.

On June 26 I said I would eagerly get the Novavax vaccine if it was released in September. (It's now scheduled for a Q4 release which is why I plan now to get Covaxin.)

Your earliest attacks were on the J&J, which uses an almost archaic deactivated virus vector.

Wrong.

On June 5 I said I would consider getting the J&J vaccine if the COVID-19 mortality profile mutated to include me (it hasn't).

My "attacks" on Johnson & Johnson have never been about their vaccine, it's been about that company's overall safety record. This is not unique to me, people have been attacking J&Js safety record for years. The company is currently planning a bankruptcy declaration - at the same moment they're producing vaccines - over a lawsuit from one of their other products that was found to cause cancer.

To summarize, so there's no ambiguity, my consistent and stable position from the start has been:

• OPINION (WHICH THE CDC AGREES WITH ME ON): 1. Fatties and oldies should get vaccinated ASAP using whatever vaccine is available, including mRNA vaccines.
  
  OPINION (WHICH THE CDC AGREES WITH ME ON): 2. Vaccines like the flu, typhoid, hep, malaria, vaccinations are generally safe and efficacious.
  
  FACT:3. There have been a small number of cases, such as the Cutter Incident and others, where a mass vaccination program has produced serious adverse side effects on a large scale due to unknown consequences that only became apparent after widespread deployment.
  
  OPINION (WHICH THE CDC DISAGREES WITH ME ON BUT A MINORITY OF SCIENCE (e.g. Martin Kulldorff, etc.) AGREES WITH): 4. Groups at low-risk should probably not get vaccinated until a less leaky vaccine becomes available since widespread immunity is an instigator of evasive mutations.
  
  FACT:5. There is no human alive on Earth today who has lived more than 18 months after receiving an mRNA vaccine. We have no data on the safety profile of any mRNA vaccine (not just the COVID-19 vaccines) injected into a human being at the 24- or 36-month marks.
  
  FACT:6. Johnson & Johnson, as a company, has a very poor safety record on both their prescription and OTC products. In many cases, they have produced products that were FDA approved but whose crippling side effects only became apparent years later, at which point they were yanked from shelves. Johnson & Johnson is currently preparing to declare bankruptcy over a $2 billion lawsuit after it was revealed their baby powder caused cancer. Vaccines are more complex than baby powder.
  
  FACT:7. J&J, Pfizer and Moderna are not government agencies, non-profit organizations, or public benefit corporations. They are publicly traded corporations operating under the Friedman Doctrine. They are legally required, under U.S. securities law, to maximize shareholder value before any other consideration.
  
  FACT:8. J&J, Pfizer and Moderna have been granted total immunity from civil lawsuits over their COVID-19 vaccines. In the unlikely event a J&J baby powder incident occurs with the J&J vaccine, the victims are on their own. There is no recourse. In the unlikely event Pfizer is found to have failed to disclose certain issues, like they did with Zyvox just a few years ago, there is no $1.3 billion lawsuit they're facing.
  
  FACT:9. I personally have a less than .001% absolute risk of death from COVID-19, based on biostatistical factors.

Personal Statement: If I were to get vaccinated, I would personally wait until late 2021 when a subunit protein (Novavax) or inactivated virus (Sanofi, Covaxin) vaccine were to become available. I will not get an mRNA vaccine until a minimum of three years of safety data becomes available. I'm not thrilled about viral vector vaccines like Johnson & Johnson but, if the mortality profile of COVID-19 changed significantly, I would absolutely get one, depending on the manufacturer and with a preference against J&J.

Oscar de la Hoya, a professional boxer in peak physical form who was double-vaxxed, is now in the hospital, fighting for his life after contracting COVID-19 it was announced this morning.



The COVID-19 pandemic is now worse in September 2021 - with 83% of America either vaccinated or having contracted immunity - than it was in September 2020 (before there were any vaccines), according to CNBC:

The U.S. is heading into Labor Day weekend with just over four times as many Covid-19 cases and more than twice as many hospitalizations as at this time last year ... The U.S. and the world are nowhere near where health officials hoped, and thought, we would be 20 months into the pandemic — and more than eight months after vaccines that boasted efficacy rates around 95% were rolled out.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/03/us-head ... -year.html

Vitamin D3 and loose 20 lbs.

The world needs a COVID-19 hero!

HitRed wrote:Vitamin D3 and loose 20 lbs.

Good advice. De La Hoya, despite being in great condition, probably had a Vitamin D deficiency.

• - Science says Hispanics are at greater risk of Vitamin D deficiency. [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24871915/#:~:text=The%20highest%20prevalence%20of%20low,risk%20for%20vitamin%20D%20deficiency.]
  
  - Science says 90% of people with severe COVID-19 also have a Vitamin D deficiency. [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33512007/]

saxitoxin wrote:

Fauci is no Richard Simmons. Exercise folks!