Conquer Club

Posted: **Sun Aug 09, 2009 7:24 pm**

PLAYER57832 wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
got tonkaed wrote:Ive been to protests that were denounced by the local media yeah, i went to college in a fairly conservative town. As to politicians i cannot say for certain, though I was protesting around the time when president bush made the famous "i dont listen to focus groups" comment. The point is, opposing politicians would be foolish to not denounce most protesting done on controversial issues from teh opposition. Few political issues are so slam dunk in nature that there isnt some type of contempt and especially on the hot button ones like national healthcare, taxation levels, war efforts, gay marriage and union issues, its pretty easy to see why people would denounce protestors for a variety of political aims.

I would like to reiteriate, anyone using physical violence should absolutly be prosecuted, theres no place for that garbage considering the right to assemble should be granted in a very widespread fashion.

It's not that the senators, representatives, and president and their respective supporters are arguing for their own side. It's the casual way in which they dismiss the opposition, the lack of respectful media coverage of the opposition, and the scare tactics used. And I would say that if this was an anti-war protest during the Bush administration.

I am not sure what media you are listening to, but I have been hearing plenty on BOTH sides.. maybe you need to listen to NPR.

I've been listening to BBC on the radio, and they really haven't said much of anything about those that oppose the Healthcare plans and the whatnot. I might have missed it, but there it is.

Posted: **Sun Aug 09, 2009 10:10 pm**

It's hard to take people seriously when they oppose the new health care plan in the same breath they say that our president is from Kenya. Not everyone does, but many do and so I can't take ANYTHING someone in the birther movement says seriously.

I understand the arguments on both sides of the the nationalized health care debate. I'll just say this - nobody can say for sure whether it would work or not, but it does for the U.K., France, Canada, etc. so I can't see why, if executed properly, it couldn't work here.

Posted: **Sun Aug 09, 2009 11:20 pm**

I haven't read it or even heard enough about it to make an educated decision about it. I've only heard snippits, generalizations about the intent as well as unfounded accusations about what it will do if inacted. Judging solely by protester dialogue on video, signs and quotes in the press I get the feeling that very few protestors have read it either or have much of an understanding about exactly what it is. The President will likely have to go on prime time television to explain exactly what the plan is intended to do, how it will accomplish this goal and what it's merits are.

You can't compare Iraq War protestors to those speaking out on this issue. This is a national debate and the protests against a war by pre-emptively invading Iraq were Worldwide.

Posted: **Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:47 am**

Irony - remember that guy who was "assaulted" by SEIU "thugs" outside Russ Carnahan's townhall? (I use quotes because there's an SEIU guy on the ground, and the protestor is strangely unhurt) Well, he went to the hospital, and guess who's uninsured? If only everybody had a viral video of why they need medical attention to facilitate fundraising. That should be our health plan.

Posted: **Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:52 am**

spurgistan wrote:Irony - remember that guy who was "assaulted" by SEIU "thugs" outside Russ Carnahan's townhall? (I use quotes because there's an SEIU guy on the ground, and the protestor is strangely unhurt) Well, he went to the hospital, and guess who's uninsured? If only everybody had a viral video of why they need medical attention to facilitate fundraising. That should be our health plan.

... That is funny.

...

Posted: **Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:54 am**

spurgistan wrote:Irony - remember that guy who was "assaulted" by SEIU "thugs" outside Russ Carnahan's townhall? (I use quotes because there's an SEIU guy on the ground, and the protestor is strangely unhurt) Well, he went to the hospital, and guess who's uninsured? If only everybody had a viral video of why they need medical attention to facilitate fundraising. That should be our health plan.

Most people know of many who are not only uninsured, but well underinsured. Thing is, they see them as "exceptions". Then you have a whole group that does not truly realize they ARE underinsured (including a number of younger, healthy folks who feel they "don't need" insurance).

Even so, these are why polls generally show over 50% of the population in favor of change. AND it is precisely why the right wing is so intent on passing out misinformation about this bill. Imperfect though it may be, it does represent change.

Posted: **Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:28 am**

Nobunaga wrote:
spurgistan wrote:Irony - remember that guy who was "assaulted" by SEIU "thugs" outside Russ Carnahan's townhall? (I use quotes because there's an SEIU guy on the ground, and the protestor is strangely unhurt) Well, he went to the hospital, and guess who's uninsured? If only everybody had a viral video of why they need medical attention to facilitate fundraising. That should be our health plan.

... That is funny.

COL (chuckling out loud)

Posted: **Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:32 pm**

spurgistan wrote:Irony - remember that guy who was "assaulted" by SEIU "thugs" outside Russ Carnahan's townhall? (I use quotes because there's an SEIU guy on the ground, and the protestor is strangely unhurt) Well, he went to the hospital, and guess who's uninsured? If only everybody had a viral video of why they need medical attention to facilitate fundraising. That should be our health plan.

And yet he still thinks the current plans are bad. :-k

That sure must say something about the merits of the plan.

Posted: **Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:27 pm**

Night Strike wrote:
spurgistan wrote:Irony - remember that guy who was "assaulted" by SEIU "thugs" outside Russ Carnahan's townhall? (I use quotes because there's an SEIU guy on the ground, and the protestor is strangely unhurt) Well, he went to the hospital, and guess who's uninsured? If only everybody had a viral video of why they need medical attention to facilitate fundraising. That should be our health plan.

And yet he still thinks the current plans are bad. That sure must say something about the merits of the plan.

No actually it says something about him.

Posted: **Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:11 pm**

I don't think it's the protesters who are the "astroturf":
http://sacramento.craigslist.org/search/jjj?query=obama&catAbbreviation=jjj

Aug 3 - ***Help Pass Obama's Health Care Plan and Earn $325-$500/Week - (Sacramento, CA)

Aug 4 - Help pass Obama's Health Care Reform!!! Earn $9-14 an hour!!! - (Sacramento)

Posted: **Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:01 pm**

Night Strike wrote:
Aug 3 - ***Help Pass Obama's Health Care Plan and Earn $325-$500/Week - (Sacramento, CA)

Aug 4 - Help pass Obama's Health Care Reform!!! Earn $9-14 an hour!!! - (Sacramento)

Wow! Reforming a broken health care model, AND creating jobs in a recession. How dare they?! :lol:

Posted: **Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:04 pm**

Timminz wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
Aug 3 - ***Help Pass Obama's Health Care Plan and Earn $325-$500/Week - (Sacramento, CA)

Aug 4 - Help pass Obama's Health Care Reform!!! Earn $9-14 an hour!!! - (Sacramento)

Wow! Reforming a broken health care model, AND creating jobs in a recession. How dare they?!

wait wait wait, Astroturfing? No way

Posted: **Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:18 pm**

This may soon become a political limbo contest,
how low can you go?

Posted: **Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:20 pm**

oVo wrote:This may soon become a political limbo contest,
how low can you go?

Posted: **Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:55 pm**

MeDeFe wrote:
Timminz wrote:
F1fth wrote:Everything these days is either going to save America or destroy America; there's no shades of gray, no neutrality, nothing but extremes. That's what bullshit if you ask me.

This is especially true in the context of protests. Unfortunately, there aren't enough people with the motivation to march in the streets shouting, "BE REASONABLE!"

I'd march along with that protest.

WHAT DO WE WANT?
Reasonable, open-ended discussions on the relevant topics!!

WHEN DO WE WANT IT?
Whenever you guys are ready to stop ranting...

Posted: **Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:41 pm**

... It's anger well deserved that these reps are facing at the town halls. These guys (the reps) don't even know the contents of the bill yet they are out there defending it with talking points from Axlerod and the White House, defended by union thugs exempt from the contents of the bill.

... When asked a question concerning specific points of the bill, the constituents rightly expect more than an "Uh... uh... that's an exaggeration .... Uh... " (consults the Axlerod manual) "... That is an untruth perpetrated by the talk radio likes of racist Rush Limbaugh. I came here to tell you the truth". ...

... Sad thing is these reps are labelling these points as exaggerations and untruths, labelling constituents as Nazis and fascists while the protestors are reading from the bill itself.

... These protestors are already labelled a mob, they should start acting like one, in true Lib style. Maybe go burn a few cars, maybe invade the reps' offices and throw stuff out through the windows onto the street below to cheering crowds. Maybe folks here will start a thread to track and cheer them on (as was done here in the past).

....

Posted: **Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:06 pm**

AgentSmith88 wrote:It's hard to take people seriously when they oppose the new health care plan in the same breath they say that our president is from Kenya. Not everyone does, but many do and so I can't take ANYTHING someone in the birther movement says seriously.

That's understandable. And, unfortunately, the reasonable voices that oppose the healthcare plan are either drowned out by the same people who think the president was born in Africa or are ignored by most media outlets (or the birthers are celebrated by Fox... either way). It's probably a combination of both.

Posted: **Tue Aug 11, 2009 7:16 pm**

thegreekdog wrote:(or the birthers are celebrated by Fox... either way)

Now that's not true from what I've seen. That was Lou Dobbs on CNN pushing the Birth Certificate stuff. The only things I've seen on Fox have been replies his comments.

Nobunaga wrote:Sad thing is these reps are labelling these points as exaggerations and untruths, labelling constituents as Nazis and fascists while the protestors are reading from the bill itself.

I've been wondering about that a lot over the past few days, but I haven't had time to dig into it much. Frequently I hear the protesters reading from the bills and asking a question from that. Even if their interpretation is exaggerated, how many representatives have given answers directly from the bills? My hunch is that their answers are based more on talking points than bullet points.

Posted: **Tue Aug 11, 2009 7:31 pm**

Night Strike wrote:
Nobunaga wrote:Sad thing is these reps are labelling these points as exaggerations and untruths, labelling constituents as Nazis and fascists while the protestors are reading from the bill itself.

I've been wondering about that a lot over the past few days, but I haven't had time to dig into it much. Frequently I hear the protesters reading from the bills and asking a question from that. Even if their interpretation is exaggerated, how many representatives have given answers directly from the bills? My hunch is that their answers are based more on talking points than bullet points.

There are groups of idiots on both sides. The rest of us need to ignore them and look at what the bills really say, write or call our representatives with our opinion. Then it won't matter how many idiots shout at "town meetings".

Per the "is it the right or the left?" The hype came because a few from the definite right, definitely anti Health reform camp posted instructions for "how to get your voice heard", which somehow sounded suspiciously like "how to disrupt a meeting" to others.

As for the "reading the bill", you cannot take bits and pieces of "legaleeze" out of context and hope to make sense. Look at the other thread, where bdub keeps insisting, no matter what anyone says, that insurance companies won't be able to issue new policies because there is a pretty standard "grandfather" type clause that says no old policies may be issues, they have to change to meet new critera.

Posted: **Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:33 pm**

... PLAYER, do you take any issue with the Feds "visiting" your home to ensure that you are bringing your kids up right? That's on page eight hundred something... 837?

... I take issue with this.

...

Posted: **Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:45 pm**

Nobunaga wrote:... PLAYER, do you take any issue with the Feds "visiting" your home to ensure that you are bringing your kids up right? That's on page eight hundred something... 837?

... I take issue with this.

...

Give me a link? So I can see it in context, because I don't know remember any such clause.

Anyhow, the real truth is that they have the right to do this anyway. Any police officer, EMT, doctor, nurse, teacher, childcare provider and many others (varies a bit by state) are "mandated reporters". That means that if I suspect that you might be abusing your child, I am required by law to file a report with Children and Youth Services (or whatever is the proper agency in the state).

Also, even just observing abuse is itself abuse. As in, if you hit your wife or abuse your children or even have serious fights (I mean real fights, not just major disagreements -- calling serious names, throwing things, etc.) it can be considered abuse.

And yes, I do think the law at times goes too far, but at other times does not go far enough. I know a great deal about that particular subject, and can get into more in another thread if you wish. (preferably in RU)

Posted: **Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:32 am**

Wow, the only thing that's a Hardball in this interview is how fixated Cynthia Tucker is on race. She claims that 45-65% of the protesters at these town halls are motivated by Obama's race in that they would never be comfortable with a black president (roughly halfway into the video). Not only is that completely irrelevant to the health care topic, but there is no way that many people who are protesting are also racist. What's also interesting at the very end of the clip is the guy's comment about how the debate will be able to clarify in September after the bipartisan Senate talks dissolve. I thought Obama campaigned on bipartisanship?

http://www.thefoxnation.com/town-hall-protests/2009/08/10/cynthia-tucker-town-hall-protesters-are-racists

Posted: **Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:39 am**

Night Strike wrote:Wow, the only thing that's a Hardball in this interview is how fixated Cynthia Tucker is on race. She claims that 45-65% of the protesters at these town halls are motivated by Obama's race in that they would never be comfortable with a black president (roughly halfway into the video). Not only is that completely irrelevant to the health care topic, but there is no way that many people who are protesting are also racist. What's also interesting at the very end of the clip is the guy's comment about how the debate will be able to clarify in September after the bipartisan Senate talks dissolve. I thought Obama campaigned on bipartisanship?

http://www.thefoxnation.com/town-hall-protests/2009/08/10/cynthia-tucker-town-hall-protesters-are-racists

... Criticism becomes racism by default. Who didn't see this coming? A convenient and simple way to marginalize Americans with true concerns. Paint them the villains.

...

Posted: **Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:35 am**

Nobunaga wrote:
Night Strike wrote:Wow, the only thing that's a Hardball in this interview is how fixated Cynthia Tucker is on race. She claims that 45-65% of the protesters at these town halls are motivated by Obama's race in that they would never be comfortable with a black president (roughly halfway into the video). Not only is that completely irrelevant to the health care topic, but there is no way that many people who are protesting are also racist. What's also interesting at the very end of the clip is the guy's comment about how the debate will be able to clarify in September after the bipartisan Senate talks dissolve. I thought Obama campaigned on bipartisanship?

http://www.thefoxnation.com/town-hall-protests/2009/08/10/cynthia-tucker-town-hall-protesters-are-racists

... Criticism becomes racism by default. Who didn't see this coming? A convenient and simple way to marginalize Americans with true concerns. Paint them the villains.

...

As has been said many times, there are plenty of idiots on ALL sides. Focusing on them only gives them more power, not less.

Posted: **Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:02 pm**

PLAYER57832 wrote:As has been said many times, there are plenty of idiots on ALL sides. Focusing on them only gives them more power, not less.

It also gives the opponents more power. If one side can show the other side to be buffoons, the first side can potentially win an argument with nothing else.

Conquer Club

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