Conquer Club

I agree with Chuuuuck.

Those that have been paying attention put you much higher, where you should be

I'd probably put you anywhere from 17 to 20.

considering TFFS beat Grim Reapers 28-12 but are ranked below them it proves that not all clans are ranked as they should be.

Sniper08 wrote:considering TFFS beat Grim Reapers 28-12 but are ranked below them it proves that not all clans are ranked as they should be.

Very important to remember what you are looking at when you look at this ranking. You are NOT looking at an exact ranking based off wins and losses. You are looking at a collection of everyone's perceptions of how good they feel each clan is. In that regard, I feel these rankings are exactly right.

If a clan has wins or losses that help them but aren't showing in these rankings, then it likely means they are perceived worse for various reasons. One of the main reasons I can see this happening is they are too quiet in the forums and people just don't simply notice all of those battles.

Chuuuuck wrote:

Sniper08 wrote:considering TFFS beat Grim Reapers 28-12 but are ranked below them it proves that not all clans are ranked as they should be.

Very important to remember what you are looking at when you look at this ranking. You are NOT looking at an exact ranking based off wins and losses. You are looking at a collection of everyone's perceptions of how good they feel each clan is. In that regard, I feel these rankings are exactly right.

yea i know that, all i was saying is TFFS is an underated clan as well as some others ,clearly not every clan took into account results when doing their rankings but rather forum presence.although on a whole i think the rankings are fairly accurate for the top 20 but the lower 20 arent that accurate

Chuuuuck wrote:

Sniper08 wrote:considering TFFS beat Grim Reapers 28-12 but are ranked below them it proves that not all clans are ranked as they should be.

If a clan has wins or losses that help them but aren't showing in these rankings, then it likely means they are perceived worse for various reasons. One of the main reasons I can see this happening is they are too quiet in the forums and people just don't simply notice all of those battles.

You've outlined the biggest problem there with the power rankings. The ranking system should not be about how good you are at 'trash talk' or how often you post in the forum or how many friends you have in other clans. It should not be about mutually slapping each other backs, this is why I prefer jp's system in general because it is actually based on math rather than just what a bunch of people think, normally whose views are a little outdated or haven't bothered to actually do any research e.g. in regards to the argument on Imperial Dragoons. THOTA are another example, Blitz continually has called his clan the best clan on the site so of course they are going out on top, but have they really had the best record in 2010? The fact of their poor performance in CL2 and not even enterring CL3, suggests otherwise - other clans have had a much better record such as TOFU, (bar the KORT fiasco are pretty much undefeated), they have definitely played a hell of a lot more games than THOTA this year but they don't go around the forum constantly boasting about their successes in the same way.

Perception and power rankings seems to be all about 'brand name' with clans that have been around for a long time, e.g. G1, AOD, BSS scoring higher than clans which actually on paper could now be considered a more dangerous opponent such as OSA or the Devil's Brigade who put in a strong performance in the last clan league (beating both AoD in it and in a clan war this year). With 3 last wins in their 3 clan wars they surely deserved a higher rank it will be interesting to watch their war against nemesis but because they don't necessarily have someone posting constantly in the forum shouting their clan out in every thread then they have not been perceived very high which is unfair.
Anyway rant over.

Fiasko vs KORT? Technically, we have won 32-28 by games, but due to penalty it became 20-40 :D.

Dako wrote:Fiasko vs KORT? Technically, we have won 32-28 by games, but due to penalty it became 20-40 .

I think that's what he meant. That it was a fiasco as regards its handling and outcome.

And I think you're doing most clan leaders a disservice with that assessment, nagerous. We had a discussion about THOTA vs TOFU in our clan and the ultimate assessment boiled down to the fact that no one has been able to beat THOTA in a full challenge, ever. Not LOW when they were clearly #2, not TSM when they were clearly #2. Can KORT do it now? To quote one of the posts in our forum "To be the champ you have to beat the champ." I suspect a lot of clans went through the same conversation with similar results, given the low deviation for both THOTA and TOFU.

Now as you get below #15, you may have a point that perception lags reality regarding clan strength. I find the rankings Chuuuuck produces more believable than any of the other ladders (in terms of clan strength, not record) I've seen. For Americans, Chuck's rankings are more like the BCS poll than anything else - part preseason bias (you have to start high) and part your more recent results.

danryan wrote:

Dako wrote:Fiasko vs KORT? Technically, we have won 32-28 by games, but due to penalty it became 20-40 .

I think that's what he meant. That it was a fiasco as regards its handling and outcome.

And I think you're doing most clan leaders a disservice with that assessment, nagerous. We had a discussion about THOTA vs TOFU in our clan and the ultimate assessment boiled down to the fact that no one has been able to beat THOTA in a full challenge, ever. Not LOW when they were clearly #2, not TSM when they were clearly #2. Can KORT do it now? To quote one of the posts in our forum "To be the champ you have to beat the champ." I suspect a lot of clans went through the same conversation with similar results, given the low deviation for both THOTA and TOFU.

Now as you get below #15, you may have a point that perception lags reality regarding clan strength. I find the rankings Chuuuuck produces more believable than any of the other ladders (in terms of clan strength, not record) I've seen. For Americans, Chuck's rankings are more like the BCS poll than anything else - part preseason bias (you have to start high) and part your more recent results.

You are correct in what I meant... and I didn't mean to give any clan leaders a disservice, ultimately I know that I'm sure a lot of individuals probably did put a lot of time and effort in handing out their power rankings - reviewing the ranking of their members, reviewing the ranking of their members in team-games, analysing their previous and ongoing wars and whatnot with particular reference to those clan wars that are most recent, what members have left and defected to other clans and whatnot. I spent a good hour looking at the clans entering the newcomer's cup to give in seedings and that was only for 8 or so brand new clans. I therefore know that when taken seriously, which I am sure the majority of the clan leaders did that this can give a good illustration of who's top and who's not top. I didn't mean to put THOTA down either, I just believe that TOFU and maybe KORT are better clans in this current moment in time and I was disappointed to see much substantive change between july and february. The line is about to be better than the champ you have to beat the champ is a good analogy but did THOTA really best many of it's highest rivals since the posting of the previous power rankings is the point I'm trying to make out. I believe TOFU would have loved to have challenged them but did not get the opportunity because THOTA were too tired from the long war against TSM, being too tired to face TOFU who would've been raring and ready to go does not sound like the actions of a champion surely? Also, were they not beaten in the CL2? Just a few minor points and I really don't mean to give a disservice to THOTA who have reigned at the top for a long time but I don't think they should hold that position just because they have such strict rigid controls on who and when they play.. we'll see how the KORT challenge pans out. That is just the debate for the top of the league, but still it applies to other clans like Imperial Dragoons who are a lot weaker compared to what they used to be, when they had killmanic etc. and with 2 losses recently as Leehar pointed out their position seems rather unmerited compared to clans like The Legion and Mythology who have had much more successful years.

The power rankings is a good concept all the same and it is nice that we have it as well as the ladder and Blitz's perception thread and I commend chuuuck's hard work in running it!

in as far as the top two rankings are concerned, i think there's a pretty valid argument for either THOTA or TOFU to top the list. right now that number 1 spot is dependent almost entirely on our winning of the CCup, with TOFU having come back from a 1st round deficit to (technically not) defeat KORT by a small margin. assuming we (THOTA) can't manage a similar scenario, i think you'd find it reflected in the rankings, and TOFU coming out on top. it's just a matter of timing and circumstance, but that's the way the cookie's crumbled for now.

I have always felt that ranking systems like Chuuucks are good for the top 10-12 clans, but beyond that they are slightly inaccurate. Its really hard to rank clans that have never played each other, never had common opponents and have only been around 6 months to a year. For clans past 12th a numeric based system (leap ladder or something similar) is the best way to go.

I agree with Nag we are probably hurt in this ranking by our lack of forum presence. Our entire clan has 2000 posts and 1600 of those are between Marshal and me. But when you have a voting process there is always going to be a popularity aspect to it. My competitive side would like to ranked higher, but I think we are with 2-3 spots of where we belong.

Our current challenges with Nemesis will be a good test for us and then we have BPB in the first round of the Cup.

Thanks to Chuuuck and crew for putting in the work to give us all something to talk about.

nagerous wrote:

Chuuuuck wrote:

Sniper08 wrote:considering TFFS beat Grim Reapers 28-12 but are ranked below them it proves that not all clans are ranked as they should be.

If a clan has wins or losses that help them but aren't showing in these rankings, then it likely means they are perceived worse for various reasons. One of the main reasons I can see this happening is they are too quiet in the forums and people just don't simply notice all of those battles.

You've outlined the biggest problem there with the power rankings. The ranking system should not be about how good you are at 'trash talk' or how often you post in the forum or how many friends you have in other clans. It should not be about mutually slapping each other backs, this is why I prefer jp's system in general because it is actually based on math rather than just what a bunch of people think, normally whose views are a little outdated or haven't bothered to actually do any research e.g. in regards to the argument on Imperial Dragoons. THOTA are another example, Blitz continually has called his clan the best clan on the site so of course they are going out on top, but have they really had the best record in 2010? The fact of their poor performance in CL2 and not even enterring CL3, suggests otherwise - other clans have had a much better record such as TOFU, (bar the KORT fiasco are pretty much undefeated), they have definitely played a hell of a lot more games than THOTA this year but they don't go around the forum constantly boasting about their successes in the same way.

Perception and power rankings seems to be all about 'brand name' with clans that have been around for a long time, e.g. G1, AOD, BSS scoring higher than clans which actually on paper could now be considered a more dangerous opponent such as OSA or the Devil's Brigade who put in a strong performance in the last clan league (beating both AoD in it and in a clan war this year). With 3 last wins in their 3 clan wars they surely deserved a higher rank it will be interesting to watch their war against nemesis but because they don't necessarily have someone posting constantly in the forum shouting their clan out in every thread then they have not been perceived very high which is unfair.
Anyway rant over.

Does it really matter that the numbers say you are better than clan A but everyone believes clan A is better than you? Numbers have never and probably will never provide a result as close to the actual rankings as chucks power rankings.

For TOFU/THOTA i think we can all agree that it will be close and that until THOTA is beat they are number 1 (provided they don't stop playing challenges).

So what happens if THOTA loses to KORT?

Then TOFU goes to #1, KORT #2, THOTA #3.

jakewilliams wrote:Then TOFU goes to #1, KORT #2, THOTA #3.

to be #1 you need to at least beat some top clans. your the greatest win was vs #8 clan (I know you will say also vs #3), but are beating #8 and #3 enough to become #1? also, on the time when you played vs KORT and AoC, they were ranked #6 and #16.

from the other side, THOTA beat #2 seed 3 or 4 times, and then you think that you will overcome them if they loose once in 5 years vs #3 seed? lol

It is not about who beated what, but about the perception. TSM ranked #4 and they haven't beaten anyone in 2010 in a challenge.

jakewilliams wrote:Then TOFU goes to #1, KORT #2, THOTA #3.

That's what I would vote, if KORT beat THOTA for the CC.

Dako wrote:It is not about who beated what, but about the perception. TSM ranked #4 and they haven't beaten anyone in 2010 in a challenge.

It's clearly not about grammar either, eh Dako?

Reckon your Russian is better than his english??

danryan wrote:Reckon your Russian is better than his english??

Yes.

josko.ri wrote:

jakewilliams wrote:Then TOFU goes to #1, KORT #2, THOTA #3.

to be #1 you need to at least beat some top clans. your the greatest win was vs #8 clan (I know you will say also vs #3), but are beating #8 and #3 enough to become #1? also, on the time when you played vs KORT and AoC, they were ranked #6 and #16.

from the other side, THOTA beat #2 seed 3 or 4 times, and then you think that you will overcome them if they loose once in 5 years vs #3 seed? lol

I totally agree with Josko on this one

skillfull wrote:

josko.ri wrote:

jakewilliams wrote:Then TOFU goes to #1, KORT #2, THOTA #3.

to be #1 you need to at least beat some top clans. your the greatest win was vs #8 clan (I know you will say also vs #3), but are beating #8 and #3 enough to become #1? also, on the time when you played vs KORT and AoC, they were ranked #6 and #16.

from the other side, THOTA beat #2 seed 3 or 4 times, and then you think that you will overcome them if they loose once in 5 years vs #3 seed? lol

I totally agree with Josko on this one

Idk, I tend to go with Dako, If it's a matter of perception, and B beats C (at least on face value), but C goes on to beat A, therefore, B is better than A and C according to my perception

I agree with dako, it's about right now. skill, how pissed would you be if you guys had beaten THOTA but still been considered #2?

jrh_cardinal wrote:I agree with dako, it's about right now. skill, how pissed would you be if you guys had beaten THOTA but still been considered #2?

awful! hehe, but who have beaten thota so far( in a clan war??)....got my point?

Leehar wrote:

skillfull wrote:

josko.ri wrote:

jakewilliams wrote:Then TOFU goes to #1, KORT #2, THOTA #3.

to be #1 you need to at least beat some top clans. your the greatest win was vs #8 clan (I know you will say also vs #3), but are beating #8 and #3 enough to become #1? also, on the time when you played vs KORT and AoC, they were ranked #6 and #16.

from the other side, THOTA beat #2 seed 3 or 4 times, and then you think that you will overcome them if they loose once in 5 years vs #3 seed? lol

I totally agree with Josko on this one

Idk, I tend to go with Dako, If it's a matter of perception, and B beats C (at least on face value), but C goes on to beat A, therefore, B is better than A and C according to my perception