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Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 5:44 am
by Thezzaruz
owenshooter wrote:ronc8649 wrote: i have in fact been abusing city mogul at an alarming rate.
i love that people can admit these sort of things, and nothing will ever happen to them...-0
Why should anything ever happen to him???
Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns
Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:48 pm
by overanalyzer
OK folks - a lot of us play free style because we work, have commitments during the day and generally have a life... I have the premium account and I like to tryout new maps.... tried out the city mogul map and kept getting my arse handed to me by one Mr. Artimis..... well as I finally figured out that he was buggering the system I scroll down and read his little spiel on this double turns....
It needs to end and here is why:
#1 it violates the letter of the law (last person to end can not go next)
#2 it violates the spirit of conquer club. The idea that this is made up after a board game (which I won't name so lawyers can begin to un-bunch their undies).... well if we were sitting around on someone's patio playing and they stopped their turn and set a timer I'm pretty sure I'd go upside their head for breaking the rules...
#3 all the justifications in the thread are such that they are straw men (well it lets me do it so I should be able to ... try that one next time you get a speeding ticket).....
C'mon folks this should be a no brainer based on #1 alone.... but for integrity sake #2 and #3 play a role as well.
Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns
Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:13 pm
by lancehoch
If one person starts their turn, but runs out of time, they should get locked out for half of the next round or when another person starts their turn. What about if it is more than one person? Should they both (all) get locked out? What if it is every person in the game?
Personally, I would like to see that everyone gets locked out, no matter the situation, but how does everyone else feel?
Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns
Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:19 pm
by cramill
overanalyzer wrote:OK folks - a lot of us play free style because we work, have commitments during the day and generally have a life... I have the premium account and I like to tryout new maps.... tried out the city mogul map and kept getting my arse handed to me by one Mr. Artimis..... well as I finally figured out that he was buggering the system I scroll down and read his little spiel on this double turns....
It needs to end and here is why:
#1 it violates the letter of the law (last person to end can not go next)
#2 it violates the spirit of conquer club. The idea that this is made up after a board game (which I won't name so lawyers can begin to un-bunch their undies).... well if we were sitting around on someone's patio playing and they stopped their turn and set a timer I'm pretty sure I'd go upside their head for breaking the rules...
#3 all the justifications in the thread are such that they are straw men (well it lets me do it so I should be able to ... try that one next time you get a speeding ticket).....
C'mon folks this should be a no brainer based on #1 alone.... but for integrity sake #2 and #3 play a role as well.
I agree. I still ask why hasn't anything been done about this? Has there been any official stance on this - as far as what they think and if this is going to be changed or not?
lancehoch wrote:If one person starts their turn, but runs out of time, they should get locked out for half of the next round or when another person starts their turn. What about if it is more than one person? Should they both (all) get locked out? What if it is every person in the game?
Personally, I would like to see that everyone gets locked out, no matter the situation, but how does everyone else feel?
Read the thread - this has been discussed.
Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns
Posted: Fri May 01, 2009 3:31 am
by Thezzaruz
cramill wrote:lancehoch wrote:If one person starts their turn, but runs out of time, they should get locked out for half of the next round or when another person starts their turn. What about if it is more than one person? Should they both (all) get locked out? What if it is every person in the game?
Personally, I would like to see that everyone gets locked out, no matter the situation, but how does everyone else feel?
Read the thread - this has been discussed.
Yea and the general consensus is that if several players times out then all should be subject to the lock out but if all players time out then preferably all would be allowed to go directly (if not possible to code then let the lock out apply).
Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns
Posted: Fri May 01, 2009 5:08 am
by Artimis
lancehoch wrote:If one person starts their turn, but runs out of time, they should get locked out for half of the next round or when another person starts their turn. What about if it is more than one person? Should they both (all) get locked out? What if it is every person in the game?
Personally, I would like to see that everyone gets locked out, no matter the situation, but how does everyone else feel?
Sounds brutal, but is probably the easiest to code and is fairer than most ideas to all concerned.
cramill wrote:I agree. I still ask why hasn't anything been done about this? Has there been any official stance on this - as far as what they think and if this is going to be changed or not?
Probably because not enough players are complaining about it to rouse the admin staff from their comatose slumber, we need more voices and we need them NOW!
Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns
Posted: Fri May 01, 2009 5:12 am
by King_Herpes
I think that if I don't get to my turn until the last 20 minutes then I should get a triple turn... Only seems fair.
Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns
Posted: Fri May 01, 2009 8:06 am
by Thezzaruz
King_Herpes wrote:I think that if I don't get to my turn until the last 20 minutes then I should get a triple turn... Only seems fair.
Why not make it a quadruple turn while we're at it, serves the opponents right for being dumb enough to actually take their turn in the allocated time frame.
Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns
Posted: Sat May 02, 2009 7:56 am
by ronsizzle
there are too many chiefs and not enough indians in here.
and the chiefs seem to think that they should spend their time telling people how to talk, play, and post. rather than fix bugs, find multis, and figure out ways to get all of the cheaters out of here.
what has hyasri done since she got here?
1. got rid of flame wars.
can anyone else give me something more?
Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns
Posted: Sat May 02, 2009 2:43 pm
by sailorseal
lancehoch wrote:If one person starts their turn, but runs out of time, they should get locked out for half of the next round or when another person starts their turn. What about if it is more than one person? Should they both (all) get locked out? What if it is every person in the game?
Personally, I would like to see that everyone gets locked out, no matter the situation, but how does everyone else feel?
I say the person(s) that run out of time get locked out for half a round, as if they ended but if it is everyone then everyone can start
Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns
Posted: Mon May 25, 2009 6:57 am
by dysonsphere
I support removing this bug. Every other game requires you to wait half a round or until the next person starts it.
This is just a cheat used by those no clever enough to win otherwise, but fast enough or with better connections.
In the end either make every game start afresh on a new round or none of them.
If this is not resolved by the next time I pay up then I will just become a none premium game and enjoy the substandard service for free.
I think others should vote with their feet too.
Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns
Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:27 pm
by trinicardinal
I support removing the bug as well.
sailorseal wrote:lancehoch wrote:If one person starts their turn, but runs out of time, they should get locked out for half of the next round or when another person starts their turn. What about if it is more than one person? Should they both (all) get locked out? What if it is every person in the game?
Personally, I would like to see that everyone gets locked out, no matter the situation, but how does everyone else feel?
I say the person(s) that run out of time get locked out for half a round, as if they ended but if it is everyone then everyone can start
I think this could work quite well
Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns
Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:35 pm
by Kotaro
Calling it a bug doesn't make it a bug. It's a perfectly valid strategy; if you don't like it don't play the game type. Don't change the game type for those that just aren't good at it.
Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns
Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:47 pm
by LFAW
I agree with Kotaro
Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns
Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 1:00 pm
by redhawk92
Kotaro wrote:Calling it a bug doesn't make it a bug. It's a perfectly valid strategy; if you don't like it don't play the game type. Don't change the game type for those that just aren't good at it.
Fred/Jeff wrote:And what about those of us that are good at it but would still like to see this loophole eliminated?
Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns
Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 1:40 pm
by cramill
Kotaro wrote:Calling it a bug doesn't make it a bug. It's a perfectly valid strategy;
"Perfectly valid strategy"!? Yeah right! Its a loophole that people exploit to get easy points.
Instructions Page wrote:The player who triggers a new round is blocked from taking a second back-to-back turn and must wait until either an opponent begins their turn or half of the round passes.
People argue that the person who runs out of time doesn't 'trigger a new round' but I say that it should. I say and many people agree that
every case of the last person going in a round should be blocked from taking a second back-to-back turn.
Kotaro wrote:if you don't like it don't play the game type. Don't change the game type for those that just aren't good at it.
Its not a matter of being "good" at it. Its about closing a loophole so people don't get screwed when they don't know about the loophole, and to avoid people exploiting the system to win games.
Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns
Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 1:46 pm
by cramill
I just wanted to restate another argument:
And just to clarify, anti-double-turn block is only meant to prevent "surprise" double turns when the round ends before the 24 hours are up. Any other sort of double turn (e.g. when someone didn't play or ran out of time) is allowed because everyone knows when the turn expires and it isn't a surprise.
I would say that it still can be a surprise. What if the round ends at 3 in the morning (or some other early or ridiculous time) for one game (people playing each other across the world)? Do you suspect that people would get up at that ridiculous hour just to check and see if someone is going? I think someone should be able to sleep well (not having to get up at some early hour) knowing that your opponents (in this case of a doubles freestyle game) can't take double turns.
Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns
Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:36 pm
by Manny Killer
The problem with double turns freestyle are two fold
1. As a new player, I kept losing in freestyle games until I wised-up on what was going on. GUys were taking back to back turns - first turn to break my chains and they'd barely take their bonus, and then take their turn with a bonus.
2. This wouldn't be a big deal except for the fact that if a freestyle game begins at 3am - it's a real pain in the butt. These double-turn takers just wait until 2am to play their turn and take another turn at 3:01am. Who wants to be up at 2am to deal with these buggers??? Not only that, it ensures the game will take the full 24 hours.
So I think there needs to be something done here. The simple solution is this, if you run out of time, you don't get to go again until half the round is over. Period. So don't run out of time!
Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns
Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 3:10 am
by Artimis
Kotaro wrote:Calling it a bug doesn't make it a bug. It's a perfectly valid strategy; if you don't like it don't play the game type. Don't change the game type for those that just aren't good at it.
You've missed the point, AGAIN!
From page 7, 8th post from the top:
Subject: Eliminate Freestyle Double TurnsArtimis(pertinent section) wrote:Before the usual suspects descend with the typical well worn record of "
If you don't like Freestyle, play Sequential instead." It's not Freestyle I've got the problem with, so take a back seat and listen carefully. It's the unintended exploit that is the result of a minor oversight when the
Freestyle Turn Delay was first implemented.
And from page 7 also, 5th post from the bottom:
Subject: Eliminate Freestyle Double TurnsArtimis wrote:obliterationX wrote:Makes it more strategic. Know how freestyle works before you join any games, that's what I say.
If double turns are so cool and such good strategy, then answer me this:
Why was a turn delay implemented for the player that ends the round in a freestyle game in the first place?
So Kotaro, why did they implement the turn lock out for the player that ends the previous round in freestyle, if not to prevent double turning? Players are just side stepping it by running the clock out, it's an oversight that needs addressing. Don't bother playing the old record of
if you don't like freestyle don't play, it's old and it doesn't cut it. Objective maps also highlight the need to correct this oversight.
NOTE: Only casual needs fixing as players may not be around when someone runs out the clock, in a speed game there is no advantage to running out the clock as all players are present through out the game.
Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns
Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 10:02 am
by Thezzaruz
Artimis wrote:NOTE: in a speed game there is no advantage to running out the clock as all players are present through out the game.
I would guess that "fixing" this for speed games too would mean a lot shorter turns and hence a lot less suggestions about "1 min turn options", that's got to be an improvement too.
All the rest I wholeheartedly agree with.
Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns
Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 10:12 am
by KoE_Sirius
poo-maker wrote:God damnit, what is it with people trying to change things that others like. First classic, now freestyle...
QFT...I have no idea what wrong with freestyle the way it is.
Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns
Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 12:06 pm
by cramill
Artimis wrote:NOTE: Only casual needs fixing as players may not be around when someone runs out the clock, in a speed game there is no advantage to running out the clock as all players are present through out the game.
I agree. I was going to say something like this as well and this sums it up well.
Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns
Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 2:25 pm
by lanyards
KoE_Sirius wrote:poo-maker wrote:God damnit, what is it with people trying to change things that others like. First classic, now freestyle...
QFT...I have no idea what wrong with freestyle the way it is.
QFT.
Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns
Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 2:31 pm
by longboreder
I don't play much freestyle, but this is valid issue since the freestyle instructions state:
After the last player takes his turn, a new round begins immediately. The player who triggers a new round is blocked from taking a second back-to-back turn and must wait until either an opponent begins their turn or half of the round passes.
Clearly, a player who can
1) deploy, attack, fortify, and then let time run out, and
2) then play first in the next round
is taking back-to-back turns. (To me, the spirit of the rule is to prevent back-to-back turns, aka "double turns".)
So either:
1) back-to-back turns are illegal at Conquer Club and the coding should be changed to prevent any back-to-back turns that occur in freestyle
2) the rules need to be changed to state (for example):
After the last player takes his turn, a new round begins immediately. The player who triggers a new round is blocked from taking a second back-to-back turn and must wait until either an opponent begins their turn or half of the round passes.
If the clock triggers a new round while a player is the middle of his/her turn, then no restriction is placed on that player taking back-to-back turns."
Either way, CONQUER CLUB SHOULD MAKE A DECISION WHICH ONE IT IS, to have the rules imply that double turns are illegal while allowing the situation to occur is inconsistent, to say the least. This thread is a year old, anybody home at CC? Would love to hear an official position so we can put this to rest.
Re: Eliminate Freestyle Double Turns
Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 3:40 pm
by Artimis
After this announcement:-
Subject: Auto-kicking multies & logging end of turnlackattack wrote:Logging end of turnNow you can always know exactly when a player clicked
End Reinforcement in a
no spoils game. The game log will now display either
X ended the turn or
X ended the turn and got spoils as the case may be. This should be particularly handy in shedding some light on confusing situations in freestyle games.
I'm hoping that an answer to this oversight is in the pipeline still, now that players ending their turns are logged.