The Fundamental Problem with Permanent Bans

[b.k. barunt]

Like i said, they're locking down half of the threads that bring this subject up. Does that sound like they give a shit about anything we're saying?


Honibaz

[b.k. barunt]

People really need to learn to listen.

That they do, indeed. Although, I suspect it's not just the ones you're referring to.

I was not referring to anyone, or any group in particular. We all say we can listen, but I've learned through various techniques at work that less than 3% of us really listen. I've learned that it is very difficult to learn, and even harder to teach. The forum goers need to know that people are listening, even if action has not been taken, will not be taken, or will be taken. Do not interpret lack of action to be passive acceptance of the issue. I wish people would worry about themselves and not what others are doing.

Aren't you the one that said "I should be able to have some fun with these whiny threads too"? Is that what you're doing now? Just wondered, cause i'd say this post would make you a strong candidate for the hypocrisy poster boy.


Honibaz

[jpcloet]

You are absolutely right there. A number of posters have jumped all over me for that smart-ass comment. I likely didn't judge the audience properly and how passionate some of the posters were/are. I do hear the concerns of the threads and personally I don't like perma-anything. I've had a number of great conversations outside of these threads. I was being too general, however, I am a player first and it didn't take long for some people to push me into the mod-corner because my name is in teal and assuming I have to act like a mod in every single post. Apparently my personal opinions don't count. There are several posters who complain about everything, and in doing so, some legitimate concerns are being diluted by that complain about everything group.

Early on I opened up the option of working together and very few people reached back.
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=91670#p2110203

[b.k. barunt]

Didn't see the "reach out" post before, but if it's suggestions you want, there's a plethora of them out there on these complaint threads. Have you responded to any of them? You might have to take the time to read the threads.


Honibaz

[jpcloet]

I certainly have and I like where this is headed.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=91722

[AAFitz]

Didn't see the "reach out" post before, but if it's suggestions you want, there's a plethora of them out there on these complaint threads. Have you responded to any of them? You might have to take the time to read the threads.


Honibaz

Well, BK, I spent quite a bit of time responding to every point you made in a thread, and you obviously didnt read it, because you didnt respond to any of my comments... so before you go suggesting other people arent taking the time to read...perhaps you should.

As useful as just posting that people are always making mistakes, and that they must be asskissing selfrighteous prigs... maybe reading why they feel this way is relevant....or, just skip it for the quick an easy post...

IMO there is not fundamental problem with a perma ban. To think that someone, who after repeated attempts to sabotage the forum will stop after some repeated number of 7 day bans or something is just delusional, or naive at best. Im not suggesting that the perma ban should not be the last resort, and I'd love to see perhaps a more graduated system. However, with most of the people banned that Ive seen. It has been obvious that there is no ban ever, that will make them stop breaking the forum rules, except a forum ban. Using Xtra as an example...Is there anyone that believes anything less than a perma ban would get him to stop crossing the line. That there was any warning possible that would make him come back, and bite his tongue. Not a one year ban, not a ten year ban. Anyone with that much passion for breaking the rules, will continue to break them. That is the purpose of the warnings. So, there is no problem with the perma-ban whatsoever. Its an obvious and necessary evil. Further, to suggest that a website should spend time and resources banning someone for 7 days or some longer period indefinitely is just ridiculous.

For a useful solution to this, perhaps a more graduated banning process is possible. However, the bans would have to get progressively longer to be of any real deterrent. You cant ban someone for a day, and expect any kind of change. If someone is out to cause trouble, they are out to cause trouble, and will never, ever stop doing that. The short bans and warnings, are obviously for those players that can use a warning shot across the bow. Many, who may not even know they broke a rule, and for others that obviously need to know the site is serious about enforcing the rules.

So, suggesting a perma ban is not useful or needed is pointless. This is self evident I believe. However, maybe some longer ban periods could be institued first, such as 6 month, or 1 year even. This if nothing else would relieve some of the severity of the perma ban, and if a player cant come back and play nice after a full year off, then they never will, and the perma ban is clearly the only way to keep them from wasting the mods time.

Most of this is obvious to anyone whos really thought about it. Its fun to try to fight the system, to try to get as much as possible, and hope that the sheer volume of complaints will somehow justify the argument, but reasonable people, even the ones who play such games...and make no mistake...im one of them....know better.

Further, We all know, that no matter what happens, what decisions are made, what rules are out there, there will be an outcry of complaints forever. Always. Some people just like to complain. They always will. Nothing will stop that, except them leaving, or hell freezing over. And even then youll get complaints, because some will argue that hell freezing over was natural, and others will complain that we caused it with C02 emissions. The argument will continue until the last breath is taken, by the last person.

[TheProwler]

...

Further, We all know, that no matter what happens, what decisions are made, what rules are out there, there will be an outcry of complaints forever. Always. Some people just like to complain. They always will. Nothing will stop that, except them leaving, or hell freezing over. And even then youll get complaints, because some will argue that hell freezing over was natural, and others will complain that we caused it with C02 emissions. The argument will continue until the last breath is taken, by the last person.

See your first paragraph.

[b.k. barunt]

Didn't see the "reach out" post before, but if it's suggestions you want, there's a plethora of them out there on these complaint threads. Have you responded to any of them? You might have to take the time to read the threads.


Honibaz

Well, BK, I spent quite a bit of time responding to every point you made in a thread, and you obviously didnt read it, because you didnt respond to any of my comments... so before you go suggesting other people arent taking the time to read...perhaps you should.

As useful as just posting that people are always making mistakes, and that they must be asskissing selfrighteous prigs... maybe reading why they feel this way is relevant....or, just skip it for the quick an easy post...

IMO there is not fundamental problem with a perma ban. To think that someone, who after repeated attempts to sabotage the forum will stop after some repeated number of 7 day bans or something is just delusional, or naive at best. Im not suggesting that the perma ban should not be the last resort, and I'd love to see perhaps a more graduated system. However, with most of the people banned that Ive seen. It has been obvious that there is no ban ever, that will make them stop breaking the forum rules, except a forum ban. Using Xtra as an example...Is there anyone that believes anything less than a perma ban would get him to stop crossing the line. That there was any warning possible that would make him come back, and bite his tongue. Not a one year ban, not a ten year ban. Anyone with that much passion for breaking the rules, will continue to break them. That is the purpose of the warnings. So, there is no problem with the perma-ban whatsoever. Its an obvious and necessary evil. Further, to suggest that a website should spend time and resources banning someone for 7 days or some longer period indefinitely is just ridiculous.

For a useful solution to this, perhaps a more graduated banning process is possible. However, the bans would have to get progressively longer to be of any real deterrent. You cant ban someone for a day, and expect any kind of change. If someone is out to cause trouble, they are out to cause trouble, and will never, ever stop doing that. The short bans and warnings, are obviously for those players that can use a warning shot across the bow. Many, who may not even know they broke a rule, and for others that obviously need to know the site is serious about enforcing the rules.

So, suggesting a perma ban is not useful or needed is pointless. This is self evident I believe. However, maybe some longer ban periods could be institued first, such as 6 month, or 1 year even. This if nothing else would relieve some of the severity of the perma ban, and if a player cant come back and play nice after a full year off, then they never will, and the perma ban is clearly the only way to keep them from wasting the mods time.

Most of this is obvious to anyone whos really thought about it. Its fun to try to fight the system, to try to get as much as possible, and hope that the sheer volume of complaints will somehow justify the argument, but reasonable people, even the ones who play such games...and make no mistake...im one of them....know better.

Further, We all know, that no matter what happens, what decisions are made, what rules are out there, there will be an outcry of complaints forever. Always. Some people just like to complain. They always will. Nothing will stop that, except them leaving, or hell freezing over. And even then youll get complaints, because some will argue that hell freezing over was natural, and others will complain that we caused it with C02 emissions. The argument will continue until the last breath is taken, by the last person.

Fitz, i will readily admit to not taking the time to read this or any of your long winded, self satisfied paeans to diarrhea of the mouth. Whatthefuck does that have to do with this thread? If i had indicated that i was interested in what you had to say, and then didn't read your long winded, couldasaidthesamein25wordsorlessbutidosolovetotalk exercizes in verbosity, then there might be a similarity and you would not simply be trolling here, but i didn't indicate such, and i really have no interest in your typical sychophantic drivel.

JCloet indicated an interest in suggestions, and i can see from his post that he did in fact take the time to read at least one of them. This is a gesture of good faith on his part as far as i'm concerned, but has very little, if anything to do with you and me, so please take your trolling elsewhere.


Honibaz

[mpjh]

Geez, BK it is really difficult to tell what do you want.

[timmytuttut88]

Geez, BK it is really difficult to tell what do you want.

It's also hard to tell whether or not you can write a coherent sentence.

[PLAYER57832]

I certainly have and I like where this is headed.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=91722

I believe the thread with the most real suggestions is the one asking for 6 months instead of a permaban.

however, greekdog brought up a good point. Aside from the fact that some people do seem to be dropping into spam, there are really 3 issues here that need to be dealt with and not just mashed into one problem.

1. What should and should not be allowed on the forums?


2. Are the rules enforced with reasonable equality?


3. Should the punishments be changed?



All three of these issues need to be dealt with, but they are not going to be fixed with one modification. Fixing the punishments, but not changing (or considering changes to) why people are being punished will leave many people still unhappy. Similarly, if there is a fundamental disparity in enforcement, that will override any other changes.

[b.k. barunt]

Good points Player, and i would beg to add one more key issue that needs to be aired again:

4. Disciplinary actions should be public. We are affected by the offense, and we are affected by the discipline - we as members have a right to know.


Honibaz

[jpcloet]

Which actions, like all notes/warnings? Can you clarify?

[Bruceswar]

Which actions, like all notes/warnings? Can you clarify?

There should be a sub forum for only mods to post it in. I will say things like...

Bruceswar - Warning - Simple reason why in the thread and lost.

Owenshooter - 1 Month Ban - Trolling...

Or whatever....

[Timminz]

Which actions, like all notes/warnings? Can you clarify?

There should be a sub forum for only mods to post it in. I will say things like...

Bruceswar - Warning - Simple reason why in the thread and lost.

Owenshooter - 1 Month Ban - Trolling...

Or whatever....

I like this. I realize that it is highly unlikely to ever happen, but I still like it.

[b.k. barunt]

It would certainly show a willingness on the part of the admins to deal more honestly with us.


Honibaz

[mpjh]

Isn't this sort of a score card for the bad boys, and doesn't it reveal personal information about an indivicual?

[jpcloet]

That is just going to lead to some people questioning every single decision. I still don't understand why it is the public's "right"to know. Discipline actions are between CC and the player. The counter argument being that clan leaders in some cases (I know Twill has done this) have been given the heads up that certain players need to check themselves. However, I would argue that clan leaders have not been able to sufficiently monitor their own players historically. I could see the value about posting significant punishments, and a general summary of actions that led to such an event.

[owenshooter]

Isn't this sort of a score card for the bad boys, and doesn't it reveal personal information about an indivicual?

you are assuming that people that receive punishments are bad. "the bad boys" are the ones here driving this forum and this discussion forward. we may not have doo doo coloured mod names, like yourself, but we are a vital part of this forum. and when you consider the fact that many repeat offenders are treated unjustly due to past rule infractions, and that many additional bans/punishments are unwarranted or unjustified, who are the bad boys? pull your head out mpjh, just because you have a couloured name does not make you any more vital to this forum than we are. look at the most significant changes made within the forums this year, and they are driven by many of the perceived "trouble makers". label us as you will, but it can't change the fact that your one sentence responses to serious questions are nowhere near as helpful as posts by people like timminz, jiminski, et al... a coloured name does not give you license to troll/spam a topic, and it surely desn't make our opinion any more relevant or vital...-0

[jpcloet]

Agreed, there are several good people, who have had some bad moments.

[AAFitz]

Didn't see the "reach out" post before, but if it's suggestions you want, there's a plethora of them out there on these complaint threads. Have you responded to any of them? You might have to take the time to read the threads.


Honibaz

Well, BK, I spent quite a bit of time responding to every point you made in a thread, and you obviously didnt read it, because you didnt respond to any of my comments... so before you go suggesting other people arent taking the time to read...perhaps you should.

As useful as just posting that people are always making mistakes, and that they must be asskissing selfrighteous prigs... maybe reading why they feel this way is relevant....or, just skip it for the quick an easy post...

IMO there is not fundamental problem with a perma ban. To think that someone, who after repeated attempts to sabotage the forum will stop after some repeated number of 7 day bans or something is just delusional, or naive at best. Im not suggesting that the perma ban should not be the last resort, and I'd love to see perhaps a more graduated system. However, with most of the people banned that Ive seen. It has been obvious that there is no ban ever, that will make them stop breaking the forum rules, except a forum ban. Using Xtra as an example...Is there anyone that believes anything less than a perma ban would get him to stop crossing the line. That there was any warning possible that would make him come back, and bite his tongue. Not a one year ban, not a ten year ban. Anyone with that much passion for breaking the rules, will continue to break them. That is the purpose of the warnings. So, there is no problem with the perma-ban whatsoever. Its an obvious and necessary evil. Further, to suggest that a website should spend time and resources banning someone for 7 days or some longer period indefinitely is just ridiculous.

For a useful solution to this, perhaps a more graduated banning process is possible. However, the bans would have to get progressively longer to be of any real deterrent. You cant ban someone for a day, and expect any kind of change. If someone is out to cause trouble, they are out to cause trouble, and will never, ever stop doing that. The short bans and warnings, are obviously for those players that can use a warning shot across the bow. Many, who may not even know they broke a rule, and for others that obviously need to know the site is serious about enforcing the rules.

So, suggesting a perma ban is not useful or needed is pointless. This is self evident I believe. However, maybe some longer ban periods could be institued first, such as 6 month, or 1 year even. This if nothing else would relieve some of the severity of the perma ban, and if a player cant come back and play nice after a full year off, then they never will, and the perma ban is clearly the only way to keep them from wasting the mods time.

Most of this is obvious to anyone whos really thought about it. Its fun to try to fight the system, to try to get as much as possible, and hope that the sheer volume of complaints will somehow justify the argument, but reasonable people, even the ones who play such games...and make no mistake...im one of them....know better.

Further, We all know, that no matter what happens, what decisions are made, what rules are out there, there will be an outcry of complaints forever. Always. Some people just like to complain. They always will. Nothing will stop that, except them leaving, or hell freezing over. And even then youll get complaints, because some will argue that hell freezing over was natural, and others will complain that we caused it with C02 emissions. The argument will continue until the last breath is taken, by the last person.

Fitz, i will readily admit to not taking the time to read this or any of your long winded, self satisfied paeans to diarrhea of the mouth. Whatthefuck does that have to do with this thread? If i had indicated that i was interested in what you had to say, and then didn't read your long winded, couldasaidthesamein25wordsorlessbutidosolovetotalk exercizes in verbosity, then there might be a similarity and you would not simply be trolling here, but i didn't indicate such, and i really have no interest in your typical sychophantic drivel.

JCloet indicated an interest in suggestions, and i can see from his post that he did in fact take the time to read at least one of them. This is a gesture of good faith on his part as far as i'm concerned, but has very little, if anything to do with you and me, so please take your trolling elsewhere.


Honibaz

Well, if you read it.... you will see its not trolling. I quickly responded to you, and then explained my opinion on the subject. Look at you though, trying to be all mod-like and such...

I do find it comical that you bash the mods for passing judgment too easily, but then call me a troll, without reading the post. Fooking hilarious. Perhaps you should report this post, and suggest I get banned. You may want to read it though... unless of course you only care about posting a few insults and complaints and moving on.....

I doubt you will, so let me summarize what my post was about.... I do not think there is a fundamental problem with permabans. I then go on to explain the reasons why.

Given the title... it seemed pretty damn on topic to me. But if thats trolling, then I guess Im a troll.

I do love that you go off on me for paragraph after paragraph, explaining how I use too many words though. Thanks for the observation.

[TheProwler]

Haha!

Blunt just got burned!

[timmytuttut88]

That is just going to lead to some people questioning every single decision.

Like that doesn't happen now.

[TheProwler]

That is just going to lead to some people questioning every single decision.

Like that doesn't happen now.

Yeah, at least it would eliminate the "Hey where the heck is so-and-so?" and "Oh, why did so-and-so get banned?" and "How long is so-and-so banned?" questions.

That should clear up the first 3 or 4 pages of some threads.

[Timminz]

That is just going to lead to some people questioning every single decision.

Like that doesn't happen now.

He's right though. Openness, and accountability make more work for those in charge. They also let the general populace know that they are acting in a responsible, and just manner.