Conquer Club

Players who are voting MM, please elaborate on your reasoning.
Only posting flavor isn't ideal, but how does it rate as being the scummiest?
I presume it's being interpreted as scumarining, and maybe it is... but not necessarily.
Maybe players with more past experience with MM are seeing something I'm not.

I will go so far to say that if there must be a blind/semi-blind lynch, it is best to choose a player that is showing minimal participation.

Thorthoth wrote:Players who are voting MM, please elaborate on your reasoning.
Only posting flavor isn't ideal, but how does it rate as being the scummiest?
I presume it's being interpreted as scumarining, and maybe it is... but not necessarily.
Maybe players with more past experience with MM are seeing something I'm not.

I will go so far to say that if there must be a blind/semi-blind lynch, it is best to choose a player that is showing minimal participation.

Posting only flavor without scum hunting is considered scummy because scum can do it to post and seem to be active, but not actually contribute anything meaningful, or take positions on any players. So it's pretending to be active while actually scumarining.

Ragian wrote:
@MM, I don't get your "four votes" bit. Only two are voting you, and I never said (intentionally anyway) that you are one vote away from claiming. Whichever way you twist and turn it, four votes makes no sense.

I thought I was on 3 votes when Flores also voted me. And I didn't see her Unvote either so not entirely sure why her voted wasn't counted tbh.

Ragian wrote:@BuJ, I don't find DDS scummy. I find MM scummy. He doesn't say anything about anyone. He's just talking flavour and hiding behind "I'm bad at D1". Who isn't? Except for dakky shooting scummy me in Lion King If you switch to MM, maybe we'll draw others out too. If you want to stick with DDS, then stick with him. I don't see him being forced to claim D1 as it is.

I'm just going to throw this out there to every other player here, but posts like this (and the last page in general really) are really starting to look like a targeted attack rather than a genuine attempt to pressure a player. Especially as Ragian is just trying to draft active voters into the bandwagon, rather than actually thinking up another reason besides my apparent lack of beneficial posts to question me on.

You say I've not been scumhunting. How do you know this itself isn't, eh?

Thorthoth wrote:Attention Everybody: Answer the following question.
Are you Vanilla Town or are you some other role?
NOTE: If you refuse to answer this question you will be assumed to be Vanilla Town, until 'proven' otherwise (though some players might still try to lynch you anyway).

I'm not sure if you realize how dumb what you're asking is (regardless if you're town or scum), if you're a jester, a power role that wants to make extra sure he's not gonna get NKed by mafia (plot twist <--- and because it seems I need to clarify everything, no I did not skimmed over his post, and I know he claimed VT, but maybe (it's a one in a million kind of maybe) it's an elaborate plan of his. Not that he had much chance of getting NKed with the day he had), or you're just trying to look dumb for whatever reason. I'm leaning for the 1st option, and the 3rd and 4th are very unlikely
But since it looks like you need to be spoonfed, here's why a mass claim at this point would be bad:
1- Scum would know who to target because some number/all of the "useless" (as in with no power roles) targets would have claimed
2- Town (likely) doesn't have many more clues as to who is scum, as they (scum) would have fake claims. Let me remind you the rules

18. Be wary of mass claims, mechanisms have been put in place to prevent this.

3- Knowing the role someone claimed doesn't make him more or less scummy. Unless he gets busted in his claim. And the claim you propose doesn't even allow for busting people because they're just saying whether they have powers or not, whithout claiming an actual role if they have powers (not that it would be a good idea either way)
4- Probably a million other reason I forgot or didn't think of.
So I guess it is best we all stay vanilla townies for now. And don't go complaining about people calling you noobie with shit like that.

HotShot53 wrote:Asking a brand new player "what about your role?", knowing there is a good chance they could actually respond to it with their role seems extremely suspicious to me. I know when called on it you subsequently said you were just asking if he was two characters or not... but if you were, then you wouldn't have asked about the role, you would have just asked about 2 characters or not. This is the most suspicious thing I've seen so far on day 1, so I will vote ZaBeast

ZaBeast wrote: ZaBeast wrote:
Hi KJ and welcome to the game.
I understand you just joined, but could you give us a little more to work on? You couldn't find any scum tells (and that's ok, there's not that much to work on D1), but do you have any particular opinions about the setup? And what about your role? Pika wanted to know if anybody was playing more than one character. He said he had information he would share if no one was.

I can see the potential for misunderstanding with the phrasing I used, but I really meant the last part to be read as a whole. The "what about your role" question being more of a transition marker for changing the subject to talking about his role. I should have dropped it altogether, since it doesn't add anything, but again, I meant it as a "let's talk about your role" statement, or better yet, a "I have a question about your role" statement, since "let's talk about your role" still looks like role fishing phrased this way.
Now, since the deadline is approaching, I'd like Pika to reveal the important info he wanted to tell us, since it's unlikely anybody is gonna come forward as playing two dwarves (and I don't think anybody is). And also (and this is not an argument, but I am sure I am in the same boat as many others), I am curious about what it is.

HotShot53 wrote:MM would be my second choice, for posting flavor only but no game content. I think ZaBeast's role fishing of a newbie is a bigger scum sign for day 1, but will switch to MM if needed to get the game going so we don't end day 1 with no info at all

Given that I have been advocating for a MM lynch for some time now, and that I am the player you think the most likely to be scum (since you're voting for me), I find it weird that you would switch to MM "if needed". Let's pretend I am scum. Do you really think a scum 1st pick is likely to be scum? If I am scum, chances are MM isn't, because if she was, I would probably not be voting for her anymore (and I know I said I considered switching to you, but the point is, I didn't yet. And now that I can't back down, I won't). It looks like you're looking to get more reasons to lynch me later on if you can't now. Now, I don't claim to know whether MM is town, but let's say she is and Hotshot is scum (and therefore knows it). Wouldn't it make perfect sense to switch to MM if he can't get enough votes to lynch me so he gets more arguments against me later on?
Now, maybe he wants to see MM's role to have a better idea whether I'm scum or town, but the point is, since I'm his primary target, MM should be more likely to be town than others, in his mind (again, considering he thinks I am scum or likely to be), so that seems scummy.
So now, I'll unFOS thor (but I still got my eye on him, partly because he's mildly entertaining with all the dumb things he says) and FOS Hotshot (because of the submarining and the maybe switching to MM bit) Call it OMGUS all you want, I would still do it if he was voting someone else and considering switching to that person's first scum pick.

Thorthoth wrote:Players who are voting MM, please elaborate on your reasoning.
Only posting flavor isn't ideal, but how does it rate as being the scummiest?
I presume it's being interpreted as scumarining, and maybe it is... but not necessarily.
Maybe players with more past experience with MM are seeing something I'm not.

I will go so far to say that if there must be a blind/semi-blind lynch, it is best to choose a player that is showing minimal participation.

Does the second part of this post not answer the questions you posed in the first part?

Skoffin wrote: Where is our vote count? This is why I am the bestest vote counter ever. No one vote counts like I do.

Alright, Gaston.

Regardless:

Thorthoth wrote:btw, are you shocked because you believe my claim, or because you don't believe my claim? I'm standing by it, but how can I prove it? Maybe there is a way...

This line in particular shows to me that you knew exactly why a mass vanilla-town claim would be a bad thing for town, once you claim vanilla town you're effectively saying "I'm one of the [lesser(?)] Dwarves", the natural response to this is "Which Dwarf?", to which a true vanilla townie can easily answer truthfully, but a town power role cannot. Either the town power role declines to answer, leaving them a probable lynch target and potentially still a target for scum (provided they have no better town power role to target that night), or they must then claim their actual role, given the number of characters this would most likely be Bilbo or Gandalf, two of the surely most important town roles in this game. This would be bad.

In fact there was a game not too long ago (featuring many of the same players, which thankfully said players appear to have learnt from) where a slight variation of this specific situation occurred and, even after having lost half their team before the first night began, the mafia team were still able to win, in part because of this.

So now I'm left with a dilemma; to say the above-quoted line as a town power role makes no sense: either you encourage pressure to reveal your true role which is bad for town, or it changes nothing. There is no beneficial outcome. Likewise, to say it as scum either: risks an increased pressure to reveal your role, changes nothing, or perhaps merely the action of one who feels forced to fully commit to the hole they've dug themselves into. Whereas to say it as vanilla town is certainly self-interested, but not entirely illogical from the perspective of self-preservation as with the other two possibilities.
If I eliminate the absolute blunders as options then I have to believe Thorthoth is either scum who felt they had to commit to the hole they dug themselves or vanilla town acting selfishly. The former would mean I should wish for Thorthoth to claim their role, calling their bluff, the latter would mean I should unvote and hope they remain silent on their role (as it gives scum a harder time should they need to guess a fake-claim).

What do the rest of you think about this?
(Also Thorthoth if you are a vanilla townie please do not claim unless pressured, and properly so, like 5+ votes sort of pressured...)

While I'm not terribly opposed to pressure on Minister Masket, he's not my 1st choice. Yes, he's posting without making any real cases and claims it's because he's just not getting a good read. While I want the guy to try and make cases, I'm not so sure his choice to not do so is a scum tell... Just like while I want the no-lynchers to vote for a player, I'm pretty sure they're not all scum. If Masket is scum, he's had the opportunity to just make some stuff up or jump on someone else's case to deflect the case against him... and doing so likely would not have raised a big flag that he was doing it just because of the pressure on him... which makes me think he may just be speaking honestly.

I'm most willing to eventually vote HotShot later today. While his excuse for not posting is reasonable and removes some doubt that he may be scum, it does nothing to make him seem more town. He was my #1 scum read even before BuJaber first mentioned his scumarining meta. HotShot's excuse does make him significantly less of a scum read but he's still at the top of my list of players I'd like to see commit to a claim early on to see if it holds water as we progress.

In the meantime, I'd like to pressure Thor to make a full claim. I feel fairly certain he is town but since there is still that chance he's scum, I'd like to hear who specifically he is in case a fake claim by Scummy Thor can be challenged. I see little additional risk to town by pressing for a full claim but please correct me if I may not be considering a danger.

Vote Thorthoth

FP'd by ZaBeast & Pika

Thorthoth wrote:Players who are voting MM, please elaborate on your reasoning.
Only posting flavor isn't ideal, but how does it rate as being the scummiest?
I presume it's being interpreted as scumarining, and maybe it is... but not necessarily.
Maybe players with more past experience with MM are seeing something I'm not.

I will go so far to say that if there must be a blind/semi-blind lynch, it is best to choose a player that is showing minimal participation.

MM has been posting mostly unrelevant stuff at the beginning, which is worse than flavor, and not too much afterwards. That is the same as not contributing, but looking like you are, since you are posting. Now, MM's defense has been weak, and here are the only two arguments I found:
1) Claims to be a bad D1 player
2) Pointing the finger at another player (DDS) instead of actually giving an explanation to his behaviour

Minister Masket wrote:

BuJaber wrote:People have started to sling mud and MM is still talking about flavor. Suspect.

I'm not the only one. In fact it's being talked about again today. Is DDS a suspect now too?

Ack, ninja'd

ZaBeast wrote:Now, since the deadline is approaching, I'd like Pika to reveal the important info he wanted to tell us, since it's unlikely anybody is gonna come forward as playing two dwarves (and I don't think anybody is). And also (and this is not an argument, but I am sure I am in the same boat as many others), I am curious about what it is.

Certain events have made this information far riskier to reveal in the manner I had originally intended (I actually began writing a post around when I asked the initial question), I am currently considering other ways of revealing most or all of it without said risk.

SO MANY POSTS ;_;
GO TO BED OR SOMETHING PEOPLE

@ZaBeast:
I already explained that my question was intended to rhetorically demonstrate that 'Vanilla Town' is the implied claim of all players until proven otherwise. I'll admit it would have been interesting if some players had responded with claims of any sort, but it would hardly have derailed the game because obviously nobody would know if they were telling the truth or not, duh.

@ everybody, especially experienced players:
So what game mechanics would allow Pika to have such important information on Day 1 of the game? His claim seems to imply that he has some sort of power role... or maybe not. Can anybody deduce any likely possibilities...

And yes, obviously I am bending over backwards to give PIka the benefit of the doubt that he isn't just trying to pull off an outrageous job of scummery.

Thor... it's D1 so I don't see the purpose of talking about mechanics... I talked about mechanics in previous games but what that brings? Just more of not needed posts with nothing said, just posts to be posted. I mean giving scum a chance to post while saying nothing and in the same time not being inactive.

On the other hand, you did post your thoughts on people, which is encouraging... but your question about VT's looks to me as an attempt (I may be still influenced by Mass Effect mafia) to see who can you recruit and who you can not... (and I'm talking about mechanics, lol yeah.).. So my best guess is you're the 3rd party this game, either a cult leader or a jester or something else.

ZaBeast wrote:

HotShot53 wrote:MM would be my second choice, for posting flavor only but no game content. I think ZaBeast's role fishing of a newbie is a bigger scum sign for day 1, but will switch to MM if needed to get the game going so we don't end day 1 with no info at all

Given that I have been advocating for a MM lynch for some time now, and that I am the player you think the most likely to be scum (since you're voting for me), I find it weird that you would switch to MM "if needed". Let's pretend I am scum. Do you really think a scum 1st pick is likely to be scum? If I am scum, chances are MM isn't, because if she was, I would probably not be voting for her anymore (and I know I said I considered switching to you, but the point is, I didn't yet. And now that I can't back down, I won't). It looks like you're looking to get more reasons to lynch me later on if you can't now. Now, I don't claim to know whether MM is town, but let's say she is and Hotshot is scum (and therefore knows it). Wouldn't it make perfect sense to switch to MM if he can't get enough votes to lynch me so he gets more arguments against me later on?
Now, maybe he wants to see MM's role to have a better idea whether I'm scum or town, but the point is, since I'm his primary target, MM should be more likely to be town than others, in his mind (again, considering he thinks I am scum or likely to be), so that seems scummy.
So now, I'll unFOS thor (but I still got my eye on him, partly because he's mildly entertaining with all the dumb things he says) and FOS Hotshot (because of the submarining and the maybe switching to MM bit) Call it OMGUS all you want, I would still do it if he was voting someone else and considering switching to that person's first scum pick.

If this was day 4 or 5, then yeah, it would be illogical to suspect 2 people who seem to be on different teams... on day 1, no suspicions are very strong, so while I suspect you the most, it's still not a very strong case so there is still a very good chance you are town, in which case MM could be scum.

Well there's also the strategy of pretending you want your scum mate dead.

MM, I was in no small part rattled by the deadline. At this point I'm looking for support to beat the non lynchers y'all are a stubborn lot . Plus plenty of players expressed willingness to vote for Thor which would split the votes. I feel more comfortable lynching DDS over you, maybe hotshot. But between you and no lynch/thor, different story. So it would be interesting if you voted for DDS/HS now.

I asked all players to give me their thoughts on how Pika would have special information on Day 1, as he claims... and what that information might be.
Check out the reply I got from dakky. First he ignores the question, and redirects by saying it has no purpose. ...No purpose?!
Then he tries to punish me for asking, by pulling out a bs idea that I'm a third party cult/jester/whatever.

So is Dakky trying to protect PIka? Is Pika's secret information story just a stupid lie? Can anyone give a rational explanation for PIka having secret information on Day 1?

FOS @ dakky and Pika.

dakky21 wrote:Thor... it's D1 so I don't see the purpose of talking about mechanics... I talked about mechanics in previous games but what that brings? Just more of not needed posts with nothing said, just posts to be posted. I mean giving scum a chance to post while saying nothing and in the same time not being inactive.

On the other hand, you did post your thoughts on people, which is encouraging... but your question about VT's looks to me as an attempt (I may be still influenced by Mass Effect mafia) to see who can you recruit and who you can not... (and I'm talking about mechanics, lol yeah.).. So my best guess is you're the 3rd party this game, either a cult leader or a jester or something else.

Thorthoth wrote:I asked all players to give me their thoughts on how Pika would have special information on Day 1, as he claims... and what that information might be.
Check out the reply I got from dakky. First he ignores the question, and redirects by saying it has no purpose. ...No purpose?!
Then he tries to punish me for asking, by pulling out a bs idea that I'm a third party cult/jester/whatever.

So is Dakky trying to protect PIka? Is Pika's secret information story just a stupid lie? Can anyone give a rational explanation for PIka having secret information on Day 1?

FOS @ dakky and Pika.

I'm suspect now because another player didn't respond to a question you asked about me? -dakky21 wasn't even talking about anything to do with me but rather your weird vanilla town thing in the post which apparently makes you suspicious of me. Should I, in the same vein, be suspicious of HotShot53 and BuJaber for not directly responding to my question about you?

Now another thing to mention is that I have said that this information could potentially be harmful to town under the right circumstances, so what makes you think it's a good idea that everybody begins wildly speculating about it? Every question you've asked recently seems almost deliberately scummy, why are you now suprised of the Jester accusations? For the record I doubt we have a Jester, and am somewhat doubtful we even have any third parties, but that's besides the point.

Pikanchion wrote:Now another thing to mention is that I have said that this information could potentially be harmful to town under the right circumstances, so what makes you think it's a good idea that everybody begins wildly speculating about it? Every question you've asked recently seems almost deliberately scummy, why are you now suprised of the Jester accusations? For the record I doubt we have a Jester, and am somewhat doubtful we even have any third parties, but that's besides the point.

Truth be told, it never made sense to announce that you have information that could help or harm to begin with. It's basically saying "Hey! Kill me first or I'LL WRECK U!". I'm no fan of Thor or how he's been playing this, at all, but come on man, there was no reason for you to reveal or indicate anything, on Days 1.


And why would you be doubtful of having a third party in this? We've somewhat established at this point that Smaug and Gollum would be present in this. Smaug wasn't a friend to anyone, and Gollum only cared about himself and the ring. I would rather not fall into believing that we don't have SOME sort of third party present in a large game like this, when it also can fit thematically.

DirtyDishSoap wrote:Why would you be doubtful of having a third party in this? We've somewhat established at this point that Smaug and Gollum would be present in this. Smaug wasn't a friend to anyone, and Gollum only cared about himself and the ring. I would rather not fall into believing that we don't have SOME sort of third party present in a large game like this, when it also can fit thematically.

Because it doesn't make sense mechanically for the evil and/or non-Company characters of The Hobbit to remain disjointed, there are too few of them, and almost none of them were particularly aligned ever: Gollum is a complete lone party; Tom/Bert/Bill (the Trolls) are a secluded group of three; the Master of Lake Town is purely self-interested; The Elvenking is deliberately isolationist throughout (although if there is a third party this would be the most plausible, but as a certainly non-evil character at least I wouldn't worry too much about them); Smaug is again a lone party; The Great Goblin/Goblin King is merely interested in the company as a mercenary (and a largely disinterested one at that, given the Company had to literally trespass their way into meeting them); the Spiders are barely intelligent and only wish to eat the company (again only after Thorin's Company stumbled through their territory); Beorn (the Skinchanger) is largely neutral, although another plausible third party (under the assumption that one exists anyway); and after all that you're left with two, The Necromancer/Sauron, and Bolg/Azog (depending on whether you go by the book or by the films).

Now unless they're both extremely powerful I see no reason to have a mafia team of only two members, if you want to mix both the films and the book so that you're not really following the events of either all that closely you could maybe have Bolg and Azog both feature, and in that case maybe there's room for either Gollum or Smaug to be a third party with the other being on the mafia side, perhaps even a three player scum team with Gollum and Smaug both independant thrid parties, with Smaug as an SK or something and Gollum... Survivor? Lyncher targetting Bilbo? -Something odd and frankly a little unfair to have to play as in a game with a prize attatched anyway. Realistically though a four player mafia team of The Necromancer, Bolg/Azog, Gollum, and Smaug seems likely to me.

Really though my emphasis was intended to be on their not being a Jester, however with the number of clearly Company sided and conversely anti-Company entities to choose from I see the game as likely viewed from the Company's perspective, a town team of the Company (and allies) against a mafia team of those that oppose them, after all it matters little if your enemies are working together or not; Smaug is just as dangerous to the party whether he explicitly works for the forces of evil or just likes to keep hold of his gold.

Skoffin wrote: I'm convinced that Thor just has a brain tumour and as such it's unfair to pick on him.

I'm on board with your theory that Thor woke up on the wrong side of the potato but no longer feel it's unfair to pick on him after that VT claim. I'm guessing he's a non-power role dwarf... and by outing his powerlessness, he has already helped scum, as they are only concerned that he's VT and couldn't care less about his name. Town, on the other hand, would find his claim useful to help get a better comfort level that he actually is what he claims (based on absence/presence of counter-claim and likelihood that the character he names is in this game).

FP'd by Pika... again.

MudPuppy wrote:I'm on board with your theory that Thor woke up on the wrong side of the potato but no longer feel it's unfair to pick on him after that VT claim. I'm guessing he's a non-power role dwarf... and by outing his powerlessness, he has already helped scum, as they are only concerned that he's VT and couldn't care less about his name. Town, on the other hand, would find his claim useful to help get a better comfort level that he actually is what he claims (based on absence/presence of counter-claim and likelihood that the character he names is in this game).

My fear with this is as I said earlier, we have to think Thorthoth is scum for a claim to be helpful, if you truly believe Thorthoth is actually a VT it's better for them not to do so. I'm currently on the fence about this despite my vote, but currently I'm not sure I have a better candidate to vote for either.

Pikanchion wrote:

MudPuppy wrote:I'm on board with your theory that Thor woke up on the wrong side of the potato but no longer feel it's unfair to pick on him after that VT claim. I'm guessing he's a non-power role dwarf... and by outing his powerlessness, he has already helped scum, as they are only concerned that he's VT and couldn't care less about his name. Town, on the other hand, would find his claim useful to help get a better comfort level that he actually is what he claims (based on absence/presence of counter-claim and likelihood that the character he names is in this game).

My fear with this is as I said earlier, we have to think Thorthoth is scum for a claim to be helpful, if you truly believe Thorthoth is actually a VT it's better for them not to do so. I'm currently on the fence about this despite my vote, but currently I'm not sure I have a better candidate to vote for either.

I'd say we have to only believe there is a possibility Thor is scum for a claim to be helpful. I don't see how it's better for town if a VT Thor doesn't claim since he's already directed scum away from night-killing him and improved their chances of hitting a power role. I do see how it's better for town if a Power-Role Thor doesn't claim but you typically don't want to out any town power role on D1 and since Thor has already declared himself VT, pressuring Thor is a safer bet to avoid that than pressuring anyone else in the game.

Minister Masket wrote:

Ragian wrote:@BuJ, I don't find DDS scummy. I find MM scummy. He doesn't say anything about anyone. He's just talking flavour and hiding behind "I'm bad at D1". Who isn't? Except for dakky shooting scummy me in Lion King If you switch to MM, maybe we'll draw others out too. If you want to stick with DDS, then stick with him. I don't see him being forced to claim D1 as it is.

I'm just going to throw this out there to every other player here, but posts like this (and the last page in general really) are really starting to look like a targeted attack rather than a genuine attempt to pressure a player. Especially as Ragian is just trying to draft active voters into the bandwagon, rather than actually thinking up another reason besides my apparent lack of beneficial posts to question me on.

You say I've not been scumhunting. How do you know this itself isn't, eh?

Well, if doing nothing is your scumhunting because you think that scum will then target you, then I'd just think of your scumhunt as poorly executed. But hey, if my posts and my poking you get you to participate in scumhunting, I don't think I should be at fault for that.

Skoffin wrote:[color=#FF0000]I'm baffled as to why Ragoo seems particularly convinced that his lynch is the right one; no one else here shares his conviction on their suspects and he hasn't given that good an explanation to begin with. If Masket claims Bilbo I'll be pretty convinced that Ragoo is Gollum wanting his ring back.

What do you mean by convinced? It's D1, and I'm going with what I see rather than giving out redundant lists that I don't believe in myself Getting a claim out of someone moves the game forward. I want a claim from the one I find most suspicious.