Are athiests more intelligent than theists?

[Neoteny]

Damn, you guys are messing with my puny 13 year-old mind. Sure, I have thought about death before, and for literally hours and hours about how dark energy is expanding the universe and the whole universe gets fucked in the end. Then I see everyone around me, superficial assholes, wondering if they have even got a clue whats going on in my mind, and if they have even the faintest clue of how miserable their lives are going to be when they grow up (I'm not saying mine isn't). Then I think about God, and I can perfectly understand atheists' points of view on life, then I look at my religious upbringings (Judaism), and try and see the it, and all other religions, are just a way to try and define the undefinable and what we are and why we are here. Then I think about my life, and my friends, and whats going to happen to me in the future, then I scold myself for being so superficial, and only worrying about myself, while there are so many horrors in the world. Then I find myself up at 1:30 in the morning, usually the time when I am attempting to fall asleep but actually thinking all the things that I have just described to you, and then I am freaked the hell out. THEN, finally, the saying "ignorance is bliss" finally comes into affect and I fall asleep, forgetting about everything I had just though about until the following night, and my life is just a repetitive cycle. Then I think that the point of life is to be happy. No, its to find true love. No, its to get stoned and smashed every night and having fun. No, everybody just dies sad and alone and realize that they have done nothing with their lives. Then, of course, as I think everyone else who thinks like I think (not quite sure how many people that is), thinks of committing suicide just to simplify things.

Then i find myself at 1:35 in the morning writing a response to a 4-page long thread, wondering if anyone will take the writings of a 13 year-old seriously, even wondering if this has anything to do with the topic. Well, I said what needed to be said, and I hope it can somehow contribute to your conversation.

Deeper thoughts than I had when I was thirteen... I'll give you credit for that. I can't suggest much other than keep on keeping on. Keep an open mind. Check and recheck everything. Avoid Nappy (irony, ok read one or two of his posts, then avoid him). And take it the hell easy. You're thirteen. You have plenty of time to ponder the deep dark mysteries of the universe. Keep it casual for now. I think you're supposed to be probing the deep, dark secrets of the opposite sex at the moment (figuratively, of course). Eventually you'll learn to give up on both deep, dark fronts (nobody has a friggin clue) and go with whatever the hell makes the most sense at the moment.

[Colossus]

Neutrino, you're talking about a fantasy. Billions or trillions of years??? That is so far beyond what a human can actually conceive that trying to reason out God in that context seems a bit irrational to me. I'm no cosmologist, I'm no historian, and I'm no expert philosopher. All I'm saying is that an argument against the existence of God because the world is not idyllic and because the human lifespan is limited has no scientific basis. Beyond the scientific context is where my knowledge ends and my faith takes over, so we could have that argument forever and never convince each other.

Neo...why Christianity? The truth is that it's Christianity for me because I was raised that way and it is the tradition that resonates with me the most spiritually. I haven't really tried lots of other traditions in terms of ritual, but I have learned a little bit about the history and belief system of most other major religions. From my perspective, there is a huge difference between faith and religion. Religion is all the details, the rules, the rituals. Faith is faith. Real faith, to me, comes to people from having spiritual experiences. Another fantastic book on this subject: 'Why God Won't Go Away' by Andrew Newberg. He's a neuroscientist (incidentally from Penn) who studies the brain biology of belief. He has shown that there are characteristic patterns of brain activity involved during spiritual experience, and that these patters of activity are the same for Catholic nuns, Buddhist monks, evangelical Christians, and tribal shamans. The ways that the brain gets to this characteristic state differ, but the end result seems to be the same. Basically the end result seems to be the shutting down of the part of the brain that distinguishes self from non-self. This is another book that is really well written in that it draws no conclusions about whether spiritual experience is a real communion with God or an illusion. In the end, that decision has to be a matter of faith, too. So, for me the Christian traditions and prayers and framework of faith (roughly since I'm not one of those Catholics who believes whatever the Church tells me to believe) are the ones that resonate with me the most. I get the most spiritual experience out of Mass because the ritual serves a biological purpose toward spiritual experience. I'm also not one of those folks who's going to come out and say that Christ is THE SAVIOR and he's the only way to salvation. I don't believe in a God who uses societal patterns and birthright to determine who gets 'saved'. Anyway, it's a great book, and if you're interested, you should read it.

LYR, hey man, I gotta agree with Neo on this one. I thought a little bit about this stuff when I was your age, but not to the extent that we're discussing it. I've spent a lot of time struggling with what I believe, and you know what the crux of my belief system is?
1. Live today the best you can and enjoy it, because right NOW is all that we really have.
2. Foster good relationships and be good to people because that's the way we make our impact on the world (do unto others as you would have done unto you...). The work we do, in the long run, doesn't mean much, but the lives we touch, the lives we enhance do. I'd rather love and be loved than be famous or wealthy.
3. He who know he has enough is rich. That's from the Tao Te Ching (another great book). If you choose to be satisfied with what you have, every day of your life will be happy, and I think that's what God really asks of us, to do the best we can with what we have and be thankful for it.

So, I've wasted lots of time doing this kind of bantering instead of just living my life. Which is why I'm gonna go get work done now (which I should have been doing yesterday), and then I'm gonna have a couple of beers and hopefully watch my Patriots kick the crap out of the Giants! Belichick for President!

[bryguy]

Damn, you guys are messing with my puny 13 year-old mind. Sure, I have thought about death before, and for literally hours and hours about how dark energy is expanding the universe and the whole universe gets fucked in the end. Then I see everyone around me, superficial assholes, wondering if they have even got a clue whats going on in my mind, and if they have even the faintest clue of how miserable their lives are going to be when they grow up (I'm not saying mine isn't). Then I think about God, and I can perfectly understand atheists' points of view on life, then I look at my religious upbringings (Judaism), and try and see the it, and all other religions, are just a way to try and define the undefinable and what we are and why we are here. Then I think about my life, and my friends, and whats going to happen to me in the future, then I scold myself for being so superficial, and only worrying about myself, while there are so many horrors in the world. Then I find myself up at 1:30 in the morning, usually the time when I am attempting to fall asleep but actually thinking all the things that I have just described to you, and then I am freaked the hell out. THEN, finally, the saying "ignorance is bliss" finally comes into affect and I fall asleep, forgetting about everything I had just though about until the following night, and my life is just a repetitive cycle. Then I think that the point of life is to be happy. No, its to find true love. No, its to get stoned and smashed every night and having fun. No, everybody just dies sad and alone and realize that they have done nothing with their lives. Then, of course, as I think everyone else who thinks like I think (not quite sure how many people that is), thinks of committing suicide just to simplify things.

Then i find myself at 1:35 in the morning writing a response to a 4-page long thread, wondering if anyone will take the writings of a 13 year-old seriously, even wondering if this has anything to do with the topic. Well, I said what needed to be said, and I hope it can somehow contribute to your conversation.

Deeper thoughts than I had when I was thirteen... I'll give you credit for that.

heh, my thoughts are deeper....


no wonder i usually have headaches

[brianm]

I agree with the sum of your religion should not be the text that should be a guide to you in understanding that religion. After all, even highly scientific journals are full of inconsistencies, inaccuracies, and false premises. That does not mean the whole thing is a load of crap.

I think that people who dwell upon the minutia of whether God took exactly seven 24-hour days to create the world miss the whole point of the MESSAGE that the Genesis story brings. So, I can truthfully say that I believe every word as written in the Bible, because I understand that parts of the Bible are allegory and meant to make you THINK about your spirituality, it's not meant to be a field manual for mind-numbed robots. God gave you a mind to think with, and a free will so that YOU ALONE choose to love God and by extension all of his creation (and all of your fellow human beings, even the ones that don't love you back). You also have the free will to pursue a life of self-stimulation and enslavement to the pleasures of the body (as opposed to the pleasures of the soul) EVEN TO THE POINT of self-destruction and sociopathic activities (which account for more of the bad things that have occured in the world than any religous zealot has committed, though religous zealots are definately a strong second).

As a famous scientist once said, I find it hard to believe that God would give us a mind, and then not expect us to use it.

[Gregrios]

Damn, you guys are messing with my puny 13 year-old mind. Sure, I have thought about death before, and for literally hours and hours about how dark energy is expanding the universe and the whole universe gets fucked in the end. Then I see everyone around me, superficial assholes, wondering if they have even got a clue whats going on in my mind, and if they have even the faintest clue of how miserable their lives are going to be when they grow up (I'm not saying mine isn't). Then I think about God, and I can perfectly understand atheists' points of view on life, then I look at my religious upbringings (Judaism), and try and see the it, and all other religions, are just a way to try and define the undefinable and what we are and why we are here. Then I think about my life, and my friends, and whats going to happen to me in the future, then I scold myself for being so superficial, and only worrying about myself, while there are so many horrors in the world. Then I find myself up at 1:30 in the morning, usually the time when I am attempting to fall asleep but actually thinking all the things that I have just described to you, and then I am freaked the hell out. THEN, finally, the saying "ignorance is bliss" finally comes into affect and I fall asleep, forgetting about everything I had just though about until the following night, and my life is just a repetitive cycle. Then I think that the point of life is to be happy. No, its to find true love. No, its to get stoned and smashed every night and having fun. No, everybody just dies sad and alone and realize that they have done nothing with their lives. Then, of course, as I think everyone else who thinks like I think (not quite sure how many people that is), thinks of committing suicide just to simplify things.

Then i find myself at 1:35 in the morning writing a response to a 4-page long thread, wondering if anyone will take the writings of a 13 year-old seriously, even wondering if this has anything to do with the topic. Well, I said what needed to be said, and I hope it can somehow contribute to your conversation.

If you can manage to look outside the box then there's nothing wrong with thinking about anything you desire. But if you stay in that box that's called, "Immagination = Loony", then thinking about these type of things won't do you any good.

In today's society this is the concept: Thinking = Truth, Truth = You must be loony. Thinking outside of the box is in my opinion the best asset that man has. An asset that's making a comeback.

[brianm]

Thinking outside of the box is in my opinion the best asset that man has. An asset that's making a comeback.

Can I get an 'amen' to that.

[william18]

No

[Neutrino]

I wasn't arguing against the existence of God because the human lifespan is limited, but because humanity's lifespan is limited. We're God's crowning achievement, or at the very least made in it's image. To an eternal God, any finite time, no matter how long, will be so short as to be effectively zero. Why would God create the universe, only for it to persist for an infinitely small amount of time, as seen from it's perspective? I understand that God is fully capable of stopping any unwelcome explosions from going off in our back yard, but eventually entropy will get us. It makes no sense for God to create a universe where God's favourite toy will eventually be Heat Death'd or Proton Decay'd or Total Existence Failured out of existence.

[Gregrios]

Just to back you up. Doesn't it say in the Bible that if God didn't cut the time of the end short, then man would cause their own exstinction. So your comments are fully confirmed by God's word itself.

[Neoteny]

After all, even highly scientific journals are full of inconsistencies, inaccuracies, and false premises.

Eh, what?

[UnderSeage]

Atheists are superior beings because they are not duped by organized religion. Think for yourself and know the truth

[LYR]

Underseage, just because humanity wants to find some meaning in life, when they know they can't, doesn't make them idiots. They just want to know that they have a purpose in life, and, hell, maybe their right, and God really does exist. Everyone has a God. Even if you are not religious, I'm sure that you must believe in some higher being that created us all. However, I do agree with you that organized religion does have its faults, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't help the billions and billions of people on earth get through a terrible depression. You should thank your lives for organized religion, for, without it, this world would have no morales and it would be a terrible place to live in (just look at the story of noah and the ark).

[Grooveman2007]

Underseage, just because humanity wants to find some meaning in life, when they know they can't, doesn't make them idiots. They just want to know that they have a purpose in life, and, hell, maybe their right, and God really does exist. Everyone has a God. Even if you are not religious, I'm sure that you must believe in some higher being that created us all. However, I do agree with you that organized religion does have its faults, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't help the billions and billions of people on earth get through a terrible depression. You should thank your lives for organized religion, for, without it, this world would have no morales and it would be a terrible place to live in (just look at the story of noah and the ark).

I would actually look more at the story of Jonah and the Whale (yes, I know that it probably never happened, but I tend to look at the Bible metaphorically). Jonah was a man who had fled from God, and shunned him from his life. Yet when things got tough, and as Jonah lost hope, he turned to God for guidance. My point: When one's situation becomes desperate, when humans are facing death in the eye, when they need just one faint glimmer of hope, they turn to God. When you live a nice, sheltered, secular life, it is easy to mock religion has medieval superstition, as nonsense that belongs in the 10th century. But when you are are on your deathbed,I doubt that your thoughts would be "well, in a few hours I'll just be another rotting corpse." No you will be looking at heavan and awaiting eternal peace and joy. That is why places like Sub-Saharan Africa have such a high number of belivers, because all they have is hope. Without hope, humanity would've resigned itself to death and defeat centuries ago. Without God, humanity would've given up and withered away. The idea of God lifts people from their fears and tells them to keep going forward. After all, there are no atheists in foxholes.

[OnlyAmbrose]

I think it just depends on the person. There are plenty of stupid atheists and plenty of stupid theists. The stupid theists just tend to have more hot air to let out, partially because there's more of them then there are atheists (I'm not saying percentage wise, I'm saying cold hard actual numbers).

QFT

[OnlyAmbrose]

Atheists are superior beings because they are not duped by organized religion. Think for yourself and know the truth

That presupposes that we're duped...

[Anarkistsdream]

Underseage, just because humanity wants to find some meaning in life, when they know they can't, doesn't make them idiots. They just want to know that they have a purpose in life, and, hell, maybe their right, and God really does exist. Everyone has a God. Even if you are not religious, I'm sure that you must believe in some higher being that created us all. However, I do agree with you that organized religion does have its faults, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't help the billions and billions of people on earth get through a terrible depression. You should thank your lives for organized religion, for, without it, this world would have no morales and it would be a terrible place to live in (just look at the story of noah and the ark).

What about all of the people that are true atheists that believe that once you die you turn to dirt?

Not everyone has a god.

[got tonkaed]

eh i think its the right argument stated the wrong way. All of us, theist, nontheist, sort of theist, or maybe even considering theists on the weekends at the beach, have some sort of "God". Some guy once, im sure my prof of soc of religion is thrilled at my memory, identified the notion of god as the "ultimate concern". Essentially the theory is all of us have something external to ourselves that when we wake up each day, gets us out of the bed in the morning. Whatever that thing is, its your ultimate concern, and by extension your notion of the other, "god" in less holy terms.

[Anarkistsdream]

eh i think its the right argument stated the wrong way. All of us, theist, nontheist, sort of theist, or maybe even considering theists on the weekends at the beach, have some sort of "God". Some guy once, im sure my prof of soc of religion is thrilled at my memory, identified the notion of god as the "ultimate concern". Essentially the theory is all of us have something external to ourselves that when we wake up each day, gets us out of the bed in the morning. Whatever that thing is, its your ultimate concern, and by extension your notion of the other, "god" in less holy terms.

What if you are like my brother, who only gets out of bed so he can work to pay for his drug habit?

He believes in nothing before and after life

[Neoteny]

Underseage, just because humanity wants to find some meaning in life, when they know they can't, doesn't make them idiots. They just want to know that they have a purpose in life, and, hell, maybe their right, and God really does exist. Everyone has a God. Even if you are not religious, I'm sure that you must believe in some higher being that created us all. However, I do agree with you that organized religion does have its faults, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't help the billions and billions of people on earth get through a terrible depression. You should thank your lives for organized religion, for, without it, this world would have no morales and it would be a terrible place to live in (just look at the story of noah and the ark).

I would actually look more at the story of Jonah and the Whale (yes, I know that it probably never happened, but I tend to look at the Bible metaphorically). Jonah was a man who had fled from God, and shunned him from his life. Yet when things got tough, and as Jonah lost hope, he turned to God for guidance. My point: When one's situation becomes desperate, when humans are facing death in the eye, when they need just one faint glimmer of hope, they turn to God. When you live a nice, sheltered, secular life, it is easy to mock religion has medieval superstition, as nonsense that belongs in the 10th century. But when you are are on your deathbed,I doubt that your thoughts would be "well, in a few hours I'll just be another rotting corpse." No you will be looking at heavan and awaiting eternal peace and joy. That is why places like Sub-Saharan Africa have such a high number of belivers, because all they have is hope. Without hope, humanity would've resigned itself to death and defeat centuries ago. Without God, humanity would've given up and withered away. The idea of God lifts people from their fears and tells them to keep going forward. After all, there are no atheists in foxholes.

And people wonder why some atheists dislike religion so much. This is an excellent example of a the condescending tone inherent in a theist perspective. "Without people like us, humanity would fail." Who are you to say what an atheist thinks before he or she dies? If I were in a foxhole, I would be pissed off, and still a fucking atheist. What the hell is wrong with you people. Who do you think you are?

[Grooveman2007]

eh i think its the right argument stated the wrong way. All of us, theist, nontheist, sort of theist, or maybe even considering theists on the weekends at the beach, have some sort of "God". Some guy once, im sure my prof of soc of religion is thrilled at my memory, identified the notion of god as the "ultimate concern". Essentially the theory is all of us have something external to ourselves that when we wake up each day, gets us out of the bed in the morning. Whatever that thing is, its your ultimate concern, and by extension your notion of the other, "god" in less holy terms.

What if you are like my brother, who only gets out of bed so he can work to pay for his drug habit?

He believes in nothing before and after life

Well now that's a very sad story, I hope your brother can find happiness in something other than drugs.

[OnlyAmbrose]

Underseage, just because humanity wants to find some meaning in life, when they know they can't, doesn't make them idiots. They just want to know that they have a purpose in life, and, hell, maybe their right, and God really does exist. Everyone has a God. Even if you are not religious, I'm sure that you must believe in some higher being that created us all. However, I do agree with you that organized religion does have its faults, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't help the billions and billions of people on earth get through a terrible depression. You should thank your lives for organized religion, for, without it, this world would have no morales and it would be a terrible place to live in (just look at the story of noah and the ark).

What about all of the people that are true atheists that believe that once you die you turn to dirt?

Not everyone has a god.

"God" is whatever you deem to be eternal, because whatever is eternal defies conventional logic.

For some atheists, the universe is god. Though now for some atheists, the quantum theory is God, this unproven idea that stuff just pops in and out of existence. Totally defies reason, but there it is, like God.

It's still a God.

[got tonkaed]

under that premise, then drugs are his ulitmate concern or more specific reaching a high.

I dont think the theory requires the ultimate concern to in any way be a positive one. Its the same type of thing as people who only wake up each day to make more and more money, even if it doesnt ultimatly lead to a fulfilling life, that is their "god" so to speak.

I agree though, that is a pretty tough and ultimatly sad way to try and keep on going.

[Anarkistsdream]

You're telling me, GT... Dealing with an older brother with that sort of viewpoint is fairly depressing. But I try to lay off him as much as possible, since he gets so much shit from my family.

[Grooveman2007]

Underseage, just because humanity wants to find some meaning in life, when they know they can't, doesn't make them idiots. They just want to know that they have a purpose in life, and, hell, maybe their right, and God really does exist. Everyone has a God. Even if you are not religious, I'm sure that you must believe in some higher being that created us all. However, I do agree with you that organized religion does have its faults, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't help the billions and billions of people on earth get through a terrible depression. You should thank your lives for organized religion, for, without it, this world would have no morales and it would be a terrible place to live in (just look at the story of noah and the ark).

I would actually look more at the story of Jonah and the Whale (yes, I know that it probably never happened, but I tend to look at the Bible metaphorically). Jonah was a man who had fled from God, and shunned him from his life. Yet when things got tough, and as Jonah lost hope, he turned to God for guidance. My point: When one's situation becomes desperate, when humans are facing death in the eye, when they need just one faint glimmer of hope, they turn to God. When you live a nice, sheltered, secular life, it is easy to mock religion has medieval superstition, as nonsense that belongs in the 10th century. But when you are are on your deathbed,I doubt that your thoughts would be "well, in a few hours I'll just be another rotting corpse." No you will be looking at heavan and awaiting eternal peace and joy. That is why places like Sub-Saharan Africa have such a high number of belivers, because all they have is hope. Without hope, humanity would've resigned itself to death and defeat centuries ago. Without God, humanity would've given up and withered away. The idea of God lifts people from their fears and tells them to keep going forward. After all, there are no atheists in foxholes.

And people wonder why some atheists dislike religion so much. This is an excellent example of a the condescending tone inherent in a theist perspective. "Without people like us, humanity would fail." Who are you to say what an atheist thinks before he or she dies? If I were in a foxhole, I would be pissed off, and still a fucking atheist. What the hell is wrong with you people. Who do you think you are?

Would life be worth living without hope?

[got tonkaed]

You're telling me, GT... Dealing with an older brother with that sort of viewpoint is fairly depressing. But I try to lay off him as much as possible, since he gets so much shit from my family.

yeah, i think someone said once that its never just one person who suffers from addiction in that sense. Its a pretty hard line to tow for everyone in the family id think, because being the older brother is a certain role your supposed to play as part of a family. When something like drugs changes that, its pretty hard to know how your supposed to deal with something like that.

its just one of those shitty situations that happens far too often in this thing called life.