Re: most corrupt administration in the history of the US
Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 7:18 am
by thegreekdog
ooge wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Woodruff wrote:I was a classified military network system administrator during Iran-Contra. I know a lot about it. Essentially, there was an arms embargo against Iran, and our government arranged to get arms to them in an effort to secure the release of our hostages and in the hope of sending the money to those fighting Communism in Nicaragua.
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I'm saying there was a reason for it, just like there are reasons why we are supporting the Arab Spring uprisings or selling weapons to countries whose leaders routinely violate human rights and/or will eventually be fighting us. It's not like the Reagan administration said "let's sell some weapons to Iran and see what happens" (although, that was kind of what it was).
Of course he wasn't, and I'm not saying that there wasn't some political reason for it. However...
thegreekdog wrote:In any event, my comparisons are valid.
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, given the status of the nations those weapons are being sold to. I don't even understand why you think it's a valid comparison.
Because in 5 years or 10 years or 15 years or whatever, if we are at war with those countries, they will use those weapons against us. We aren't even at war with Iran (nor were we ever). I'm not making an excuse for Reagan or his administration because I wouldn't sell weapons to anyone (if I was the dictator of the U.S.) and will continue to think it was a bad idea. But selling weapons in exchange for getting hostages back, selling weapons to corrupt allies, selling weapons to degraders of human rights, and selling weapons to future enemies are comparable.
I do not disagree with you.but you have changed the subject from selling weapons to a sworn enemy against the laws of congress, to arms proliferation.
And you keep leaving out the "to get hostages back" from your statement. Ostensibly, the purpose of your post was to show how the Reagan administration was corrupt because it sold weapons to a sworn enemy [who we were never at war with] against the laws of Congress [to get hostages back]. Is that better or worse than selling weapons to Iraq or Afghanistan, who we have gone to war with, in order to "protect our interests" in this regions. In the interest of full disclosure, I have no clue what administrations sold weapons to those countries. Is what the Reagan administration did better or worse than the Obama administration which sold weapons to ultra-zealous religious groups (or democratic rebels who then gave them to ultra-zealous religious groups) in the various Arab Spring uprisings (where the ultra-zealous religious groups have eerily similar views on the United States as Iran)?
Again, I'm not defending the Reagan administration. I'm partisan in the context of being a Libertarian and a constitutionalist. I have no skin in this game except to try to get you to acknowledge that the problem wasn't and isn't Reagan and Republicans and the Tea Party, the problem is presidential administrations and the Repocrats and all special interest groups. This is much like the IRS "scandal" - both sides engage in similar activities and the only time any side is called out is when the other side's partisans do it. It's ignorant and shameful and solves nothing.
Re: most corrupt administration in the history of the US
Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 6:29 pm
by ooge
thegreekdog wrote:
ooge wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Woodruff wrote:I was a classified military network system administrator during Iran-Contra. I know a lot about it. Essentially, there was an arms embargo against Iran, and our government arranged to get arms to them in an effort to secure the release of our hostages and in the hope of sending the money to those fighting Communism in Nicaragua.
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I'm saying there was a reason for it, just like there are reasons why we are supporting the Arab Spring uprisings or selling weapons to countries whose leaders routinely violate human rights and/or will eventually be fighting us. It's not like the Reagan administration said "let's sell some weapons to Iran and see what happens" (although, that was kind of what it was).
Of course he wasn't, and I'm not saying that there wasn't some political reason for it. However...
thegreekdog wrote:In any event, my comparisons are valid.
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, given the status of the nations those weapons are being sold to. I don't even understand why you think it's a valid comparison.
Because in 5 years or 10 years or 15 years or whatever, if we are at war with those countries, they will use those weapons against us. We aren't even at war with Iran (nor were we ever). I'm not making an excuse for Reagan or his administration because I wouldn't sell weapons to anyone (if I was the dictator of the U.S.) and will continue to think it was a bad idea. But selling weapons in exchange for getting hostages back, selling weapons to corrupt allies, selling weapons to degraders of human rights, and selling weapons to future enemies are comparable.
I do not disagree with you.but you have changed the subject from selling weapons to a sworn enemy against the laws of congress, to arms proliferation.
And you keep leaving out the "to get hostages back" from your statement. Ostensibly, the purpose of your post was to show how the Reagan administration was corrupt because it sold weapons to a sworn enemy [who we were never at war with] against the laws of Congress [to get hostages back]. Is that better or worse than selling weapons to Iraq or Afghanistan, who we have gone to war with, in order to "protect our interests" in this regions. In the interest of full disclosure, I have no clue what administrations sold weapons to those countries. Is what the Reagan administration did better or worse than the Obama administration which sold weapons to ultra-zealous religious groups (or democratic rebels who then gave them to ultra-zealous religious groups) in the various Arab Spring uprisings (where the ultra-zealous religious groups have eerily similar views on the United States as Iran)?
Again, I'm not defending the Reagan administration. I'm partisan in the context of being a Libertarian and a constitutionalist. I have no skin in this game except to try to get you to acknowledge that the problem wasn't and isn't Reagan and Republicans and the Tea Party, the problem is presidential administrations and the Repocrats and all special interest groups. This is much like the IRS "scandal" - both sides engage in similar activities and the only time any side is called out is when the other side's partisans do it. It's ignorant and shameful and solves nothing.
I would be repeating myself,as you have done.I will only add they negotiated with terrorists. Also the hostages being released the day Reagan was sworn in as president and Iran/contra was connected, unfortunately the CIA director died before it could be confirmed.look into Bush senior and Iran/contra and what happened to the pilot and his wife who moved the supplies into Nicaragua.Noriega ending up in a US prison after working for the CIA? Bush Senior quote"if the American people found out what really happened with Iran/Contra they would come after us with torches and pitchforks" But hey why not Americans, lets put those people back in power in 2000 what could possibly go wrong?
Re: most corrupt administration in the history of the US
Posted: Sat May 18, 2013 12:31 am
by Woodruff
danco wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
danco wrote:At least up their with wilson and roosevelt I d say carter to but that old boy was just dottie of course he did leave behind the dept of ed. two generations educated in gov. schools how else did "barry"get elected in the first place
Gosh, you wouldn't be biased at all!
Biased it use to be called having an opinion read a book maybe you could develop one of your own
Hahahahh...oh boy, you are a funny guy! Well done. Now maybe along with your humor, you can develop a little perspective!
Re: most corrupt administration in the history of the US
Posted: Sat May 18, 2013 12:45 am
by Phatscotty
I don't know this Danco guy, but fyi rule #1 around here is if Obama is being held accountable for something, Woodruff is right there defending him....defending the most corrupt president in history
Re: most corrupt administration in the history of the US
Posted: Sat May 18, 2013 12:46 am
by Phatscotty
ooge wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:this 4th of July
I hope you participate Phatman.
You don't need to tell us what your hopes are. You are compassionate. We all know what you hope for....
Re: most corrupt administration in the history of the US
Posted: Sat May 18, 2013 12:53 am
by Woodruff
Phatscotty wrote:I don't know this Danco guy, but fyi rule #1 around here is if Obama is being held accountable for something, Woodruff is right there defending him....defending the most corrupt president in history
I really don't understand your desire to be a complete liar, Phatscotty. Why is it that you desire to be a complete liar? Why is your own personal dishonesty such a compelling thing for you? You seem to be drawn to it like a moth to a flame.
By the way, aren't I foed? Wanting to hit the Baker's Dozen, are you?
Re: most corrupt administration in the history of the US
Posted: Sat May 18, 2013 11:52 am
by AndyDufresne
BigBallinStalin wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:
ooge wrote:We could discuss the Grant administration for corruption,but that would not be as much fun.
Granted.
--Andy
Oh, quit your grant-standing.
BBS, are you part of some diabolical grant-scheme?
--Andy
Re: most corrupt administration in the history of the US
Posted: Sat May 18, 2013 4:15 pm
by Phatscotty
Adam Kokesh Seeks Obama Support for Open Carry March on Washington
The Open Carry March on Washington planned for July 4 violates D.C. laws and has already been condemned by D.C. Police, but the event's organizer, libertarian talk show host Adam Kokesh, says he hopes the event wins President Obama's support.
Citing recent comments by Obama in Mexico in support of the second amendment, Kokesh tells Whispers the president could issue an order to the D.C. Police to allow the open carry march to take place with a police escort — though Kokesh has no evidence that could happen. "When you throw out a bold idea like this you don't know exactly what form its going to take," Kokesh says.
[RELATED: Some Gun Owners Aren't Happy About the Open Carry March on Washington]
D.C. Police Chief Cathy Lanier has already said protesters carrying loaded firearms into Washington could face arrest, as carrying a gun – either concealed or in the open – is illegal in the District of Columbia.
Re: most corrupt administration in the history of the US
Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 12:18 am
by Woodruff
Phatscotty wrote:Adam Kokesh Seeks Obama Support for Open Carry March on Washington
The Open Carry March on Washington planned for July 4 violates D.C. laws and has already been condemned by D.C. Police, but the event's organizer, libertarian talk show host Adam Kokesh, says he hopes the event wins President Obama's support.
Citing recent comments by Obama in Mexico in support of the second amendment, Kokesh tells Whispers the president could issue an order to the D.C. Police to allow the open carry march to take place with a police escort — though Kokesh has no evidence that could happen. "When you throw out a bold idea like this you don't know exactly what form its going to take," Kokesh says.
[RELATED: Some Gun Owners Aren't Happy About the Open Carry March on Washington]
D.C. Police Chief Cathy Lanier has already said protesters carrying loaded firearms into Washington could face arrest, as carrying a gun – either concealed or in the open – is illegal in the District of Columbia.
I do actually hope this gets the support to happen. But I say that with trepidation, because it does seem like the sort of event that someone with an axe to grind might take as a perfect place for them to try to make a point. There's a small worry on my part that this could be a big disaster.
Re: most corrupt administration in the history of the US
Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 10:02 am
by ooge
Phatscotty wrote:Adam Kokesh Seeks Obama Support for Open Carry March on Washington
The Open Carry March on Washington planned for July 4 violates D.C. laws and has already been condemned by D.C. Police, but the event's organizer, libertarian talk show host Adam Kokesh, says he hopes the event wins President Obama's support.
Citing recent comments by Obama in Mexico in support of the second amendment, Kokesh tells Whispers the president could issue an order to the D.C. Police to allow the open carry march to take place with a police escort — though Kokesh has no evidence that could happen. "When you throw out a bold idea like this you don't know exactly what form its going to take," Kokesh says.
[RELATED: Some Gun Owners Aren't Happy About the Open Carry March on Washington]
D.C. Police Chief Cathy Lanier has already said protesters carrying loaded firearms into Washington could face arrest, as carrying a gun – either concealed or in the open – is illegal in the District of Columbia.
This picture reminds me of the The new black panther party.
Re: most corrupt administration in the history of the US
Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 10:38 am
by stahrgazer
thegreekdog wrote:Again, I'm not defending the Reagan administration. I'm partisan in the context of being a Libertarian and a constitutionalist. I have no skin in this game except to try to get you to acknowledge that the problem wasn't and isn't Reagan and Republicans and the Tea Party, the problem is presidential administrations and the Repocrats and all special interest groups. This is much like the IRS "scandal" - both sides engage in similar activities and the only time any side is called out is when the other side's partisans do it. It's ignorant and shameful and solves nothing.
Accurate.
Especially bad when we have legal embargoes to those nations; and when the public is not aware of what's going on. Constitutionally speaking, it's making "secret allies" of "public enemies" - even if we're not "at war."
Would anyone defend an administration if we found out that during our "cold war" with Russia, some president or congress or secret committee decided to secretly share nuclear or other weapons with "rebels" in East Germany (Russian, at the time) in hopes to "protect our interests" in West Germany?
When we find out years later that x, y, and z, happened with someone we as a nation were supposedly publicly shunning (embargoes, etc.) - is it THAT ludicrous to think that someone, somewhere, actually may have shared our secrets across what was then the Berlin Wall?
Woodruff wrote:I was a classified military network system administrator during Iran-Contra. I know a lot about it. Essentially, there was an arms embargo against Iran, and our government arranged to get arms to them in an effort to secure the release of our hostages and in the hope of sending the money to those fighting Communism in Nicaragua.
And this, DESPITE a "known" and "publicly supported" federal policy to NOT negotiate with hostage takers.
Re: most corrupt administration in the history of the US
Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 11:46 am
by patches70
stahrgazer wrote: is it THAT ludicrous to think that someone, somewhere, actually may have shared our secrets across what was then the Berlin Wall?
It's not ludicrous to think that, it's called espionage.
Re: most corrupt administration in the history of the US
Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 1:02 pm
by Woodruff
ooge wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Adam Kokesh Seeks Obama Support for Open Carry March on Washington
The Open Carry March on Washington planned for July 4 violates D.C. laws and has already been condemned by D.C. Police, but the event's organizer, libertarian talk show host Adam Kokesh, says he hopes the event wins President Obama's support.
Citing recent comments by Obama in Mexico in support of the second amendment, Kokesh tells Whispers the president could issue an order to the D.C. Police to allow the open carry march to take place with a police escort — though Kokesh has no evidence that could happen. "When you throw out a bold idea like this you don't know exactly what form its going to take," Kokesh says.
[RELATED: Some Gun Owners Aren't Happy About the Open Carry March on Washington]
D.C. Police Chief Cathy Lanier has already said protesters carrying loaded firearms into Washington could face arrest, as carrying a gun – either concealed or in the open – is illegal in the District of Columbia.
This picture reminds me of the The new black panther party.
Why? Because they're wearing black and look unhappy?
Re: most corrupt administration in the history of the US
Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 1:04 pm
by Woodruff
patches70 wrote:
stahrgazer wrote: is it THAT ludicrous to think that someone, somewhere, actually may have shared our secrets across what was then the Berlin Wall?
It's not ludicrous to think that, it's called espionage.
Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I got the impression that she wasn't referring to an enemy stealing our secrets...
Re: most corrupt administration in the history of the US
Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 2:33 pm
by patches70
Woodruff wrote:
patches70 wrote:
stahrgazer wrote: is it THAT ludicrous to think that someone, somewhere, actually may have shared our secrets across what was then the Berlin Wall?
It's not ludicrous to think that, it's called espionage.
Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I got the impression that she wasn't referring to an enemy stealing our secrets...
Hahah, I know, I was kind of making a joke. But in truth, people did share secrets, which is by definition espionage. He says it himself, that those secrets shared would not have been known about at the time but would be found out later to induce outrage. In other words, clandestinely, which is espionage. The clandestine element makes it something other than simple intelligence sharing, cooperation or intelligence gathering (the latter is mainly done legally and ethically through public sources open to all)
Someone obviously shared nuclear secrets with Soviet Russia not long after the dropping of the first atomic bombs after all, and that was certainly espionage. We didn't give it away willingly I'll bet ya! Hahaha.
There is nothing wrong with cooperation between rivals/enemies. But if one is trying to hide said cooperation, then it isn't cooperation anymore, is it? Such things become something different, which is what I took from the OP's statements. See?-
stahrgazer wrote: Would anyone defend an administration if we found out that during our "cold war" with Russia, some president or congress or secret committee decided to secretly share nuclear or other weapons with "rebels" in East Germany (Russian, at the time) in hopes to "protect our interests" in West Germany?
Yeah, that's espionage IMO. Otherwise it wouldn't have been clandestine. The very act of cooperating with rebels in foreign territory is espionage, is it not? Regardless of the reasons be they good or bad.
Re: most corrupt administration in the history of the US
Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 6:42 pm
by Phatscotty
Kokesh got arrested at a marijuana rally.
Re: most corrupt administration in the history of the US
Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 9:57 pm
by ooge
Woodruff wrote:
ooge wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Adam Kokesh Seeks Obama Support for Open Carry March on Washington
The Open Carry March on Washington planned for July 4 violates D.C. laws and has already been condemned by D.C. Police, but the event's organizer, libertarian talk show host Adam Kokesh, says he hopes the event wins President Obama's support.
Citing recent comments by Obama in Mexico in support of the second amendment, Kokesh tells Whispers the president could issue an order to the D.C. Police to allow the open carry march to take place with a police escort — though Kokesh has no evidence that could happen. "When you throw out a bold idea like this you don't know exactly what form its going to take," Kokesh says.
[RELATED: Some Gun Owners Aren't Happy About the Open Carry March on Washington]
D.C. Police Chief Cathy Lanier has already said protesters carrying loaded firearms into Washington could face arrest, as carrying a gun – either concealed or in the open – is illegal in the District of Columbia.
This picture reminds me of the The new black panther party.
Why? Because they're wearing black and look unhappy?
The look militant,and like a small insignificant group that only law enforcement should be interested in their actions.
Re: most corrupt administration in the history of the US
Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 10:50 pm
by patrickaa317
ooge wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
ooge wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Adam Kokesh Seeks Obama Support for Open Carry March on Washington
The Open Carry March on Washington planned for July 4 violates D.C. laws and has already been condemned by D.C. Police, but the event's organizer, libertarian talk show host Adam Kokesh, says he hopes the event wins President Obama's support.
Citing recent comments by Obama in Mexico in support of the second amendment, Kokesh tells Whispers the president could issue an order to the D.C. Police to allow the open carry march to take place with a police escort — though Kokesh has no evidence that could happen. "When you throw out a bold idea like this you don't know exactly what form its going to take," Kokesh says.
[RELATED: Some Gun Owners Aren't Happy About the Open Carry March on Washington]
D.C. Police Chief Cathy Lanier has already said protesters carrying loaded firearms into Washington could face arrest, as carrying a gun – either concealed or in the open – is illegal in the District of Columbia.
This picture reminds me of the The new black panther party.
Why? Because they're wearing black and look unhappy?
The look militant,and like a small insignificant group that only law enforcement should be interested in their actions.
Wouldn't most veterans standing together appear militant?
Re: most corrupt administration in the history of the US
Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 2:46 am
by Woodruff
patrickaa317 wrote:
ooge wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
ooge wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Adam Kokesh Seeks Obama Support for Open Carry March on Washington
The Open Carry March on Washington planned for July 4 violates D.C. laws and has already been condemned by D.C. Police, but the event's organizer, libertarian talk show host Adam Kokesh, says he hopes the event wins President Obama's support.
Citing recent comments by Obama in Mexico in support of the second amendment, Kokesh tells Whispers the president could issue an order to the D.C. Police to allow the open carry march to take place with a police escort — though Kokesh has no evidence that could happen. "When you throw out a bold idea like this you don't know exactly what form its going to take," Kokesh says.
[RELATED: Some Gun Owners Aren't Happy About the Open Carry March on Washington]
D.C. Police Chief Cathy Lanier has already said protesters carrying loaded firearms into Washington could face arrest, as carrying a gun – either concealed or in the open – is illegal in the District of Columbia.
This picture reminds me of the The new black panther party.
Why? Because they're wearing black and look unhappy?
The look militant,and like a small insignificant group that only law enforcement should be interested in their actions.
Wouldn't most veterans standing together appear militant?
Yeah, kinda...after a while, that's just...how we stand. <laughing>
Re: most corrupt administration in the history of the US
Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 3:02 am
by Juan_Bottom
The most corrupt administration in the History of the US was President Grant's.
Re: most corrupt administration in the history of the US
Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 6:26 am
by stahrgazer
patches70 wrote:
stahrgazer wrote: Would anyone defend an administration if we found out that during our "cold war" with Russia, some president or congress or secret committee decided to secretly share nuclear or other weapons with "rebels" in East Germany (Russian, at the time) in hopes to "protect our interests" in West Germany?
Yeah, that's espionage IMO. Otherwise it wouldn't have been clandestine. The very act of cooperating with rebels in foreign territory is espionage, is it not? Regardless of the reasons be they good or bad.
No, it's treason. Espionage refers to the other government's attempts to gain secrets.
Espionage or spying involves a government or individual obtaining information considered secret or confidential without the permission of the holder of the information. Espionage is inherently clandestine, as it is taken for granted that it is unwelcome and, in many cases illegal and punishable by law. It is a subset of intelligence gathering, which otherwise may be conducted from public sources and using perfectly legal and ethical means. It is crucial to distinguish espionage from intelligence gathering, as the latter does not necessarily involve espionage, but often collates open-source information.
See, I'm talking about those with permission to HAVE the information, sharing it without legal permission, with those who legally are not supposed to have the information.
As for Russia's nukes, they (supposedly) obtained information from German scientists that had gone East, just as we obtained information from scientists (such as Oppenheimer) who went West; and worked from there.
Re: most corrupt administration in the history of the US
Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 3:02 pm
by thegreekdog
Juan_Bottom wrote:The most corrupt administration in the History of the US was President Grant's.
True.
Re: most corrupt administration in the history of the US
Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 3:13 pm
by AndyDufresne
thegreekdog wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:The most corrupt administration in the History of the US was President Grant's.
True.
I did hear they were pretty flagrant with their corruption.
--Andy
Re: most corrupt administration in the history of the US
Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 3:59 pm
by ooge
Juan_Bottom wrote:The most corrupt administration in the History of the US was President Grant's.
I thought we said we were not going to talk about republican president Grants administration.
Re: most corrupt administration in the history of the US
Posted: Tue May 21, 2013 10:39 pm
by Phatscotty
When the administration starts pleading the 5th, it's about time to stop touting the administration as the most transparent in history.
