Conquer Club

Oneyed wrote:

muy_thaiguy wrote:Not sure if DaGip is trolling, or really is that ignorant of Asian relations throughout history (and claiming boats built by the very much NON-sea going Chinese thousands of years ago could have ever made it to North America). Considering throughout history, not only Japan, but nearly all East Asian countries fought each other. Some like China itself, even had Civil Wars that lasted generations (era of the Three Kingdoms being the most well known due to the book and various other incarnations).

Knowing DaGip's past on here, he's kind of "eccentric" when it comes to certain things, so...

it is still better to be troll as blind. and speak about things about which you know so little.

Oneyed

You were looking in a mirror when you posted this, right? Because that's the only way to make sense of what you posted.

GoranZ wrote:

China is showing muscles... I wonder if US show theirs will China chicken out or will withstand like Russia did with Ukraine.
I think it will chicken out

Watching that vid for some reason I'm more concerned over the fact they're ruining perfectly nice coral reefs rather than the political issues.

if u think that's bad, check out the rare earths thread. i'd say that japanese reactor is doing way more damage than an artificial island ever could, tho...

muy_thaiguy wrote:

Oneyed wrote:

muy_thaiguy wrote:Not sure if DaGip is trolling, or really is that ignorant of Asian relations throughout history (and claiming boats built by the very much NON-sea going Chinese thousands of years ago could have ever made it to North America). Considering throughout history, not only Japan, but nearly all East Asian countries fought each other. Some like China itself, even had Civil Wars that lasted generations (era of the Three Kingdoms being the most well known due to the book and various other incarnations).

Knowing DaGip's past on here, he's kind of "eccentric" when it comes to certain things, so...

it is still better to be troll as blind. and speak about things about which you know so little.

Oneyed

You were looking in a mirror when you posted this, right? Because that's the only way to make sense of what you posted.

nice try to be funny and to mask any of yours not knowings. its the same as US are funny with their "democracy" .

Oneyed

Ah, the troll's colors show.

1. China has attacked and provoked the navies of several countries--PHI, JPN, US, etc., within the South China Seas arena.
2. China is strongly pushing to exert ownership over those 'rocks and reefs'.
3. About 1/3 of global trade and half of petroleum trade goes through that area, so it's easy to understand why countries would be reluctant to let China have the opportunity of fucking up trade for everyone or for particular countries--gee, like Taiwan, S. Korea, JPN, etc.

4. Those rocks and reefs have plenty of petroleum reserves, and other countries have already claimed them.

5. China's working toward a 'deep water' (or 'blue sea') navy, so they can project power at farther distances.


It's pretty easy to see why other countries dislike China's recent expansionism.

1: lolwat

2: the clue is in the name, South China Sea

3: the US trying to f*ck up sea routes to China is a far more realistic worry than China trying to screw over Korea (or even Japan). Hence, China not sitting back and allowing the South China Sea to become an American naval base.

4: see 2.

5. America has something like 12 aircraft carriers stationed all over the world, and has troops crawling all over Japan, Korea and South East Asia. It has flown spy planes into Chinese air space and poured weapons into Taiwan. Who's the big scary expansionist here?

mrswdk wrote:1: lolwat

2: the clue is in the name, South China Sea

3: the US trying to f*ck up sea routes to China is a far more realistic worry than China trying to screw over Korea (or even Japan). Hence, China not sitting back and allowing the South China Sea to become an American naval base.

4: see 2.

5. America has something like 12 aircraft carriers stationed all over the world, and has troops crawling all over Japan, Korea and South East Asia. It has flown spy planes into Chinese air space and poured weapons into Taiwan.

More military units China is moving towards South China Sea, more military units will other move in the same area... Military units attract each other like magnets. It would have been good for all if South China Sea would have been announced as demilitarized zone but that wont happen any time soon.

mrswdk wrote:Who's the big scary expansionist here?

China

I see you're still upset about me saying that Russia doesn't have the clout to form a partnership with China on an equal footing.

mrswdk wrote:I see you're still upset about me saying that Russia doesn't have the clout to form a partnership with China on an equal footing.

If Russia is keeping Chinese back, China would be able to cut much bigger peace of Asia's cake
US is counting that China and Russia wont agree If they agree China will expand its influence in Asia, while Russia in Europe.
So you tell me if that is profitable or not for both China and Russia.

Whatever the opinions the SCS is heading further down the military escalation with no end in sight as of yet. All sides are arming themselves and strengthening ties with other pacific nations. Apparently the Philippines is heading down the same road as China now. The chinese are building new runways in the middle of the sea and the philippino's are repairing old runways on their islands. Would not be surprised of Vietnam follows shortly.

I love the phrase "sowing discord." I'm imagining a gigantic Uncle Sam, water-skiing behind twin aircraft carriers, with a big sack of glitterdust, just scattering it everywhere. =)

http://thediplomat.com/2015/04/south-ch ... s-as-well/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/2014/ ... index.html

China has some balls, I'll give 'em that. What? Our ocean claims are too close to the Philippines, Japan, Malaysia, and Vietnam? Hell, let's build some islands!

[bigimg]http://thediplomat.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/thediplomat_2015-04-14_01-32-35.jpg[/bigimg]

mrswdk wrote:2: the clue is in the name, South China Sea

Arm Nuclear Weapons.
Proceed to Def Con 2.

...

Go to blazes, there is no way the United States is giving up sovereignty of the "Gulf of Mexico" to Mexico!

Or in other words, perhaps the clue is NOT IN THE NAME. Association does not mean sovereignty.

And by the way, India can't claim the sovereign waters of Australia simply because that it called the "Indian Ocean."

macbone wrote:I love the phrase "sowing discord." I'm imagining a gigantic Uncle Sam, water-skiing behind twin aircraft carriers, with a big sack of glitterdust, just scattering it everywhere. =)

I am waiting for someone to claim that the discord is actually a genetically modified crop.

tzor wrote:

macbone wrote:I love the phrase "sowing discord." I'm imagining a gigantic Uncle Sam, water-skiing behind twin aircraft carriers, with a big sack of glitterdust, just scattering it everywhere. =)

I am waiting for someone to claim that the discord is actually a genetically modified crop.

Nah, it just means their instruments are out of tune and we're trying to tune them up, but because we're "outsiders" they want to do it themselves.

Mrswdk is appeasing Hitler, according to Phillipine president:
http://www.scmp.com/news/asia/diplomacy/article/1771526/vietnam-asked-us-form-strategic-pact-counter-china-philippine

DoomYoshi wrote:Mrswdk is appeasing Hitler, according to Phillipine president:
http://www.scmp.com/news/asia/diplomacy/article/1771526/vietnam-asked-us-form-strategic-pact-counter-china-philippine

When the leader of the country is spouting this kind of nonsense, how can anyone take anything he says seriously?

Hopefully the matter can be settled in a calm and orderly manner, without further hysterics and certainly without any aggressive alliances being formed to try and bully China away from the table.

mrswdk wrote:

DoomYoshi wrote:Mrswdk is appeasing Hitler, according to Phillipine president:
http://www.scmp.com/news/asia/diplomacy/article/1771526/vietnam-asked-us-form-strategic-pact-counter-china-philippine

When the leader of the country is spouting this kind of nonsense, how can anyone take anything he says seriously?

Hopefully the matter can be settled in a calm and orderly manner, without further hysterics and certainly without any aggressive alliances being formed to try and bully China away from the table.

show

--Andy

mrswdk wrote:

DoomYoshi wrote:Mrswdk is appeasing Hitler, according to Phillipine president:
http://www.scmp.com/news/asia/diplomacy/article/1771526/vietnam-asked-us-form-strategic-pact-counter-china-philippine

When the leader of the country is spouting this kind of nonsense, how can anyone take anything he says seriously?

Hopefully the matter can be settled in a calm and orderly manner, without further hysterics and certainly without any aggressive alliances being formed to try and bully China away from the table.

Bully China away? China is bullying the Philippines a lot more. Tell me, which of the two has the biggest presence of military capability in the region? Which of the two refuses any multilateral negotiations? Which of the two started this arms race? Which of the two is using it's military size to sway things into its favour?

As for Aquino, it's clear he meant the comparison to hitler in terms of expansionism through military means. Not anything to do with genocide or whatever. So I really don't see what the problem is.

waauw wrote:

mrswdk wrote:When the leader of the country is spouting this kind of nonsense, how can anyone take anything he says seriously?

Hopefully the matter can be settled in a calm and orderly manner, without further hysterics and certainly without any aggressive alliances being formed to try and bully China away from the table.

Bully China away? China is bullying the Philippines a lot more. Tell me, which of the two has the biggest presence of military capability in the region?

The Philippines routinely calls for American involvement. America has an enormous presence in the region and militarily is still far stronger than China. China is not the strong party in these negotiations for as long as the Philippines continues to call on America.

Which of the two refuses any multilateral negotiations?

China is completely willing to have open negotiations between all the interested parties. Nations like the Philippines refuse to accept that America is not an interested party in any of these disputes, which prevents any meaningful talks from taking place.

Which of the two started this arms race?

There is no 'arms race'.

Which of the two is using it's military size to sway things into its favour?

That is exactly what that Philippines is trying to do with its constant appeals to America.

If all the other South China Sea nations would just chill out a bit and stop dragging America into the frame at every opportunity, then the situation would be far less threatening for China and open, peaceful dialogue between all the region's nations would be much more achievable.

If the South East Asians nations genuinely want dialogue, and are not merely seeking to intimidate China into submission, then they should drop the Cold War politics and stop trying to play America off against China.

As for Aquino, it's clear he meant the comparison to hitler in terms of expansionism through military means. Not anything to do with genocide or whatever. So I really don't see what the problem is.

Then why not compare China to any of the hundreds of other leaders and nations who have used military means to expand? Aquino could have just compared China to the Great Powers of the 19th and early 20th centuries. Why compare them to the most reviled dictator of all time?

mrswdk wrote:The Philippines routinely calls for American involvement. America has an enormous presence in the region and militarily is still far stronger than China. China is not the strong party in these negotiations for as long as the Philippines continues to call on America.

Oh please, if it weren't for China's agression the Philippines would not have to call in the help of America. The Philippines don't stand a chance vs China without the backing of another superpower.

mrswdk wrote:

Which of the two refuses any multilateral negotiations?

China is completely willing to have open negotiations between all the interested parties. Nations like the Philippines refuse to accept that America is not an interested party in any of these disputes, which prevents any meaningful talks from taking place.

China refuses multilateral. China's policy until now has been bilateral negotiations. This way they want to use their asymetry to force their will upon others. It's simply not logical to negotiate bilaterally when more than 2 nations are involved.

mrswdk wrote:

Which of the two started this arms race?

There is no 'arms race'.

Then you must be living with your eyes shut. China is investing heavily in its military and in response countries like the philippines are now increasingly focusing on the military. The almost sole reason for this expansion is China.

http://globalnation.inquirer.net/119770/wary-of-china-asian-countries-arming-up/

mrswdk wrote:That is exactly what that Philippines is trying to do with its constant appeals to America.

If all the other South China Sea nations would just chill out a bit and stop dragging America into the frame at every opportunity, then the situation would be far less threatening for China and open, peaceful dialogue between all the region's nations would be much more achievable.

If the South East Asians nations genuinely want dialogue, and are not merely seeking to intimidate China into submission, then they should drop the Cold War politics and stop trying to play America off against China.

Oh please, even with the US nobody would be capable of pushing China into submission. ASEAN-nations hence aren't trying to. The asia-pacific nations are scared of China. That's the reason they run to america for help.

mrswdk wrote:

As for Aquino, it's clear he meant the comparison to hitler in terms of expansionism through military means. Not anything to do with genocide or whatever. So I really don't see what the problem is.

Then why not compare China to any of the hundreds of other leaders and nations who have used military means to expand? Aquino could have just compared China to the Great Powers of the 19th and early 20th centuries. Why compare them to the most reviled dictator of all time?

It was the first example jumping to mind, the more infamous the person the easier to assert your point, propaganda, ... who knows? It could be any number of reasons why he picked that specific person. Yet the context is obvious about his point.

waauw wrote:Oh please, if it weren't for China's agression the Philippines would not have to call in the help of America. The Philippines don't stand a chance vs China without the backing of another superpower.

That would be true... if there was a war between China and the Philippines. But there is not, and will not be.

waauw wrote:

mrswdk wrote:China is completely willing to have open negotiations between all the interested parties. Nations like the Philippines refuse to accept that America is not an interested party in any of these disputes, which prevents any meaningful talks from taking place.

China refuses multilateral. China's policy until now has been bilateral negotiations. This way they want to use their asymetry to force their will upon others. It's simply not logical to negotiate bilaterally when more than 2 nations are involved.

They want to have a free and open discussion without other parties butting in to distort talks. If the matter at hand is the Scarborough Shoal, why should Indonesia, America or anyone else be involved? The Scarborough Shoal is an issue for China and the Philippines to settle between themselves.

waauw wrote:

mrswdk wrote:There is no 'arms race'.

Then you must be living with your eyes shut. China is investing heavily in its military and in response countries like the philippines are now increasingly focusing on the military. The almost sole reason for this expansion is China.

http://globalnation.inquirer.net/119770/wary-of-china-asian-countries-arming-up/

China's investment in its military is growing at a proportional rate to the growth of its GDP in general. I don't see what reason there is for anyone else in the region to start wailing and tearing out their hair.

waauw wrote:

mrswdk wrote:That is exactly what that Philippines is trying to do with its constant appeals to America.

If all the other South China Sea nations would just chill out a bit and stop dragging America into the frame at every opportunity, then the situation would be far less threatening for China and open, peaceful dialogue between all the region's nations would be much more achievable.

If the South East Asians nations genuinely want dialogue, and are not merely seeking to intimidate China into submission, then they should drop the Cold War politics and stop trying to play America off against China.

Oh please, even with the US nobody would be capable of pushing China into submission. ASEAN-nations hence aren't trying to. The asia-pacific nations are scared of China. That's the reason they run to america for help.

Ha. Ha. So the reason countries like the Philippines are looking for American help is in case of some kind of Chinese invasion? Purlease.

As for Aquino, it's clear he meant the comparison to hitler in terms of expansionism through military means. Not anything to do with genocide or whatever. So I really don't see what the problem is.

Then why not compare China to any of the hundreds of other leaders and nations who have used military means to expand? Aquino could have just compared China to the Great Powers of the 19th and early 20th centuries. Why compare them to the most reviled dictator of all time?

It was the first example jumping to mind, the more infamous the person the easier to assert your point, propaganda, ... who knows? It could be any number of reasons why he picked that specific person. Yet the context is obvious about his point.

Right. The leaders of the Philippines are spreading hysterical propaganda in order to promote their agenda, rather than engaging in a rational discussion. "Help, help, China is a little 21st century Hitler who wants to invade us and burn all our houses down! And they don't have suffrage and they are called communists!" It's pretty pathetic really.

mrswdk wrote:That would be true... if there was a war between China and the Philippines. But there is not, and will not be.

Which is an issue several asia-pacific nations genuinely fear for.

mrswdk wrote:They want to have a free and open discussion without other parties butting in to distort talks. If the matter at hand is the Scarborough Shoal, why should Indonesia, America or anyone else be involved? The Scarborough Shoal is an issue for China and the Philippines to settle between themselves.

You know full well it's about more than merely Scarborough Shoal. The entire South-China sea is disputed. Imagine the Philippines and China do get to an agreement? What value would that have? Very little as six different countries demand souvereignity over the Spratly islands for instance. This is why multilateral negotiations are needed. Bilateral negotiations are useless. Unfortunately China has repeatedly refused any such negotiations, only willing to deal with ASEAN countries seperately. China doesn't even want to cooperate on negotiating a global charter for disputed seas within the UN.

waauw wrote:China's investment in its military is growing at a proportional rate to the growth of its GDP in general. I don't see what reason there is for anyone else in the region to start wailing and tearing out their hair.

Of course you don't see a reason. You didn't even notice there was an arms race going on.

mrswdk wrote:Ha. Ha. So the reason countries like the Philippines are looking for American help is in case of some kind of Chinese invasion? Purlease.

And yet multiple nations fear as such. There is a reason more than one country fears chinese aggressiveness. Even US-hating country Vietnam is now seeking closer relations with the US due to China.

Right. The leaders of the Philippines are spreading hysterical propaganda in order to promote their agenda, rather than engaging in a rational discussion. "Help, help, China is a little 21st century Hitler who wants to invade us and burn all our houses down! And they don't have suffrage and they are called communists!" It's pretty pathetic really.

Oh please every country spreads propaganda. Just look at yourself, no person on the forums has been spreading their nationalist views more than you. Tell me, how many of these China-worshiping topics have you opened so far? You seem to be a prime example of a person subjected to propaganda.

man's got a point, mrs. u do spend an inordinate amount of time extolling your country's virtues on here. just sayin'...

China worshipping? The OP is about the actions of America (as well as a couple of other nations). It became about China when all the butthurt Westerners got defensive and decided to ignore all the points the article in OP is making and instead just point fingers at China instead.