Monsters! - Battle for the Powerstones

[Dako]

I like the idea of spells as killer neutrals. Maybe you will want to change LB spell to 2 neutral, instead of 3. That will make it easier to use the spell.

Also, I like the idea of having your wizard for more than just +1 autodeploy. It will mean that you might want to get it back if someone takes it away (should be easy cause shield will be down to 1 as well).

And I like additional icons of spell attacks.

[natty dread]

Hmm. How about tying the powerstone bonus to the wizard? Keep the autodeploy on the wizards, but replace the "+3 for each powerstone" with "+3 for each pair of powerstone & wizard".

Currently the wizards are of little use. Making the powerstone bonus dependant on wizards would be realistic (you can't use a powerstone unless you're a wizard) and also it would serve to make the wizards more relevant to the gameplay.

[dolomite13]

Hmm. How about tying the powerstone bonus to the wizard? Keep the autodeploy on the wizards, but replace the "+3 for each powerstone" with "+3 for each pair of powerstone & wizard".

Currently the wizards are of little use. Making the powerstone bonus dependant on wizards would be realistic (you can't use a powerstone unless you're a wizard) and also it would serve to make the wizards more relevant to the gameplay.

Hmm... would you need any 1 wizard to get the full bonus form any powerstone? That way we would say +3 for a powerstone and any wizard so 3 powerstones and 1 wizard is still +9?

I will be on vacation till late sunday after that I plan to look at all of the revisions and ideas one more time before deciding if the map is good as it is or if we need to make any changes.

D

[natty dread]

Hmm... would you need any 1 wizard to get the full bonus form any powerstone? That way we would say +3 for a powerstone and any wizard so 3 powerstones and 1 wizard is still +9?

Well, I was thinking that you would need as many wizards as powerstones... but then again perhaps your idea is better.

[dolomite13]

So here are the changes that I like for he map. They focus on making lightening bolts easier to use. And focus on making wizards more important.

- Powerstones now require you to hold at least one wizard for the +3 bonus.
- Runebound monsters now require you to hold the corresponding wizard to get the +2 bonus.
- Lightening bolt looses 2 per turn instead of resetting to 3.
- Lightening icons have been added to identify what lighting bolt can bombard.

XML to be updated soon provided the foundry folks think these changes are OK.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4032/464 ... 590a_o.png



http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4072/464 ... d9aa_o.png

[bigimg]http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4072/4641297576_7946f6d9aa_o.png[/bigimg]

=D=

[natty dread]

I like all the changes.

[TheForgivenOne]

Just a thing i noticed. According to your map, the spells and shield reset every turn. But in your first post it says they only reset when controlled. Which is correct?

[alster]

Just a thing i noticed. According to your map, the spells and shield reset every turn. But in your first post it says they only reset when controlled. Which is correct?

The latter. Same as arm's race (warhead).

[natty dread]

There's only one way killer neutrals can be made to reset, and that is at the beginning of the turn of the player who holds it. Any map that has killer neutrals will have them resetting the same way.

In theory, if a killer neutral would change owner every turn - so that it would be in someone else's possession in the beginning of each player's turn - it would never reset.

[dolomite13]

Just a thing i noticed. According to your map, the spells and shield reset every turn. But in your first post it says they only reset when controlled. Which is correct?

The latter. Same as arm's race (warhead).

Correct

[dolomite13]

I almost forgot I think I want to lower runebound monsters to 5 neutral start. I put them at 6 because they were accessible via the powerstones however i don't think 6 really stops you once you have the ability to grab a powerstone. All it does is slow the growth of a wizard by a little bit. Any thoughts on lowering this to 5?

=D=

[natty dread]

I would either lower the monsters or increase the starting troops on the wizards. Currently you can get a huge lead in the beginning if you get good dice...

[Dako]

So here are the changes that I like for he map. They focus on making lightening bolts easier to use. And focus on making wizards more important.

- Powerstones now require you to hold at least one wizard for the +3 bonus.
- Runebound monsters now require you to hold the corresponding wizard to get the +2 bonus.
- Lightening bolt looses 2 per turn instead of resetting to 3.
- Lightening icons have been added to identify what lighting bolt can bombard.

1. Agree, good improvement
2. Well, it kind of works but now we are facing the problem of 8-neutral shield. Maybe lower it to 6? Because this way the game will progress really slow cause killing and taking wizard is hard. You will not eliminate a player anyway (scattered normal monsters) but the profit of having another wizard is ... +1 and +2 to kill 8 neutral? Not really cool.
3. Ok, but I prefer -1. People don't use it often anyway
4. Awesome!

[HighlanderAttack]

I like it just the way it is

[natty dread]

Don't touch the shield neutrals, it's the best feature!

[Dako]

Don't touch the shield neutrals, it's the best feature!

The best, but don't you think it is too hard to break? I mean 6 would be nicer than 8. And since we will be taken other monsters bonus - it will be even more harder to take them (with no particular point).

[natty dread]

Don't touch the shield neutrals, it's the best feature!

The best, but don't you think it is too hard to break? I mean 6 would be nicer than 8. And since we will be taken other monsters bonus - it will be even more harder to take them (with no particular point).

Not at all. I might be a bit biased towards escalating games, but I feel this 8 neutral shield is a great feature especially in escalating games. Where you have to plan your kills more carefully and take the extra 8 in consideration when planning the kill. If it was only 6 it would be less of a factor...

As for other game types (no spoils):
You will still get the bonus from powerstones, so when you manage to take your enemy's powerstone, your own powerstone, and your own wizard/runemonster pair, you'll get at least 11 troop bonus - this will be very much sufficient to break that neutral 8. And later in the game when you have more stones and wizard/monster pairs it will be even easier.

[Dako]

You don't take in account that outher players might also have monster/wizard pairs and they will help him to retake. For now taking monster means you get a bonus as well as break opponents. Now you just break his bonus and it will take the game longer to finish.

Escalating games ... 6 and 8 is the same for the planning most of the time (you can't kill anyone with low sets on monsters map anyway).

[natty dread]

Let's let the mapmaker decide.

[dolomite13]

My goal isn't to make the game take much longer but to try and mitigate the effect of a loosing dice early in the game. Right now it feels impossible to come back from a bad dice early in the game. And to be honest a game that lasts an extra turn or two and gives me the ability to come back from bad dice seems preferable.

By making the runebound monsters not worth anything without the corresponding wizard it makes taking powerstones more important and makes denying them more important to players. runebound monsters only become important in conjunction with their wizard and as a connection point. This way your not rewarded just for holding a connection point.

=D=

[MrBenn]

My goal isn't to make the game take much longer but to try and mitigate the effect of a loosing dice early in the game. Right now it feels impossible to come back from a bad dice early in the game. And to be honest a game that lasts an extra turn or two and gives me the ability to come back from bad dice seems preferable.

By making the runebound monsters not worth anything without the corresponding wizard it makes taking powerstones more important and makes denying them more important to players. runebound monsters only become important in conjunction with their wizard and as a connection point. This way your not rewarded just for holding a connection point.

=D=

I'll admit to not having had a chance to try this map out yet; but trust the judgement of those discussion the relative merits of change...

When you've made a firm decision about what you want to change, please could you post updated links with a brief summary of any differences

Cheers.

[dolomite13]

OK I have made a decision on what I think needs changed to make the map ready for quenching.

The following changes should make it slightly easier to expand out from the wizard, make powerstones slightly harder to take, make using lightening bolts more attractive, and make wizards slightly more important to conquer. And of course the graphic changes should make the map easier to undertsand.

- Powerstones are +3 for each powerstone. They now require you to hold at least one wizard for the +3 bonus.
- Runebound monsters are +2 each. They now require you to hold their corresponding wizard to get the +2 bonus.
- Lightening bolt resets to 3 neutral every turn. They now loose 2 per turn instead.
- Runebound monsters start with 6 neutral. They now start with 5 neutral.
- Powerstones start with 5 neutral. They now start with 6 neutral.

- Unit circles are now more opaque to allow units to more easily be seen on the map.
- Lightening icons have been added to identify what lighting bolt can bombard.
- Other icons have been added to the key to clarify assault/bombard routes.

XML will be updated if the proposed changes are approved.

Starting Forces

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4002/466 ... 767901.jpg



SMALL

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4032/464 ... 590a_o.png



LARGE

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4072/464 ... d9aa_o.png

[bigimg]http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4072/4641297576_7946f6d9aa_o.png[/bigimg]

[natty dread]

Go ahead. I think those changes are good.

[dolomite13]

Go ahead. I think those changes are good.

Working on the XML now ... I am tweaking all of the unit positions and it is taking some time =)

=D=

[dolomite13]

Here is the new XML and links to the map images for checking purposes. It has been submitted to the xml check thread and I will post here when it passes.

=D=

Map Maker - http://www.conquerclub.com/mapmaker/index.php
XML - http://www.bigottergames.com/downloads/monsters14.xml (v0_13_21 )
Small - http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4032/464 ... 590a_o.png (v0_13_21)
Large - http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4072/464 ... d9aa_o.png (v0_13_21)