Conquer Club

ksslemp wrote:Hey IZ,

Thank You for your service to this great country!
& God Bless!

Wow, thanks.
I'm just one of the countless.
Thanks go to not just those who have served and are currently serving, but all those who support them as well.

ksslemp wrote:

jay_a2j wrote:

AlgyTaylor wrote:

Anarchist wrote:First id like to point out that Im not a foreigner and I hate america too

....

(claps wildly)

Rosie? Is that you?

Why would someone continue to live in a country that they hate?
America is a free country, Citizens can come and go as they please.

If you do indeed "Hate" America, i suggest GO.

This remark is dircted towards Anarchist, oh and Rosie too!

Family? Roots? Jobs? Children? The right to Dissent?

Come on, this is a ridiculous argument. When the American colonies were part of the British Empire, you didn't just up and move out and go to France did you? Dissent is an essential part of democracy. We categorically should not agree 100% with everything our country or government does, else there is precious little need for elected officials and political parties. If we all wanted the same thing then why have elections? They show the majority, but democratic (sorry, representative republic) countries have at their core a range of differing viewpoints and ideologies without which we could never change, adapt and move forward. If everyone in Britain just moved out when they disagreed with how the country was run we wouldn't have nationwide free healthcare as a particular example, nor would slavery have ended if everyone who objected to it moved to countries where it was already abolished leaving a nation of those who agree with it. Women would never have had the vote, nor blacks, if everyone who hated their country with a passion for the things it does wrong had just moved.

Guiscard wrote:Come on, this is a ridiculous argument. When the American colonies were part of the British Empire, you didn't just up and move out and go to France did you? Dissent is an essential part of democracy. We categorically should not agree 100% with everything our country or government does, else there is precious little need for elected officials and political parties. If we all wanted the same thing then why have elections? They show the majority, but democratic (sorry, representative republic) countries have at their core a range of differing viewpoints and ideologies without which we could never change, adapt and move forward. If everyone in Britain just moved out when they disagreed with how the country was run we wouldn't have nationwide free healthcare as a particular example, nor would slavery have ended if everyone who objected to it moved to countries where it was already abolished leaving a nation of those who agree with it. Women would never have had the vote, nor blacks, if everyone who hated their country with a passion for the things it does wrong had just moved.

C'mon Guis......

In America, of course there is the right to dissent.
What we're seeing here is not dissent, coupled with a rational debate on how to change (anarchism is not rational). It is a blind hatred of (in this case) America.
It's one thing to disagree with the politicians in charge at any given time. That is certainly valid; but to spout off "I'm an American, and I hate America" is juvenile and pointless. Disagree with politicians, policies, government, or whatever; but if you're saying you hate you're own country, then you're saying you hate its history, traditions, culture, etc.
That's why I (and others) say if you hate America, then leave. Why expose yourself to such a horrible place if you don't like it to begin with?

Maybe because you (not you Guis) have no concept of your own history, language, traditions & culture, and just hate it out of ignorance.
Or maybe you're just a spoiled little brat who doesn't leave Mommy & Daddy's basement computer?

Iz Man wrote:

Guiscard wrote:Come on, this is a ridiculous argument. When the American colonies were part of the British Empire, you didn't just up and move out and go to France did you? Dissent is an essential part of democracy. We categorically should not agree 100% with everything our country or government does, else there is precious little need for elected officials and political parties. If we all wanted the same thing then why have elections? They show the majority, but democratic (sorry, representative republic) countries have at their core a range of differing viewpoints and ideologies without which we could never change, adapt and move forward. If everyone in Britain just moved out when they disagreed with how the country was run we wouldn't have nationwide free healthcare as a particular example, nor would slavery have ended if everyone who objected to it moved to countries where it was already abolished leaving a nation of those who agree with it. Women would never have had the vote, nor blacks, if everyone who hated their country with a passion for the things it does wrong had just moved.

C'mon Guis......

In America, of course there is the right to dissent.
What we're seeing here is not dissent, coupled with a rational debate on how to change (anarchism is not rational). It is a blind hatred of (in this case) America.
It's one thing to disagree with the politicians in charge at any given time. That is certainly valid; but to spout off "I'm an American, and I hate America" is juvenile and pointless. Disagree with politicians, policies, government, or whatever; but if you're saying you hate you're own country, then you're saying you hate its history, traditions, culture, etc.
That's why I (and others) say if you hate America, then leave. Why expose yourself to such a horrible place if you don't like it to begin with?

Maybe because you (not you Guis) have no concept of your own history, language, traditions & culture, and just hate it out of ignorance.
Or maybe you're just a spoiled little brat who doesn't leave Mommy & Daddy's basement computer?

Do you think the majority of African-Americans within the civil rights movement didn't hate America for the injustices it forced upon them? Do you not think that most of the suffragettes and suffragists hated Britain for what they saw as completely unjust repression? I sure as hell think they did, and that prompted serious change. I'm not saying his response was particularly developed or educated, but you cannot criticise someone for hating the country in which he or she lives and wanting it to change. That is the whole point of the democratic process and it is an integral part of the freedom of speech and civil rights you laud so obviously in other arguments.

Guiscard wrote:Do you think the majority of African-Americans within the civil rights movement didn't hate America for the injustices it forced upon them? Do you not think that most of the suffragettes and suffragists hated Britain for what they saw as completely unjust repression? I sure as hell think they did, and that prompted serious change. I'm not saying his response was particularly developed or educated, but you cannot criticise someone for hating the country in which he or she lives and wanting it to change. That is the whole point of the democratic process and it is an integral part of the freedom of speech and civil rights you laud so obviously in other arguments.

I see your point, but I put forth that Black people during and prior to the civil rights movement, women in their struggles, and whatever group falls into similar categories, did not hate their country. They loved it, but hated the policies put forth by those in power. Hence the struggle and desire for change. They loved their country, and wanted to see it to a better place.
We may be arguing the same point.
Where you see hatred of one's country, I see hatred of policy.

Iz Man wrote:They loved it, but hated the policies put forth by those in power. Hence the struggle and desire for change. They loved their country, and wanted to see it to a better place.
We may be arguing the same point.
Where you see hatred of one's country, I see hatred of policy.

I have a feeling that this may not happen all that often....but i happen to agree with this point. Anyones aim who wishes to change or stand in opposition to the policies of wherever they hail, should hope to do so out of the dream that they hope their country could be, rather than solely for the hatred of where things are at the moment.

Iz Man wrote:

Guiscard wrote:Do you think the majority of African-Americans within the civil rights movement didn't hate America for the injustices it forced upon them? Do you not think that most of the suffragettes and suffragists hated Britain for what they saw as completely unjust repression? I sure as hell think they did, and that prompted serious change. I'm not saying his response was particularly developed or educated, but you cannot criticise someone for hating the country in which he or she lives and wanting it to change. That is the whole point of the democratic process and it is an integral part of the freedom of speech and civil rights you laud so obviously in other arguments.

I see your point, but I put forth that Black people during and prior to the civil rights movement, women in their struggles, and whatever group falls into similar categories, did not hate their country. They loved it, but hated the policies put forth by those in power. Hence the struggle and desire for change. They loved their country, and wanted to see it to a better place.
We may be arguing the same point.
Where you see hatred of one's country, I see hatred of policy.

Then this is just semantics. I doubt what Anarchist alls hatred is anywhere near the same degree of loathing that civil rights activists or suffragettes had, whether it be for the country in its current state, the policies or whatever. What I am saying is that all he is stating, and all anyone who says 'I hate my country' is saying, is that they hate the current policies and state of affairs and hope that, in the future, it will be different.

Anyway, this discussion is pretty much over so I'll leave it now.

Guiscard wrote:

Iz Man wrote:

Guiscard wrote:Do you think the majority of African-Americans within the civil rights movement didn't hate America for the injustices it forced upon them? Do you not think that most of the suffragettes and suffragists hated Britain for what they saw as completely unjust repression? I sure as hell think they did, and that prompted serious change. I'm not saying his response was particularly developed or educated, but you cannot criticise someone for hating the country in which he or she lives and wanting it to change. That is the whole point of the democratic process and it is an integral part of the freedom of speech and civil rights you laud so obviously in other arguments.

I see your point, but I put forth that Black people during and prior to the civil rights movement, women in their struggles, and whatever group falls into similar categories, did not hate their country. They loved it, but hated the policies put forth by those in power. Hence the struggle and desire for change. They loved their country, and wanted to see it to a better place.
We may be arguing the same point.
Where you see hatred of one's country, I see hatred of policy.

Then this is just semantics. I doubt what Anarchist alls hatred is anywhere near the same degree of loathing that civil rights activists or suffragettes had, whether it be for the country in its current state, the policies or whatever. What I am saying is that all he is stating, and all anyone who says 'I hate my country' is saying, is that they hate the current policies and state of affairs and hope that, in the future, it will be different.

Anyway, this discussion is pretty much over so I'll leave it now.

Anarchists hate any form of order. They cling with an almost religious fervor to the foolish notion that people don't need to establish order and that individuals can do all the functions of market and state without having either. yeah, sure, whatever keeps you warm at night. Those who say, 'I hate my country' but mean to say 'this policy on (whatever topic) is stupid, so I'm going to (go random action) in order to change it' need to say what they mean (and mean what they say). Hardly semantics, rather Iz man is pointing out a key flaw in how these 'dissenters' are seen.

Jenos Ridan wrote:

Guiscard wrote:

Iz Man wrote:

Guiscard wrote:Do you think the majority of African-Americans within the civil rights movement didn't hate America for the injustices it forced upon them? Do you not think that most of the suffragettes and suffragists hated Britain for what they saw as completely unjust repression? I sure as hell think they did, and that prompted serious change. I'm not saying his response was particularly developed or educated, but you cannot criticise someone for hating the country in which he or she lives and wanting it to change. That is the whole point of the democratic process and it is an integral part of the freedom of speech and civil rights you laud so obviously in other arguments.

I see your point, but I put forth that Black people during and prior to the civil rights movement, women in their struggles, and whatever group falls into similar categories, did not hate their country. They loved it, but hated the policies put forth by those in power. Hence the struggle and desire for change. They loved their country, and wanted to see it to a better place.
We may be arguing the same point.
Where you see hatred of one's country, I see hatred of policy.

Then this is just semantics. I doubt what Anarchist alls hatred is anywhere near the same degree of loathing that civil rights activists or suffragettes had, whether it be for the country in its current state, the policies or whatever. What I am saying is that all he is stating, and all anyone who says 'I hate my country' is saying, is that they hate the current policies and state of affairs and hope that, in the future, it will be different.

Anyway, this discussion is pretty much over so I'll leave it now.

Anarchists hate any form of order. They cling with an almost religious fervor to the foolish notion that people don't need to establish order and that individuals can do all the functions of market and state without having either. yeah, sure, whatever keeps you warm at night. Those who say, 'I hate my country' but mean to say 'this policy on (whatever topic) is stupid, so I'm going to (go random action) in order to change it' need to say what they mean (and mean what they say). Hardly semantics, rather Iz man is pointing out a key flaw in how these 'dissenters' are seen.

I mean semantics in what 'hate' refers to. Saying 'I dislike current American foreign policy choices' without any explanation is just as ignorant as saying 'I hate America'. It's surely just the ignorance of youth! I strongly doubt the kid is a genuine Anarchist, or will be in a few years when political realities hit home...

Iz Man wrote:

Guiscard wrote:Come on, this is a ridiculous argument. When the American colonies were part of the British Empire, you didn't just up and move out and go to France did you? Dissent is an essential part of democracy. We categorically should not agree 100% with everything our country or government does, else there is precious little need for elected officials and political parties. If we all wanted the same thing then why have elections? They show the majority, but democratic (sorry, representative republic) countries have at their core a range of differing viewpoints and ideologies without which we could never change, adapt and move forward. If everyone in Britain just moved out when they disagreed with how the country was run we wouldn't have nationwide free healthcare as a particular example, nor would slavery have ended if everyone who objected to it moved to countries where it was already abolished leaving a nation of those who agree with it. Women would never have had the vote, nor blacks, if everyone who hated their country with a passion for the things it does wrong had just moved.

C'mon Guis......

In America, of course there is the right to dissent.
What we're seeing here is not dissent, coupled with a rational debate on how to change (anarchism is not rational). It is a blind hatred of (in this case) America.
It's one thing to disagree with the politicians in charge at any given time. That is certainly valid; but to spout off "I'm an American, and I hate America" is juvenile and pointless. Disagree with politicians, policies, government, or whatever; but if you're saying you hate you're own country, then you're saying you hate its history, traditions, culture, etc.
That's why I (and others) say if you hate America, then leave. Why expose yourself to such a horrible place if you don't like it to begin with?

Maybe because you (not you Guis) have no concept of your own history, language, traditions & culture, and just hate it out of ignorance.
Or maybe you're just a spoiled little brat who doesn't leave Mommy & Daddy's basement computer?

Thanks Guiscard,

Iz, Im glad to see that political correctness is still the driving force of the right wing movement. Imsorry that Idid not write a book defining what it means to hate the symbol that represents a nation, by saying I hate America I could also be advocating my avid hatred of the mountains,rivers,and valleys that are located in the United States. They truly are the root of all evil

I strongly dislike the current administration,materialistic values, propaganda, along with all the other injustices and inequalities that the current government of the USA is responsible for, along with any people who support these injustices and inequalities,or those who pretend that the current situations as listed above arent happening in this nation....

it was much easier to say I hate America, considering your poll asks why foreigners hate America?

What this nation was supposed to be is truly great.The land of the free, equal oppertunity,etc..
too bad its all a bunch of bullshit.

our proud history? Yes,you should be very proud with your slavery,witch hunts, genocide of the Native Americans, foreign military coups,Invasions,material values,worlds highest imprisonment rates,and etc.. Americas hands are not clean, nor has it ever been the land that it was claiming to be. Your national pride is a fairy tale. While I wish to read the declaration of independence to the leaders of this nation, you simply wish to congratulate them for what they have done. Hoping that they will accept you into their little circle of mansions and silicone.

When did this turn into a debate about how to make America better?
The title of this thread is why the world hates america, I was simply pointing out some of the things that this great nation supports, you know like war.

if you want to disscuss how to make this country better lets get started.
reinstatement of the constitution in full,national healthcare, higher taxes for the wealthy, focusing on becoming an independent nation, getting out of debt, giving states their individuality back(state law vs. federal)
I also think we should create an agency that searches through the 3 million laws in this country and removes any unconstitutional ones, along with outdated ones. You know like imprisonment for flying a red flag in Oklahoma(Oklahomas first flag was Red) - IMO

As for why I havent left yet, could you loan me about $5,000 that will get me out of debt and on my way to a new future. I do believe in the Individualism of Anarchy. One man,one voice. No man can tell another man what to do. However socialism seems far more complete in its approach, requiring far less checks and balances then your economics. A lot more upside too.(I cant change my name!)

... This thread gets more and more entertaining, day by day.

... Firstly, the very topic is moving on the assumption that the United States is hated by the rest of the world. It is in fact not. I say this, having been on every continent but Antarctica over the past several years and having spoken with a great many people.

... So who does hate the US? Aside from the obvious, Islamic fundamentalists and the like, I believe very few people truly hate the US. Certainly a great many people feel dissatisfaction with a lot of things, but more than they might like to admit, those dissatisfactions are the result of their own bad decisions. (I'm speaking now of Americans who hate America)

... Then you can bring politics into the argument, but politics really supports no argument. Those saying how much they hate the US today might very well be praising the same after a Hillary Clinton landslide in 2008... (God forbid) .. when the country itself has not really changed at all.

... Poor decisions in life, combined with a lack of factual knowledge are the primary culprits, imho. I make no claims at being expert in any field but my own, but I know that to argue, armed only with what you've seen on TV or read on some web site someplace, is foolish.

... Alarmingly, I've noticed a change in younger Americans in recent years as well. Too many, on both sides of the political fence, put on those blinders and walk in lock-step with their peers. It becomes impossible for them to see faults with both, or to praise both President Bush and, say... Nancy Pelosi. They cannot even hear you if your opinion differs from theirs. It is one, or the other, always. It's like religion, and it scares the hell out of me.

....

Nobunaga wrote:... This thread gets more and more entertaining, day by day.

... Firstly, the very topic is moving on the assumption that the United States is hated by the rest of the world. It is in fact not. I say this, having been on every continent but Antarctica over the past several years and having spoken with a great many people.

That is the most friggin naive and ignorant comment i have read in quite a while. You cant have spoken to many people, and how does your being to every continent but Antarctica justify your point of view being any more valid than any one elses??

Ugh.

Stopper wrote:If I may be so bold as to summarise the above: of course jay thinks he's better than everyone else; what do you expect? He's a friggin' devout Christian!

* shudders at the thought....

To the post above Jay's, I've heard long tales about how hated america is in the world in general. Until I see some proof, I'm not going to make a decision on this.

To Jay, of course you should be shocked to heard such ignorance. Stopper is a devout atheist !

Whether you love or hate America, you've really got to hand it to American school children. The poor things have to memorize the names of like 50 states (and their capitals). That's a lot to remember! You can hardly blame Americans for not understanding the rest of the world when they have so much to learn about themselves.

jc103 wrote:

Nobunaga wrote:... This thread gets more and more entertaining, day by day.

... Firstly, the very topic is moving on the assumption that the United States is hated by the rest of the world. It is in fact not. I say this, having been on every continent but Antarctica over the past several years and having spoken with a great many people.

That is the most friggin naive and ignorant comment i have read in quite a while. You cant have spoken to many people, and how does your being to every continent but Antarctica justify your point of view being any more valid than any one elses??

Ugh.

Nobunaga, your comments were neither "naive" nor "ignorant". If your experience and education level were the same as jc103's and then added your extra experiences on the different continents, your viewpoint would of course be more valid!

Rock On!

Jolly Roger wrote:Whether you love or hate America, you've really got to hand it to American school children. The poor things have to memorize the names of like 50 states (and their capitals). That's a lot to remember! You can hardly blame Americans for not understanding the rest of the world when they have so much to learn about themselves.

I know the states, but only a few of the capitals. But then, I was always good at reading, but not so great at boring writting assignments. History and Geography, I liked them both. And not just the US either. Just remember, there are Americans who are well aware of the outside world.

Jenos Ridan wrote:Just remember, there are Americans who are well aware of the outside world.

Even if they have never been there.

So who does hate the US? Aside from the obvious, Islamic fundamentalists and the like, I believe very few people truly hate the US. Certainly a great many people feel dissatisfaction with a lot of things, but more than they might like to admit, those dissatisfactions are the result of their own bad decisions.

So people dont like the USA because of themselves?!? People who hate it, they hate it because they did something in their life, and because of this they hate it? Explain please.

Those saying how much they hate the US today might very well be praising the same after a Hillary Clinton landslide in 2008... (God forbid) .. when the country itself has not really changed at all.

But the people running the country and what it stands for and the policies have changed completely. Thats a big change...

Poor decisions in life, combined with a lack of factual knowledge are the primary culprits, imho.

Poor decisions in life - nothing to do with it. Try to explain that point at least. Lack of factual evidence - theres plenty of evidence in teh Americans thread, and you can find any amount of proof in a library or internet or university books very easily about the bad points of USA.

Firstly, the very topic is moving on the assumption that the United States is hated by the rest of the world. It is in fact not. I say this, having been on every continent but Antarctica over the past several years and having spoken with a great many people.

America may not be hated by the rest of the world, but very few people like it.

Backglass wrote:

Jenos Ridan wrote:Just remember, there are Americans who are well aware of the outside world.

Even if they have never been there.

Yeah, well, Canada doesn't count as 'going abroad' the way I see things. Japan, oh yes very much so. Europe, duh. Savvy?