Conquer Club

AndyDufresne wrote:

jonesthecurl wrote:And remember: if a sentence has the word "but" in it, you should only take notice of the the words after "but".

This is why Jonesy should be Emperor of the Off Topics.


--Andy

Neoteny wrote:There are a whole lot of dudes in here who seem to think they know better than women.

kentington wrote:

Gillipig wrote:

jonesthecurl wrote:

Gillipig wrote:I consider men to be less worth than women but also more competent than women. Where does that put me? Male chauvinst or feminist?

arsehole.

I was thinking more like "Realist".

That just assures them that you are a total male chauvinist.
[ramble]
Honestly, I think feminism has gone too far and is now hurting its own cause. I agree women should have equal rights and be able to vote. I agree that they should have an equal chance at being hired. But I have seen feminist women verbally attack other women who didn't work but stayed home and raised kids. These outspoken ones may be a minority, but from any feminist I have met it seems to be a constant. Those that I have met also tend to hate men or hold them in a negative light. This creates a poor image for those of us who aren't "in" with them and makes us lean away from them.

The thing that bothers me the most is that there are a lot of passive men and women out there and they both get made fun of by their own gender. [/ramble]

Gillipig wrote:Clearly men are more able at almost all aspects of life. If you want someone to cook the best food, chop the most wood, figure out the theory of relativity, fight for you, whatever it is, a man can do it better than a woman. That's not how I want it to be, it's not a wishfull thinking thing, it's just what I see when I look at our society.

Clearly white men are more able at almost all aspects of life. If you want someone to cook the best food, chop the most wood, figure out the theory of relativity, fight for you, whatever it is, a white man can do it better than any other. That's not how I want it to be, it's not a wishfull thinking thing, it's just what I see when I look at our society.

chang50 wrote:Some of the most strident opponents of gender equality have been female in my experience.

chang50 wrote:Some of the most strident opponents of gender equality have been female in my experience.

Lootifer wrote:Hes just being all swarmy and ivory-towerish. I wouldnt worry.

@ Neo: We arent saying we know better than woman, we are merely stating our opinion on a subjective topic. Discounting our opinion just because we have a dong between our legs is far more sexist than men trying to assert opinions on feminism.

ps: by our i mean all the people you are criticizing; I havent actually voiced an opinion. Im a pragmatist much like BBS in this case.

kentington wrote:Honestly, I think feminism has gone too far and is now hurting its own cause.

Sady Doyle wrote:How the HELL can you presume to describe yourself as a feminist, Freddie? Like, how the f*ck do you listen to two women talking about an experience, of feminism, and confirming with each other that they’ve both had similar experiences, and write a post about how they are not being considerate enough to men, and still sign off as a fucking feminist man at the end of the day? You’re not. You are not a feminist. You have, actually, nothing to contribute to feminist discourse. Because, still, the experiences of women are less important to you than how eager those women are to accomodate your personal fucking boner. You want to be a feminist, Freddie? Listen closely, because I’m about to tell you how:

SHUT. THE f*ck. UP.

I mean it. SHUT THE f*ck UP, Freddie. Shut the f*ck up and let the big girls talk. Because we know way more about this than you. And every time you want to pitch in with an observation? Shut the f*ck up a little bit harder. And maybe, after a few years or decades or whatever, you might have absorbed enough from listening to people with actual feminist insight (possibly related to their actually being women) to contribute productively to the conversation. But, in the meantime, actual feminists are going to get a lot more done, simply by virtue of not having to listen to the ungodly noise that comes out of your mouth. Truly, Freddie: You should shut the f*ck up. Shutting the f*ck up is, in fact, the biggest contribution you can make to the feminist cause.

Neoteny wrote:There are a whole lot of dudes in here who seem to think they know better than women.

Neoteny wrote:Completely unremarkably, people also said this about MLK. And they said it about suffragettes. And whatever. But hey, let's put our pragmatist dongs on here.

I don't care to take a tally of dudes who says things like "men are more competent than women" and compare the number to those who are completely weirded out by mansplaining, but I'm willing to bet it's roughly 50/50. Or worse. From a practical standpoint, would it be counterproductive to be more or less defensive when faced with that ratio? We don't even need any ivory or towers to do the math here. In my experience, if we are challenging people and forcing them to fall back on comments about tone rather than the content of our message, then we are doing something right. These doin-it-wrong feminists are seeing a swelling in support, much like the recent atheists who were also hurting their cause while broadening their base and standing up for what they thought was right. Not that there is any equivalence there (and atheists have their own sexism problems).

What's really weird is that a lot of these shrewish feminists are completely ok with dongs. Indeed, many have successful personal relationships with dong-holders. It might seem strange that these women find men who treat them as equals and recognize that society tends to treat the genders unevenly. Most of these guys recognize that they possess a certain amount of privilege, and that the number one thing to do when discussing sexism is to shut the f*ck up for a second and listen. The second thing is to shut the f*ck up a little more. Maybe not even offer an opinion. It's hard to do, and I've failed to do it in this thread, but I tried. I really did. But the minute, the very second, we think we know what it's like to live in a world that privileges traits we do not possess, when we think we know better for women, or blacks, or whomever than they do, is the time we need to step back and ask ourselves if we really do. Do we really? The answer is actually "no." So it's time to shut the f*ck up some more. Feminism, like any movement, carries a diversity of opinion (what's the fallacy when you attribute to an entire population the traits of a few?), some who are more aggressive, some who aren't. Some who actually hate men, some who don't. There are so many voices trying to find the right way in any movement, and who are we to sit here with our dongs in our hands and nod solemnly at the observation that feminists are going too far? Maybe they've got this.

Maybe they've got this.

For what it's worth, I've totally stolen the "shut the f*ck up" bit from Sady Doyle of Tiger Beatdown. She's hilarious.

Sady Doyle wrote:How the HELL can you presume to describe yourself as a feminist, Freddie? Like, how the f*ck do you listen to two women talking about an experience, of feminism, and confirming with each other that they’ve both had similar experiences, and write a post about how they are not being considerate enough to men, and still sign off as a fucking feminist man at the end of the day? You’re not. You are not a feminist. You have, actually, nothing to contribute to feminist discourse. Because, still, the experiences of women are less important to you than how eager those women are to accomodate your personal fucking boner. You want to be a feminist, Freddie? Listen closely, because I’m about to tell you how:

SHUT. THE f*ck. UP.

I mean it. SHUT THE f*ck UP, Freddie. Shut the f*ck up and let the big girls talk. Because we know way more about this than you. And every time you want to pitch in with an observation? Shut the f*ck up a little bit harder. And maybe, after a few years or decades or whatever, you might have absorbed enough from listening to people with actual feminist insight (possibly related to their actually being women) to contribute productively to the conversation. But, in the meantime, actual feminists are going to get a lot more done, simply by virtue of not having to listen to the ungodly noise that comes out of your mouth. Truly, Freddie: You should shut the f*ck up. Shutting the f*ck up is, in fact, the biggest contribution you can make to the feminist cause.

john9blue wrote:so you think men and women are totally equal?

i thought you were a biologist?

j9b wrote:a society can lose 90% of its men and keep going. not so with women.

Neoteny wrote:mansplaining

Neoteny wrote:Well, "we" are saying that we know better than women. For example, here:

kentington wrote:Honestly, I think feminism has gone too far and is now hurting its own cause.

Completely unremarkably, people also said this about MLK. And they said it about suffragettes. And whatever. But hey, let's put our pragmatist dongs on here.

Juan_Bottom wrote:Describing yourself as a Feminist just means that you don't think women should be treated like doormats. You believe in the equality of the sexes. That women should be free to choose their own path.

It doesn't mean that you hate men or women.

Neoteny wrote:

Lootifer wrote:Hes just being all swarmy and ivory-towerish. I wouldnt worry.

@ Neo: We arent saying we know better than woman, we are merely stating our opinion on a subjective topic. Discounting our opinion just because we have a dong between our legs is far more sexist than men trying to assert opinions on feminism.

ps: by our i mean all the people you are criticizing; I havent actually voiced an opinion. Im a pragmatist much like BBS in this case.

Well, "we" are saying that we know better than women. For example, here:

kentington wrote:Honestly, I think feminism has gone too far and is now hurting its own cause.

Completely unremarkably, people also said this about MLK. And they said it about suffragettes. And whatever. But hey, let's put our pragmatist dongs on here.

Neoteny wrote:Mother Mary, that's like, four people and john9blue that seem to be uncomfortable with the idea that their opinions might be unnecessary and undesired.

Ain't nobody got time for that. I'll try tomorrow.

Neoteny wrote:Mother Mary, that's like, four people and john9blue that seem to be uncomfortable with the idea that their opinions might be unnecessary and undesired.

Ain't nobody got time for that. I'll try tomorrow.

BigBallinStalin wrote:

Neoteny wrote:Mother Mary, that's like, four people and john9blue that seem to be uncomfortable with the idea that their opinions might be unnecessary and undesired.

Ain't nobody got time for that. I'll try tomorrow.

Your position doesn't make sense. You're not thinking clearly about it. If you adjust it, I might agree.

Funkyterrance wrote:

BigBallinStalin wrote:

Neoteny wrote:Mother Mary, that's like, four people and john9blue that seem to be uncomfortable with the idea that their opinions might be unnecessary and undesired.

Ain't nobody got time for that. I'll try tomorrow.

Your position doesn't make sense. You're not thinking clearly about it. If you adjust it, I might agree.

Let me speak for Neoteny for a moment like I might speak for a woman...
Maybe he's arguing "If you ignore it, it will go away."?