No multi rule

[wrangler]

fraud of registration regulation is not theft, plain and simple in that regard.A ll profiles that are not paid for belong solely to CC. When you take the second profile without consent it is theft.Theft is aquireing goods or services without consent of true owner of said goods or sevices

[Backglass]

There is a huge difference between taking a candy bar and downloading a song. When you take a candy bar, there is a victim that loses a candy bar. When you download a song, nothing really happens to the victim. Lost sales?? Get real! Never in a million years would you have paid for all the stuff you've downloaded.

Lets all just steal cable then! Lost sales? Get real! We weren't going to pay for HBO, Showtime and Cinemax anyway...not in a million years!

And why not steal electricity too! There is no victim after all...Canadian Hydro has plenty of juice...and they get it for free from their dams! Nobody single person gets hurt, so lets do it!

So Lack...if someone figures out how to subvert your system and get premium account benefits without paying, you'll just let it slide then? After all nothing really happens to you.

[AAFitz]

There is a huge difference between taking a candy bar and downloading a song. When you take a candy bar, there is a victim that loses a candy bar. When you download a song, nothing really happens to the victim. Lost sales?? Get real! Never in a million years would you have paid for all the stuff you've downloaded.

Lets all just steal cable then! Lost sales? Get real! We weren't going to pay for HBO, Showtime and Cinemax anyway...not in a million years!

And why not steal electricity too! There is no victim after all...Canadian Hydro has plenty of juice...and they get it for free from their dams! Nobody single person gets hurt, so lets do it!

So Lack...if someone figures out how to subvert your system and get premium account benefits without paying, you'll just let it slide then? After all nothing really happens to you.

i already did....you think I used my credit info...and gave it to a turtle...please....but it was just a banks money...no harm done.

[lackattack]

There is a huge difference between taking a candy bar and downloading a song. When you take a candy bar, there is a victim that loses a candy bar. When you download a song, nothing really happens to the victim. Lost sales?? Get real! Never in a million years would you have paid for all the stuff you've downloaded.

Lets all just steal cable then! Lost sales? Get real! We weren't going to pay for HBO, Showtime and Cinemax anyway...not in a million years!

And why not steal electricity too! There is no victim after all...Canadian Hydro has plenty of juice...and they get it for free from their dams! Nobody single person gets hurt, so lets do it!

So Lack...if someone figures out how to subvert your system and get premium account benefits without paying, you'll just let it slide then? After all nothing really happens to you.

are you calling me a hypocrite!?

because you might be right

[jiminski]

this is a disgraceful and anit-semantic thread!

[Backglass]

are you calling me a hypocrite!?

because you might be right

Never! I just want free electricity.

[sully800]

well in general, im completely playing devils advocate here, but since piracy has resulted in hugely diminished sales because of downloading, it actually has cost money, and therefore is theft. If I spend two years of my life writing a book...which im getting close to in this thread...and someone copies all the info onto the internet and lets everyone read it for free, they have in fact stolen two years of my life. I wrote it with the express intent of letting those who paid for it read it. If all can read it for free, its the same as taking my car. It seems small, because its one song, but the people who used to buy music and movies stopped the day they could download it for free. Therefore, they are stealing. Now no ones going to feel for the mega-groups of course, but the one hit wonder groups are the ones mostly affected. They stumble on one song that is absolutely unique, and the only way in the past to hear it was on the radio, or buy it. Now one person buys it, and all their friends and friends can listen to it for free. Justify it to yourself however you want...but dont pretend youre not taking something from someone.

...............the end...

I do have to disagree a bit with this. I think free illegal downloads are even better for the little one hit wonder! Think about it- everyone already knows who Green Day is (just an example of course). So people will go see them in concert and some honest people will buy new music when it comes out.

But when the podunk AAfitzer's realease an awesome new song, few people will have heard of them and they wouldn't think to go to the concert. And they certainly wouldn't go ahead and buy a CD from the badn if they haven't heard and liked the music. However if they DO have a huge hit song, everyone will download it illegally, fall in love with the band and be much more willing to purchase future music or go to the concerts.

[cleveridea]

http://www.adn.com/news/alaska/story/86 ... 9268c.html

What has gone terribly wrong in your life when you are 21 and mommy and daddy turn off your internet @9pm? Probably haven't given up the racecar bed either, I suppose.

[AAFitz]

But when the podunk AAfitzer's realease an awesome new song, few people will have heard of them and they wouldn't think to go to the concert.

you bastrd...who told you about the release...dam managers

[AAFitz]

http://www.adn.com/news/alaska/story/86 ... 9268c.html

What has gone terribly wrong in your life when you are 21 and mommy and daddy turn off your internet @9pm? Probably haven't given up the racecar bed either, I suppose.

Well, i imagine having caring if somewhat protective parents doesnt mean anything has gone terribly wrong in his life...

[AAFitz]

I think thats every mod besides moz that has chirped in on this one...its been a fun ride...edit:(and FP and MB...sorry guys)

but lack perhaps we can stop chatting semantics, and start programming...

my dice are going to be bad for a month, arent they?...correction...another month

[pancakemix]

My only multi, the infamous Master Sheep...

Good luck.

It wont suprise me if you are banned

The multi was deactivated a long while ago. Hence it is infamous.

[GreecePwns]

I only saw the first page and already two people fess up for having multis? This is a first...

[reverend_kyle]

I believe forum only monkeys should be allowed.

[alster]

well in general, im completely playing devils advocate here, but since piracy has resulted in hugely diminished sales because of downloading, it actually has cost money, and therefore is theft. If I spend two years of my life writing a book...which im getting close to in this thread...and someone copies all the info onto the internet and lets everyone read it for free, they have in fact stolen two years of my life. I wrote it with the express intent of letting those who paid for it read it. If all can read it for free, its the same as taking my car. It seems small, because its one song, but the people who used to buy music and movies stopped the day they could download it for free. Therefore, they are stealing. Now no ones going to feel for the mega-groups of course, but the one hit wonder groups are the ones mostly affected. They stumble on one song that is absolutely unique, and the only way in the past to hear it was on the radio, or buy it. Now one person buys it, and all their friends and friends can listen to it for free. Justify it to yourself however you want...but dont pretend youre not taking something from someone.

...............the end...

First of all, the facts dispute these kinds of notions (this is only industry propaganda you sucked up like a Greek sponge). While record sales (read CD) in general have been going down, artists’ revenues from live concerts have been going up as much. People are switching here, they rather spend their money on live experiences than overpriced CD’s. This is good for the artists in general since the four big record labels aren’t exactly making artists’ rich through their CD sales. If you have a CD priced USD 20 in a store, out of that the artist behind the CD is lucky to get one or two dollars for himself (about 20-25% of the price is being spent by the company to promote their main artists like Pussy Cat Dolls, the store will take 30-50% in order to keep going, there’s distribution and material costs as well as the record company margin to take into account). In short, CD’s won’t make artists wealthy anymore. What artists DO make money out of are radio and music videos (even though the industry currently are besieging Internet radio stations, in effect putting them out of business) and concerts.

75 years ago, artists made money out of concerts. That was their main revenue. Why on earth should today’s artists be pampered, not actually having to work for their living? (Ironically, records as a technology was seen by some artists as a threat when they started to grow in the 1930’s, the artists were afraid that people would stop attending their live concerts.)

And, most importantly - If I download a song, I do not steal it. I may perhaps commit an infringement of copyright laws, but that’s not theft. No one is loosing their music because I copy it. Copying can never be theft.


As an author, you could remember that the copyright you get when writing a book is given by the society to you. Copyright is not a natural right you inhere under the social contract. To the contrary, the founding fathers were quite skeptical with respect to Copyrights since they believed that it could threaten the spread of information in society. Eventually, they agreed on a 12-year copyright. Copyright is a trade. In exchange for you making your work available to the world (which in theory would benefit the rest of the society) you’re granted a short-time monopoly using that work. It’s a bargain. And society enters into this bargain with the idea that this, although monopolies are not good in itself, in the long-run will make more works of art available to the world. So when you’re saying that you write with the “express intent of letting those who paid for it read it” it’s well, not totally right. Whatever your intent is, you’re only granted a temporary monopoly, when it expires, you have no rights left. And, when the copyright applies, you don’t have total control over your work, fair use and other rules takes precedence over your intentions and/or will.

However, as an author, you should be happy if people read your work. Doesn’t that give you a sense of fulfillment and satisfaction?

[alex_white101]

since when is not paying for something...that everyone else is paying for.......and you know you should....not theft?

[jiminski]

Well this argument has strayed from the point. In my opinion multis are all evil. (all one of them!)
Since i don't beleive in the concept of evil as a tangible force; for me it is merely an adjective describing a heinous act, you can not entirely refute my view that multi-ing is in fact an evil act. This is entirely subjective so you can not measure it's impact upon me and have to accept my word.

The Theft argment is an argument about interpretation.
Thieve, Steal v take dishonestly and especially secretly what is another's. obtain win, etc [/i]surreptitiously by insidious arts, etc;
move secretly or silently;
a march on, gain advantage over unobserved.
n theft; bargain easy gain. [colloq]

So i think there is something for everyone there.
To deny Fitz the right to use the word theft in this case rather undermines the flexibility of the english language.
Steal yourself away from the melee for a moment and you will enjoy the english language far more. It's diversity and evolution is largely based on metaphor anyway.

This debate has been the thief of enough of my time already. I bid you farewell.

[AAFitz]

well in general, im completely playing devils advocate here, but since piracy has resulted in hugely diminished sales because of downloading, it actually has cost money, and therefore is theft. If I spend two years of my life writing a book...which im getting close to in this thread...and someone copies all the info onto the internet and lets everyone read it for free, they have in fact stolen two years of my life. I wrote it with the express intent of letting those who paid for it read it. If all can read it for free, its the same as taking my car. It seems small, because its one song, but the people who used to buy music and movies stopped the day they could download it for free. Therefore, they are stealing. Now no ones going to feel for the mega-groups of course, but the one hit wonder groups are the ones mostly affected. They stumble on one song that is absolutely unique, and the only way in the past to hear it was on the radio, or buy it. Now one person buys it, and all their friends and friends can listen to it for free. Justify it to yourself however you want...but dont pretend youre not taking something from someone.

...............the end...

First of all, the facts dispute these kinds of notions (this is only industry propaganda you sucked up like a Greek sponge). While record sales (read CD) in general have been going down, artists’ revenues from live concerts have been going up as much. People are switching here, they rather spend their money on live experiences than overpriced CD’s. This is good for the artists in general since the four big record labels aren’t exactly making artists’ rich through their CD sales. If you have a CD priced USD 20 in a store, out of that the artist behind the CD is lucky to get one or two dollars for himself (about 20-25% of the price is being spent by the company to promote their main artists like Pussy Cat Dolls, the store will take 30-50% in order to keep going, there’s distribution and material costs as well as the record company margin to take into account). In short, CD’s won’t make artists wealthy anymore. What artists DO make money out of are radio and music videos (even though the industry currently are besieging Internet radio stations, in effect putting them out of business) and concerts.

75 years ago, artists made money out of concerts. That was their main revenue. Why on earth should today’s artists be pampered, not actually having to work for their living? (Ironically, records as a technology was seen by some artists as a threat when they started to grow in the 1930’s, the artists were afraid that people would stop attending their live concerts.)

And, most importantly - If I download a song, I do not steal it. I may perhaps commit an infringement of copyright laws, but that’s not theft. No one is loosing their music because I copy it. Copying can never be theft.


As an author, you could remember that the copyright you get when writing a book is given by the society to you. Copyright is not a natural right you inhere under the social contract. To the contrary, the founding fathers were quite skeptical with respect to Copyrights since they believed that it could threaten the spread of information in society. Eventually, they agreed on a 12-year copyright. Copyright is a trade. In exchange for you making your work available to the world (which in theory would benefit the rest of the society) you’re granted a short-time monopoly using that work. It’s a bargain. And society enters into this bargain with the idea that this, although monopolies are not good in itself, in the long-run will make more works of art available to the world. So when you’re saying that you write with the “express intent of letting those who paid for it read it” it’s well, not totally right. Whatever your intent is, you’re only granted a temporary monopoly, when it expires, you have no rights left. And, when the copyright applies, you don’t have total control over your work, fair use and other rules takes precedence over your intentions and/or will.

However, as an author, you should be happy if people read your work. Doesn’t that give you a sense of fulfillment and satisfaction?

justify your need to break the law all you want....and im not an athor...im putting myself in the shoes of one for arguement's sake.

and thier sense of fulfillment and satisfaction wont exactly pay thier rent....but if you would like a job for a couple of years, ill insure that is fullfilling and satisfying...you wont get paid, but that should be enough right...

illegally downloading is the same as transferring funds illegally in my opinion...its against the law. the people who produced the item whether software, music, story etc. arent giving you permission, and they make it available easily for a small fee. so feel free to justify it yourself that everything is just free for everyone, but dont try to convince me.

And you say copying can never be theft. Throw a few dollar bills in your copier and use those. Let me know how that works out for you.

[Mr. Know It All]

...I am just wondering, if someone is busted, then make another SINGLE account, are they busted again?

[AAFitz]

Well this argument has strayed from the point. In my opinion multis are all evil. (all one of them!)
Since i don't beleive that the concept of evil is a tangible force; for me it is merely an adjective describing a heinous act, you can not entirely refute my view that multi-ing is in fact an evil act. This is entirely subjective so you can not measure it's impact upon me and have to accept my word.

The Theft argment is an argument about interpretation.
Thieve, Steal v take dishonestly and especially secretly what is another's. obtain win, etc [/i]surreptitiously by insidious arts, etc;
move secretly or silently;
a march on, gain advantage over unobserved.
n theft; bargain easy gain. [colloq]

So i think there is something for everyone there.
To deny Fitz the right to use the word theft in this case rather undermines the flexibility of the english language.
Steal yourself away from the melee for a moment and you will enjoy the english language far more. It's diversity and evolution is largely based on metaphor anyway.
This debate has been the thief of enough of my time already.

Very insightful. I actually had this idea rattling in the back of my mind, but didnt think to explain it in detail...having too much fun being an extremist for the moment....

but the word thief can be used in many situations....

religious leaders of parishes have been called thieves for convincing older people to donate all of their savings to the parish. Now there was no breaking and entering, no subversion. The leader simply convinces someone to donate everything they have. The person agrees and gives it willingly. But in certain situations, Ill call that guy a thief. Disagree with it all you want, but thats what he is.

Also, before the massive dot com crash, major brokers were selling off everything they could....but were offering interviews as advisors where ever they could saying buy buy buy....they said the market was strong, and that it was a great time to buy...as they sold sold sold.... thieves...every one of them....

I happen to have a very low opinion of dishonesty and thievery. Many will disagree, and many in business will say its all a part of business, but just become something is commonplace...it doesnt make it right

but again...i am arguing for arguments sake here....im obviously not saying that some 14 year old who downloads brittneys new album is the same as a purse snatcher...but it it is a dishonest act, illeagal, and though commonplace is simply immoral, and wrong. As is clicking a box saying I'll have one account, and openning two. Its a fradulent statement used to obtain a service for free. To me that stealing.

[lackattack]

...I am just wondering, if someone is busted, then make another SINGLE account, are they busted again?

Yes. They have to pay the fine and re-activate one of their busted accounts.

[alex_white101]

i think you are too generous, maybe they should have to pay 15 dollars just to get reactivated and then an extra 20 dollars to get premium

[wicked]

...I am just wondering, if someone is busted, then make another SINGLE account, are they busted again?

Yes.

[sully800]

Haha, and he just found out that we're serious!

[Dancing Mustard]

Oh wow. This is where this thread got to. Crazy times..... thought I'd lost it.

Anyway. I think we've all reached a very special place; so thanks for the discussion guys. It's been fun.

P.S. Multis suck