Global Warming Stuff

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Metsfanmax
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Re: Global Warming Stuff

Post by Metsfanmax »

mrswdk wrote:
If BBS were here he would probably ask what benefits climate change would bring, and whether or not those outweigh the damages. Was that question ever answered on here? I forget.


We never got into it in too much detail because it is a complicated discussion to try to list all of the benefits and harms. It is also, to me, a meaningless question to ask about a global cost-benefit analysis because the costs and benefits are not shared equally among all. If a few small island nations disappear but the GDP of the US increases by 1%, that could very well be net-beneficial to the world's economic output but it would be difficult to argue that it was a just state of affairs.


If that growth in the global economy benefits more people than are disadvantaged by having to relocate, then why spend time, effort and resources fighting the change?


There are many possible things to think about here, but the concept of utility will suffice. $100 gained by an American is not the same amount of utility as the utility lost by a Kenyan who loses $100.
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Re: Global Warming Stuff

Post by mrswdk »

Assuming that the trade-off is an islander having to pay $100 to relocate and an American getting a $100 pay rise.
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Re: Global Warming Stuff

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mrswdk wrote:Assuming that it's as simple as an islander having to pay $100 to relocate and an American getting a $100 pay rise.


Of course it is not that simple. The point is that if you attempted to make an objective global cost-benefit analysis of climate change, the utility increases to the global wealthy would have to be larger than the utility losses to the global poor in order for climate change to be net-beneficial, and that would require the economic benefits to the global wealthy to be much larger than the economic losses to the global poor.
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Re: Global Warming Stuff

Post by mrswdk »

I never said the benefits would be felt by the wealthy. Maybe the benefits are being felt by Chinese farmers who are poorer than the islanders who are relocating.
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Re: Global Warming Stuff

Post by got tonkaed »

There is also the issue of everyone's care hard only going so far which is why it doesn't really matter to most people about an island that is really far away.

Finding ways to incentivize better consumption and greater efficiency is enough of a challenge as it stands.
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Re: Global Warming Stuff

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got tonkaed wrote:I guess something that has always kind of confused me to some extent is the way which people seem to really fight against the endgame of climate policy.

To me on a simple level, it seems like making businesses more efficient and homes more eco-friendly probably just ends up saving people money in the long run. It also seems philosophically better to be like, we took steps to try and make things better for our descendants rather than eh screw 'em.

Certainly it is a lot more complicated than that and you deal with bureaucracy and big government. It just seems like people from the get go dislike the idea of positively impacting climate change, which seems odd.

Unfortunately, just like any other problem in the world, there is nothing that the politicians can't twist into a game to line their pockets.

Let's take my pet peeve, paper recycling.

The politicians have sold the idea that recycling our paper is essential to saving the environment. In fact it is not. Trees grow. They are plants, no less than tomatoes or cucumbers, and with proper encouragement we could farm trees in any quantity needed. Furthermore, it doesn't have to be trees. There are many plants -- flax and papyrus and hemp to name just a few -- that produce fiber that can be used in paper products to supplement the wood pulp.

Now, there is a deforestation problem in the world, but it has nothing to do with paper production. The great forests that are being mowed down in places like Brazil or Indonesia are not being mowed down to make paper or wood products. They're being mowed down because the people in those countries are breeding like locusts and demanding more agricultural land.

Most of the great paper-exporting countries -- China, Canada, the U.S., South Korea, Sweden, Germany -- have responsible replanting practices. The only one of the deforesting countries that cracks the Top 10 is Brazil, and it's seventh or something. Germany, with forest lands that wouldn't make a decent-sized county in Canada, is the world's third-largest paper producer. That's mostly based on responsible replanting practices, and also on significant recycling, and also to some degree on some alternate paper crops like hemp. Sweden has one-quarter of one percent of the world's forests, but it exports 10% of the world's paper.

So, deforestation and paper production are almost completely unrelated, but most people don't bother to educate themselves that much. The politicians and their stooges in the media plant a simple idea in their lazy brains -- paper = cutting down trees = deforestation -- and leave it at that. Probably half of all the people dutifully putting their coffee cup in the recycling bin think they are helping to fight deforestation.

Meanwhile, what are the real consequences of paper recycling? We've already established that it doesn't save any forests. However, now instead of one garbage truck going down my street every week, there are two, one to pick up garbage and the other to pick up recycling. At the very least that's twice as much diesel being burned and going chug, chug, chug into our atmosphere. The trucks don't just burn fuel when they're moving. There's a lot of emissions created in manufacturing the steel in those trucks and the rubber they ride on. There's extra wear and tear on the roads and there's extra land paved over to park those trucks at night.

Supply of recycled paper is forever greater than demand, so some of that paper has to be shopped around, rebundled, and sometimes hauled for hundreds of miles before it finds a mill that will take it. That's more diesel going chug, chug, chug into our atmosphere.

The unsold paper sits in bales behind the mills until they can find a buyer. It rots, putting methane into the atmosphere. If it was thrown into the dump that methane would be mostly trapped underground and be the fossil fuel for some distant-future descendants of ours, but instead it just floats into the atmosphere freely from open bales behind the mill, and contributes to the greenhouse effect.

One of the largest paper recycling mills in Ontario is not five miles from my house. In twenty years I've seen it go bankrupt and be bought by a new owner four times. If it happened once, you could say "bad management" but four times in twenty years is a symptom showing a systemic underlying problem. The natural demand for recycled paper is low and the natural supply is high. If we had a free market, the supply would decline until the price rose to a level at which people could make money on it, but because the supply is inflated not through market forces but through political fiat, the price drops to the point where everybody in the business is barely scraping by.

Paper recycling is a big hassle for everyone. When we all had one garbage can in the kitchen it could be hidden discretely in a corner. Now that we all have three or four garbage cans for the different classes of garbage they almost demand a room to themselves. The only people that benefit are the politicians who require bribes and kickbacks before handing out the municipal garbage-hauling contracts, and then get their picture taken for the newspaper standing beside the shiny new garbage truck.

So, unfortunately there is a lot of pork-barreling involved in the environmental world. The politicians have taught us to be cynical. The climate change deniers are wrong, but I'm sympathetic to their feelings.
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Re: Global Warming Stuff

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Dukasaur wrote:Now, there is a deforestation problem in the world, but it has nothing to do with paper production. The great forests that are being mowed down in places like Brazil or Indonesia are not being mowed down to make paper or wood products. They're being mowed down because the people in those countries are breeding like locusts and demanding more agricultural land.


The fertility rates* I can find for Brazil and Indonesia are, respectively, 1.8 and 2.09, and rates are falling fast in both countries. Given that a fertility rate of 2.1 is needed for a population to sustain its current levels, this means that Brazil is already set to start shrinking and Indonesia will imminently be following suit.

Trees of the tropical world, rejoice.

*number of children being born per adult woman
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Re: Global Warming Stuff

Post by mrswdk »

I thought trees in Brazil were being chopped down so that McDonald's can farm its cows.
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Re: Global Warming Stuff

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mrswdk wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:Now, there is a deforestation problem in the world, but it has nothing to do with paper production. The great forests that are being mowed down in places like Brazil or Indonesia are not being mowed down to make paper or wood products. They're being mowed down because the people in those countries are breeding like locusts and demanding more agricultural land.


The fertility rates* I can find for Brazil and Indonesia are, respectively, 1.8 and 2.09, and rates are falling fast in both countries. Given that a fertility rate of 2.1 is needed for a population to sustain its current levels, this means that Brazil is already set to start shrinking and Indonesia will imminently be following suit.

Trees of the tropical world, rejoice.

*number of children being born per adult woman

When I was a kid the population of Brazil was 70 million and Indonesia 85 million. Today, they are at 212 million and 255 million, respectively. Maybe their birth rates are finally settling down (thank God!) but it still means then have more than tripled in my lifetime. Maybe the future will be better, but the damage to their forests has been done.

Furthermore, more damage is yet to be done. A great part of those millions are still children. Even if the population stops growing now, they won't stop demanding more land for another twenty or thirty years.
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Re: Global Warming Stuff

Post by nietzsche »

Metsfanmax wrote:
nietzsche wrote:Still trying to ridicule and still annoyed. You didn't need to prove my point.


This is hardly about ridicule. I don't blame Phatscotty for not being an expert on climate science; few are. However, I have the reasonable expectation that when people don't really know anythign about a subject, that they shut the f*ck up about it and listen to the people who do. There's really nothing glamorous about opening your mouth when you should be listening instead.


You're still annoyed dude, what can I say. Maybe it's been a long time trying to convince others to think like you in this topic. I'm not trolling you.


Metsfanmax wrote:Imagine making this comment in nearly any other context, to see how straight up absurd it is. It is only the politicized nature of climate science lately that allows anyone to get away with it. I can just envision the thread now: demonfork posts a video about a perpetual motion machine and how the party line on the second law of thermodynamics is bullshit, and nietzsche praises him for his sincere willingness to criticize well-ensconced ideas.


You're right here, it's a different matter. Maybe because some get fucking tired of idiots telling you what to do, in many different ways, from patronizing mode, to the higher moral standpoint mode, to the bombarding with ads mode, to the i-know-the-science-you're-stupid-you-should-listen-to-me-do-what-i-do-and-shut-up mode.

I take 30 minutes showers. I don't buy recycled. I drive alone. I fart. This whole world is a shame of lies everywhere, people say one thing, do another (me included), why fucking care and do what others ask me to do? Government treats citizens like idiot puppets, we still have wars, we have to do what we don't want to make a living, then we have to comply with any number of ridiculous tasks and process. Whatever man, if you're asking me to modify my behaviour only because OMG OMG Global Warming, wait sitting down.

Yes, you're right here, it's a different matter.

And btw, our model, our ideas, our understanding of what the laws of physics are will change, as it has changed over the past few thousand years. And it will be people who continue to be willing to consider different ideas who find better models to describe them. Einstein surely met some ridiculing by the "smart" dudes in his time.

Metsfanmax wrote:You should probably read try reading a journal article in a science field sometime, if you think that scientists aren't good at "considering different ideas." Until then, withhold comment, because you have no idea what you are talking about. Unless you think that anyone should score scientific points for being open-minded enough to say "nah I don't think Newton's laws are that great, I like instead the hypothesis that it's garden gnomes holding everything together."


What makes you think I never did?

Whether you like or not an hypothesis should be unimportant. But, these hypothesis, where do they come from? Are all of them addressed?





------

And when all is said and done, I'm not even against you in this topic, data shows that the emissions are causing and effect. What is the general outcome of this, we will see. Just leave it for the people to decide, don't fret, do your convincing, and that's it. It really isn't that important, if it's part of the ingenuity of men to solve this problem, it will be solved.
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Re: Global Warming Stuff

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nietzsche wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
nietzsche wrote:Still trying to ridicule and still annoyed. You didn't need to prove my point.


This is hardly about ridicule. I don't blame Phatscotty for not being an expert on climate science; few are. However, I have the reasonable expectation that when people don't really know anythign about a subject, that they shut the f*ck up about it and listen to the people who do. There's really nothing glamorous about opening your mouth when you should be listening instead.


You're still annoyed dude, what can I say. Maybe it's been a long time trying to convince others to think like you in this topic. I'm not trolling you.


Of course I am annoyed. I get annoyed when people talk about things they don't understand, but pretend like they do. It's such a disgusting human characteristic.

You're right here, it's a different matter. Maybe because some get fucking tired of idiots telling you what to do, in many different ways, from patronizing mode, to the higher moral standpoint mode, to the bombarding with ads mode, to the i-know-the-science-you're-stupid-you-should-listen-to-me-do-what-i-do-and-shut-up mode.

I take 30 minutes showers. I don't buy recycled. I drive alone. I fart. This whole world is a shame of lies everywhere, people say one thing, do another (me included), why fucking care and do what others ask me to do? Government treats citizens like idiot puppets, we still have wars, we have to do what we don't want to make a living, then we have to comply with any number of ridiculous tasks and process. Whatever man, if you're asking me to modify my behaviour only because OMG OMG Global Warming, wait sitting down.


I don't want to ask you to modify your behavior. Did you read my other posts? I just want to make carbon-intensive products and services more expensive and let you make whatever choices you want to make.

And btw, our model, our ideas, our understanding of what the laws of physics are will change, as it has changed over the past few thousand years. And it will be people who continue to be willing to consider different ideas who find better models to describe them. Einstein surely met some ridiculing by the "smart" dudes in his time.


Another insightful statement: "our basic understanding of thermodynamics and fluid mechanics could be wrong guys. So let's not even bother."

What makes you think I never did?


Call it an educated guess.

Whether you like or not an hypothesis should be unimportant. But, these hypothesis, where do they come from? Are all of them addressed?


What hypotheses? You're just asking this general question, "have climate scientists addressed every possible source of uncertainty in their understanding of the climate," and the answer is obviously no, but where do you even want me to start?

And when all is said and done, I'm not even against you in this topic, data shows that the emissions are causing and effect. What is the general outcome of this, we will see. Just leave it for the people to decide, don't fret, do your convincing, and that's it. It really isn't that important, if it's part of the ingenuity of men to solve this problem, it will be solved.


Yes, we're pretty good at figuring things out. But we also came close to a fucking global nuclear war several times in the last few decades. Society holds itself together by some goddamn miracles sometimes, and it's not always a good idea to hope for it instead of manufacturing it. In this case the incentives aren't quite there to make the solution happen fast enough, and a little market encouragement is needed.
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Re: Global Warming Stuff

Post by mrswdk »

Dukasaur wrote:
mrswdk wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:Now, there is a deforestation problem in the world, but it has nothing to do with paper production. The great forests that are being mowed down in places like Brazil or Indonesia are not being mowed down to make paper or wood products. They're being mowed down because the people in those countries are breeding like locusts and demanding more agricultural land.


The fertility rates* I can find for Brazil and Indonesia are, respectively, 1.8 and 2.09, and rates are falling fast in both countries. Given that a fertility rate of 2.1 is needed for a population to sustain its current levels, this means that Brazil is already set to start shrinking and Indonesia will imminently be following suit.

Trees of the tropical world, rejoice.

*number of children being born per adult woman

When I was a kid the population of Brazil was 70 million and Indonesia 85 million. Today, they are at 212 million and 255 million, respectively. Maybe their birth rates are finally settling down (thank God!) but it still means then have more than tripled in my lifetime. Maybe the future will be better, but the damage to their forests has been done.

Furthermore, more damage is yet to be done. A great part of those millions are still children. Even if the population stops growing now, they won't stop demanding more land for another twenty or thirty years.


That's just what happens when a country develops. Western countries all experienced population booms as they industrialized. I guess Westerners 'breed like locusts' too.

Re the bolded: how do you figure that? If the population stops growing then why would additional land continue to be needed?
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Re: Global Warming Stuff

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got tonkaed wrote:I guess something that has always kind of confused me to some extent is the way which people seem to really fight against the endgame of climate policy.

To me on a simple level, it seems like making businesses more efficient and homes more eco-friendly probably just ends up saving people money in the long run. It also seems philosophically better to be like, we took steps to try and make things better for our descendants rather than eh screw 'em.

Certainly it is a lot more complicated than that and you deal with bureaucracy and big government. It just seems like people from the get go dislike the idea of positively impacting climate change, which seems odd.


What sucks in a way about that though it's likely any savings that can be gained are even more likely to be swallowed up by a growing population.
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Re: Global Warming Stuff

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mrswdk wrote:
got tonkaed wrote:The last point you made about benefiting more people is pretty hard to quantify though. We understand at this point that economic benefits certainly don't hit everyone in the same way, so it is hard to know how much an uptick in the global economy really translates into lives benefited.


You can come up with a good enough estimate to be able to see how those benefits play against the costs to island dwellers of having to relocate.


If only there were a way to measure government over-reach and boogie manning something for monetary/power gain... A government that has no trust.... I'd much prefer they do nothing at all
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Re: Global Warming Stuff

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Phatscotty wrote:
mrswdk wrote:
got tonkaed wrote:The last point you made about benefiting more people is pretty hard to quantify though. We understand at this point that economic benefits certainly don't hit everyone in the same way, so it is hard to know how much an uptick in the global economy really translates into lives benefited.


You can come up with a good enough estimate to be able to see how those benefits play against the costs to island dwellers of having to relocate.


If only there were a way to measure government over-reach and boogie manning something for monetary/power gain... A government that has no trust.... I'd much prefer they do nothing at all


Since they are clearly not going to do nothing at all, it may be the best use of your resources to advocate market-friendly climate legislation instead of market-unfriendly climate legislation. That is what is needed right now.
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Re: Global Warming Stuff

Post by mrswdk »

Why would any government enact measures that will increase the cost of energy and transport in their country, if they know that plenty of/most other countries will not do the same?

All you'd be doing is shooting your domestic producers in the head.
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Re: Global Warming Stuff

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mrswdk wrote:Why would any government enact measures that will increase the cost of energy and transport in their country, if they know that plenty of/most other countries will not do the same?


Because governments are beholden to their citizenry at the end of the day.

All you'd be doing is shooting your domestic producers in the head.


A smart carbon pricing scheme would include a border adjustment that reimburses the carbon price for exports, and places an extra tariff equal to the domestic carbon price for imports coming from countries without equivalent carbon pricing schemes.
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Re: Global Warming Stuff

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Metsfanmax wrote:A smart carbon pricing scheme would include a border adjustment that reimburses the carbon price for exports, and places an extra tariff equal to the domestic carbon price for imports coming from countries without equivalent carbon pricing schemes.


The effect of this would merely be to make all domestically-consumed goods more expensive, meanwhile allowing exporters to get away without having to pay any sort of carbon tax on their exported goods (despite the fact that exporting is more environmentally unfriendly than producing for a domestic market).

In any case, we still haven't settled whether or not climate change will actually have a net negative impact on the world or not. From my Chinese policy making perspective, imposing developed world-level environmental controls on China would threaten to throw some serious brakes on China's development, jeopardizing the future welfare of the tens of millions of rural dwellers who still live in absolute poverty, not to mention destabilizing central and local governments whose legitimacy rests more heavily on sustained economic growth than governments in Western countries do. So, no dice.
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Re: Global Warming Stuff

Post by nietzsche »

awesome, another fucking tax.

i rather die global warmed than to have to pay another tax.
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Re: Global Warming Stuff

Post by Dukasaur »

mrswdk wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:
mrswdk wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:Now, there is a deforestation problem in the world, but it has nothing to do with paper production. The great forests that are being mowed down in places like Brazil or Indonesia are not being mowed down to make paper or wood products. They're being mowed down because the people in those countries are breeding like locusts and demanding more agricultural land.


The fertility rates* I can find for Brazil and Indonesia are, respectively, 1.8 and 2.09, and rates are falling fast in both countries. Given that a fertility rate of 2.1 is needed for a population to sustain its current levels, this means that Brazil is already set to start shrinking and Indonesia will imminently be following suit.

Trees of the tropical world, rejoice.

*number of children being born per adult woman

When I was a kid the population of Brazil was 70 million and Indonesia 85 million. Today, they are at 212 million and 255 million, respectively. Maybe their birth rates are finally settling down (thank God!) but it still means then have more than tripled in my lifetime. Maybe the future will be better, but the damage to their forests has been done.

Furthermore, more damage is yet to be done. A great part of those millions are still children. Even if the population stops growing now, they won't stop demanding more land for another twenty or thirty years.


That's just what happens when a country develops. Western countries all experienced population booms as they industrialized. I guess Westerners 'breed like locusts' too.

If you've paid attention to any of my posts in the past, you know I don't disagree with you on that one.

mrswdk wrote:Re the bolded: how do you figure that? If the population stops growing then why would additional land continue to be needed?

The shape of the population histogram is dependent on the rate of growth. When a population is stable, it is almost bell-shaped, with only a slight left-skew. (Slightly more young people when than old people.) The faster the population grows, the more extreme the left-skew becomes (the larger the imbalance between young and old). If a population has been growing rapidly, but suddenly stops, the left-skew remains for some time. If the population growth suddenly lurched to a halt, at the moment of the halt the bulk of the population are children. Follow me so far?

Now, as the pause in growth remains prolonged, the population will age and the left-skew will slowly shift to the right, but this takes time. Babies don't demand much, but as they become adults their needs become larger. They demand more living space, they demand more food which require more land to grow, they demand more of this and more of that. Their demands don't peak until they are 30 or so. Thus, a population which has only recently stopped growing and still has an overabundance of children hasn't yet peaked in its consumption. Not until the children become full adults do they make their full demand on the environment.
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Re: Global Warming Stuff

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mrswdk wrote:The effect of this would merely be to make all domestically-consumed goods more expensive, meanwhile allowing exporters to get away without having to pay any sort of carbon tax on their exported goods (despite the fact that exporting is more environmentally unfriendly than producing for a domestic market).


Yes, that is precisely the effect. Domestically consumed goods should be made more expensive; that is how you curb their usage. However, I do advocate returning 100% of the tax revenues as a rebate so that consumers do not end up hurt. Meanwhile, the border tariff will ensure that any country exporting to the US will see tax revenue being lost and have an incentive to implement their own carbon pricing scheme, so that the revenue can end up in their own coffers.

In any case, we still haven't settled whether or not climate change will actually have a net negative impact on the world or not.


Climate change will have a net negative impact on the world. The literature is clear on that.

From my Chinese policy making perspective, imposing developed world-level environmental controls on China would threaten to throw some serious brakes on China's development, jeopardizing the future welfare of the tens of millions of rural dwellers who still live in absolute poverty, not to mention destabilizing central and local governments whose legitimacy rests more heavily on sustained economic growth than governments in Western countries do. So, no dice.


China is already one of the world's leading developers of alternative energy technologies (both in renewables and nuclear). China stands to be one of the biggest relative winners from this transition. That's why the production there is so strong already.
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Re: Global Warming Stuff

Post by Metsfanmax »

nietzsche wrote:awesome, another fucking tax.

i rather die global warmed than to have to pay another tax.


You don't even pay your taxes now, so I find this rather amusing. Just continue not paying your taxes, and don't get in the way of those of us who want to improve the world.

(Of course, you wouldn't actually be paying a tax in my preferred implementation, fossil fuel producers would.)
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Re: Global Warming Stuff

Post by mrswdk »

Dukasaur wrote:
mrswdk wrote:That's just what happens when a country develops. Western countries all experienced population booms as they industrialized. I guess Westerners 'breed like locusts' too.

If you've paid attention to any of my posts in the past, you know I don't disagree with you on that one.


Alrighty then :D

Re the bolded: how do you figure that? If the population stops growing then why would additional land continue to be needed?

The shape of the population histogram is dependent on the rate of growth. When a population is stable, it is almost bell-shaped, with only a slight left-skew. (Slightly more young people when than old people.) The faster the population grows, the more extreme the left-skew becomes (the larger the imbalance between young and old). If a population has been growing rapidly, but suddenly stops, the left-skew remains for some time. If the population growth suddenly lurched to a halt, at the moment of the halt the bulk of the population are children. Follow me so far?

Now, as the pause in growth remains prolonged, the population will age and the left-skew will slowly shift to the right, but this takes time. Babies don't demand much, but as they become adults their needs become larger. They demand more living space, they demand more food which require more land to grow, they demand more of this and more of that. Their demands don't peak until they are 30 or so. Thus, a population which has only recently stopped growing and still has an overabundance of children hasn't yet peaked in its consumption. Not until the children become full adults do they make their full demand on the environment.


Oh right, I get you. Are the additional demands really that great as to demand wholesale deforestation though? I mean, particularly in terms of living space - just build up.

On the plus side, Brazil's birth rate has already slumped so low that it's shrinking. Aging population crisis, here we come 8-)
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Re: Global Warming Stuff

Post by nietzsche »

Metsfanmax wrote:
nietzsche wrote:awesome, another fucking tax.

i rather die global warmed than to have to pay another tax.


You don't even pay your taxes now, so I find this rather amusing. Just continue not paying your taxes, and don't get in the way of those of us who want to improve the world.

(Of course, you wouldn't actually be paying a tax in my preferred implementation, fossil fuel producers would.)


I might try to avoid income tax as much as I can but i still pay property tax, car tax, vat, import tax, luxury items tax, etc. And that tax the fossil producer companies pay will be reflected in my pocket eventually.
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Metsfanmax
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Re: Global Warming Stuff

Post by Metsfanmax »

nietzsche wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
nietzsche wrote:awesome, another fucking tax.

i rather die global warmed than to have to pay another tax.


You don't even pay your taxes now, so I find this rather amusing. Just continue not paying your taxes, and don't get in the way of those of us who want to improve the world.

(Of course, you wouldn't actually be paying a tax in my preferred implementation, fossil fuel producers would.)


I might try to avoid income tax as much as I can but i still pay property tax, car tax, vat, import tax, luxury items tax, etc. And that tax the fossil producer companies pay will be reflected in my pocket eventually.


Yes, of course. I have no interest in hurting consumers, and the increased price for certain products is compensated by a rebate check or tax swap rather than just paying down government debt.
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