Conquer Club

Ok, I really like this map, well, the large one at least. Risk Napoleon Edition is what solidified my love for the game and we totally need a Napoleonic Europe map. I think the use of battles, the various sea routes and capitals do make for a unique gameplay and will separate the map from the other 9 billion Europe maps we've got.

But the small map is impossible to read. There's no way the graphics mods are going to pass this and keep their jobs. There has to be a better way to make the smaller map.

I think removing a lot of elements, such as the names over the territories. If you took out Poland and The Rhine, for example, you'd have a lot more breathing space. I would suggest that using the legend with the colors ought to be enough.

You've got complaints on the text size too... which I tend to be a little skeptical about given my experience with 13 Colonies... but I'd suggest having a back up plan for a more easily readable text for the small map should it become a problem in Beta.

I think you're going to have to adjust some borders... Look at switzeland for example. Cut a little more into France so you can fit everything on there.

In portugal, lose the words Portugal as I suggested above, and straighten out Opurto and fit everything in there better.

Perhaps you could swap out the swords as well for something smaller. I don't see why the usual military map black crossed swords won't do for the small version. This will also help with space.

Aquitane has lost its A, border revision.

Redraw the line borders around Valencia to make everything work there.

Kingdom of Italy is troublesome. If you ditch The Rhine, elevate the mountains and fit things in better. If you change the swords, throw a life preserver to 'of' and get him back on land.

The words Odessa could move up a tad.

The list goes on, but I think you should make the two primary suggestions I had of 1) Get rid of the regional bonus names and 2) change the swords out for something a bit smaller. From there, adjust everything so that it fits in neatly and the small map would be much more clear and suffer no loss in gameplay.

Kab, I don't want to cause WWIII; can you please deal with it as you see fit?

Raskholnikov wrote:I haven't checked in here for a while... at some point I think the "uniqueness" has been lost on this map...

Was that before or after your "unique" attempt at a modern Europe map and gameplay?

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Please don't make this into a personal attack.

All I was trying to do was to point out that the gameplay feels very similar to two other maps of the same area. If I were purely criticising the fact it's a map of Europe, there are a handful of other maps I could have thrown in for good measure.

My concern is that there is far too much going on in the small map to make the gameplay easily distinguishable. The legend colours/symbols do not help me to identify how much bonus a specific area is worth, and the multicoloured outlines compete with each other for my attention, so that I find it very difficult to see what goes together.

The graphics are indeed very good - Kabanellas has my utmost respect as one of the more skilled artists currently working in the foundry. My complaint here is that I am am unconvinced that the visual appeal of the map compensates for the gameplay confusion.

Well, for whatever it's worth, we do have the Gameplay stamp. If the graphics are good, let's have this Beta tested and see what the end users - the players - think. This map has been in development for over 7 months now and it could easily stay in here for another 7 from the looks of it. Let's have it Beta-tested, get player feedback, and go from there. It's the surest way to resolve any outstanding arguments though real player feedback rather than personality clashes. If the players' majority verdict is that the map needs changes - fiar enough. We'll try to implement as many as possible. If, on the other hand, they love it and do not find it unclear or complicated. then again those who criticise it now will recognise that their fears were unfounded. Beta-testing is really the only way to move ahead without letting this degenerate into unseemly arguments. What is there to lose by letting the players Beta-test it? Strictly nothing. So let's get on with it and see what the only feedback that really counts looks like.

Um, it doesn't work like that. "Let's Beta test it and figure out problems as they come up" isn't a sound way of doing things. Plus this isn't a majority-votes kind of situation: if 51% of players think the small map is perfectly fine, but the other 49% think it's hard to read, then that's not a win for you.

Yeah, the large map is fine, and you guys should be congratulated for that (tho I'd be curious to know how many of the lauds posted on the previous page were specifically in reference to the large map), but the small map is still extremely cluttered and difficult to read. I don't know if Helix's suggested fixes will completely solve the problem, but they're worth trying. I can appreciate that the map's been in production for seven months, but to be honest, if you hadn't completely blown me off six months ago when I told you that the small map was going to be a problem, you could have gotten out in front of the issue.

ok guys

let me take a good hard look at the small map, put myself in the skin of someone who has just find it... and try to come up with something that could ease things a bit.

I think yeti is right. In the small map, having trouble reading it.

But I will say this. The large map is beautiful and the legend is as well. So I would almost say screw the small map if it will damage the quality of the large maps beauty. Im a small map player too.

Guys I feel for you because of all the work that has gone into this. I think ive been noted on how I feel about the europe map. I hope in the future that euro maps get a harder look taken at them in the earlier stages. probably not the time to say "we dont want another euro map" after the work that has gone into this.

Im mixed on whether I want it to pass. And im a napoleon fanatic. Had to study him at length in school, or at least his battle plans.

good luck

Well then, let's compromise. Let's Beta test the large map and get feedback on that (including the smaller map), while at the same time improving the smaller one. This will allow us to get player feedback on both game-play and graphics for both, and come up with a better smaller map 2.0. The fact that "it isn't done like that" is no excuse for not trying to improve the process. If Kab, after the huge amount of work he has put into this, is willing to reconsider the small map, the least we can do is Beta test the larger one so that we can come up with a version 2.o that will incorporate both the suggestions of the foundry and those of the players. It makes perfect sense. The fact that it has not been done before is simply not a sound reason for not giving it a try. It has nothing to do with being impatient; and everything to do with developing a more efficient and effective process and getting all the relevant feeback from various sources in order to come up with an improved version. Finally, please remember: you are not doing me - or us - a favour by bringing this game to Beta; we are the ones adding a new product for free to your site. The moment the sheer unpleasantness of this process overtakes our love for the game, we will just walk away. This is in no way a threat; just a simple fact of life. This is my free time and I want to relax and enjoy it; the moment this is no longer the case, I have many other things I can do rather than get aggravated with yet another bureaucratic and slow-moving process for no other reason than because "it isn't done like that". That's simply not good enough.

well man, i feel ya. But everything in life has a process... If we didnt here we would have "Beef-cut" maps and such. :S

I don't think they are going to change a process that seems like it has ,and is working so long.

I would advise the compromise just be to open up your editor and make the fonts just a little larger or less cursive. I wouldnt revamp the whole thing, but I would take the small map criticism serious. This website has many many many users, they cant ignore the small laptop group that has to play small maps. Taht being said, not sure If I would change it a lot.. just enough to meet the criticism.


im done with the thread... good luck.

Thanks for the contribution, Army. I certainly appreciate the time you took and you did convince me that taking a second look at the small map would help. See you in gameplay!

Raskholnikov wrote:...walloftext...

The Beta process simply cannot go ahead with only 1 version of the map... How would small map viewers play it?

I think the process is working fine here - although it would've worked better if you hadn't ignored some pretty important posts along the way and attempted to steamroll over the issues...

C.

There are no issues. The only reason the small map is being attacked is for you guys to show that you are relevant and powerful. That shows that the process is a disaster. That's why you won't let the map go to Beta. You know players will love it and prove all your comments wrong. So you want to force us to make changes before Beta so they become irreversible and you maintain your power to bludgeon everyone into submission who passes through your crazy process. That's simply wrong. I for one am for withdrawing our map, Kab. It's just not worth it. Why should we give our work to these people? It makes no sense. Your call though. But I vote to get out of here and not look back. They don't deserve your efforts. Enough is enough.

Raskholnikov wrote:There are no issues.

The whole point of the foundry is that it's not your decision to make.

Raskholnikov wrote:The only reason the small map is being attacked is for you guys to show that you are relevant and powerful. That shows that the process is a disaster. That's why you won't let the map go to Beta. You know players will love it and prove all your comments wrong. So you want to force us to make changes before Beta so they become irreversible and you maintain your power to bludgeon everyone into submission who passes through your crazy process. That's simply wrong.

You're right, that is wrong. As in incorrect. I'm not taking time out of my day just to mess with you. The small map, as currently constituted, is not fit for live play. Certainly this is my opinion, but it's also the opinion of several others. If you're not willing to even make a good-faith gesture to rectify the problem, then I don't know what to tell ya.

Raskholnikov wrote:I for one am for withdrawing our map, Kab. It's just not worth it. Why should we give our work to these people? It makes no sense. Your call though. But I vote to get out of here and not look back. They don't deserve your efforts. Enough is enough.

Look, the foundry is all about peer review. Sometimes people are going to say things you don't like, or personally think are untrue. If that's going to be a problem, then maybe you should take a back seat and let Kab bring this map to the finish line. Unlike you, he's been through this process before, and he strikes me as a reasonable fellow who up the page a bit acknowledged that there might be a problem and that he's willing to work on it. He can handle the hard-core detail work the foundry demands. Not everyone can. So rather than take your ball and go home, pipe down, let the adults figure things out, and sit confident in the fact that once this whole process comes to its conclusion, you'll be co-author of one of the better maps on the site. It's a good map, all we're trying to do is make it better.

Raskholnikov wrote:There are no issues. The only reason the small map is being attacked is for you guys to show that you are relevant and powerful. That shows that the process is a disaster. That's why you won't let the map go to Beta. You know players will love it and prove all your comments wrong. So you want to force us to make changes before Beta so they become irreversible and you maintain your power to bludgeon everyone into submission who passes through your crazy process. That's simply wrong. I for one am for withdrawing our map, Kab. It's just not worth it. Why should we give our work to these people? It makes no sense. Your call though. But I vote to get out of here and not look back. They don't deserve your efforts. Enough is enough.

Hello Raskholnikov,

I have no bias here, I'm not a mapmaker, and don't take sides so just wanted to quickly present how this is looking to an outsider.
I would love to play this map. The thing is, the small map does need to be made clearer - the reason is that a huge number of members have small screen resolution so have no option but to play the small map. For someone new to the map and forced to play on a small version, it is honestly not clear enough. This is why BETA testing the large map isn't thorough enough, because there may be lots of mistakes on the small map that don't get revealed. I think this map is a brilliant piece of work, please do the people who genuinely want to start playing it a favour and let kab get on with the small map to push it into BETA rather than damage its chances (kab has also put a hell of a lot of work into it, so has ender516 so think of them too).

kab, please try and expedite the changes to the small map when you have the time, that would solve the problem, I realise how long this has taken but it won't be much longer.

Rask is far more impatient than I am, so I understand that he might feel a bit frustrated with the attrition caused by all this process.

...moving on, I’ve revised the small map:

-enlarged the fonts in the legend
-adjusted region names spacing between letters
-redraw some borders now and then to adjust spacing needs
-made a version without country names in it

#1- Version 35 (small)
[bigimg]http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af105/Kabanellas/NapoleonicEurope_V35_Image_small.png[/bigimg]

#2 - Version 35 (small) - no country names
[bigimg]http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af105/Kabanellas/NapoleonicEurope_V35_Image_small_nt.png[/bigimg]

2 more versions:

#3 - blended country names
[bigimg]http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af105/Kabanellas/NapoleonicEurope_V35_Image_small-1.png[/bigimg]

#4 - blended country names in white
[bigimg]http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af105/Kabanellas/NapoleonicEurope_V35_Image_small_xv.png[/bigimg]

Well, i don't like the country names in whte because it just furthers the fact that they can barely be read when they were in color. I think they're unnecessary and its best for clarity's sake to keep them out. Can we get the no-names with numbers? The map is readable without numbers but when you get those 888's in there that is when it becomes a problem.

You're well on your way to getting the small map to be more playable. Personally I like the Kingdom names in white(v4) but likely the best way to go will be without them entirely. The next thing you really have to do, as has already been suggested is to fudge borders to better fit things on the map. And consider shortening territory names, I mean Romanian Principalities? I think you can really get away with just "Romania" and we'll all know what you mean.

The best option IMO would be to go with no country names on the small version. You could still have them on the large though.

The text is looking much better and more legible.

ok, I've tested with 888 on the 2 best version:

[bigimg]http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af105/Kabanellas/NapoleonicEurope_V35_Image_small_n_.png[/bigimg]

[bigimg]http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af105/Kabanellas/NapoleonicEurope_V35_Image_small-2.png[/bigimg]

Ender there are a ‘couple’ of numbers that need to be changed.

[spoiler=Changes]Large map:
1 left
• Oporto
• Valencia
2 left
• Yorkshire
3 left and 1 down
• London

Small map:
1 left
• Extremadura
• Valencia
• Sussex
• Denmark
• Naples
• Warsaw
• Serbia
• Krakow
2 left
• Silesia
4 left
• Berlin
5 left
• Switzerland
1 up
• Scotland
• Stockholm
• Malmo
2 up
• West Prussia
1 up and 1 left
• Moscow
• East Prussia
1 up and 1 left
• Paris
1 up and 3 left
• Madrid
1 up and 1 right
• Yorkshire
4 up and 1 left
• Egypt
8 down and 1 right
• Aquitaine[/spoiler]

Hmmm - that bottom right legend is still pretty tricky to read - is it possible to find a font that is "less italic" than your current one?

Or perhaps embolden that one?

In the most part - the changes are good though and you're not far off.

C.

The only graphic nitpick that I have concerns the lower left legend. The background image is obscured to the point of nonrecognition. I suggest finding a different background for it. I do not recommend a picture.

Very nice looking map Kab.

Thanks Porken!

I had to obscure it a bit so it won't blend with the letters.. in the large map it works far better though..

porkenbeans wrote:The only graphic nitpick that I have concerns the lower left legend. The background image is obscured to the point of nonrecognition. I suggest finding a different background for it. I do not recommend a picture.

Very nice looking map Kab.

yeti_c wrote:Hmmm - that bottom right legend is still pretty tricky to read - is it possible to find a font that is "less italic" than your current one?

Or perhaps embolden that one?

In the most part - the changes are good though and you're not far off.

C.

I'll try that Yeti