Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - Endgame

[Mr. Squirrel]

I may or may not have information to share from last night. First though, Vio can you tell me what faction you're a part of (Angels, demons, etc.)?

[vodean]

I'm feeling fine Pancake, but unless someone got information, it's best to leave the mafia in the dark and collect more and more info that we can use against them. Will someone die tonight? Most likely. Will we lose a power role by tomorrow, most definitely. However, we do not need to paint targets for mafia across the map, no, we need to keep them in the dark for now as much as we are and allow those with investigative roles get more information on what's going on.

With a game this size there COULD be up to 8 mafia, that's terrible to just start letting them get in without anyone with actions being able to counter their claims as to what they do.

To be honest, with a game this size and the number of it, I think angels are town, demons are mafia, and the humans are 3rd party. Though unless someone feels like giving us an example/claim I doubt I can really prove humans being in this game.

Have I lost my head? Maybe, but after playing over at Epic Mafia for what seems a longish time lately I have come to the realization that there are other ways to go about doing this. Taking advantage of a night with no kills is one of those advantages. To not take control of that advantage and gather more invaluable intel for the long days to come would be a waste. In fact, it'd be like the town wanted to lose.

We lynch/pressure today we most likely kill/out a town power role, we no lynch today and go into the night all the town pr's are anonymous and can work their magic in the night. Sure lynching is town's most powerful thing, but if we lynch with no real intel we are lynching blindly. To lynch blindly makes it easy for mafia to control votes, to let mafia control votes makes it more likely we lose 2 or more town powers by tomorrow than if we stay silent, leave mafia in the dark, and go into the night.

I dare you, tell me I'm wrong about our chances. If we don't use the valuable extra day of information now we wont regret it later on when we gotta be constantly on edge.

jak has just outed himself. he claims that he is not a human. this means that we can safely pressure himself. i think (and correct me if i am wrong) that the angels are some sort of masonic group, where they can communicate at night, or can at least know who the others are. this means that we can safely pressure jak. if he is an angel, his role is probably important enough that the other angels will find some way to save him. if not, then he will be totally exposed as scum, and we will be able to kill him with no qualms. vote jak.

[LSU Tiger Josh]

I dare you, tell me I'm wrong about our chances. If we don't use the valuable extra day of information now we wont regret it later on when we gotta be constantly on edge.

jak has just outed himself. he claims that he is not a human. this means that we can safely pressure himself. i think (and correct me if i am wrong) that the angels are some sort of masonic group, where they can communicate at night, or can at least know who the others are. this means that we can safely pressure jak. if he is an angel, his role is probably important enough that the other angels will find some way to save him. if not, then he will be totally exposed as scum, and we will be able to kill him with no qualms. vote jak.

Unvote Vote Vodean It is obvious that you aren't an angel and as such it is safe to apply pressure to you.

[Hensow]

I think the flowing should be noted Illade said he was a saint (as am I) so presumably human I think jak is mostlighty an angle as if Vodean was right he would at this point be jumped on by the angles. Also the implist contradiction on Jak's (incorect) asumtion that humans were third party would tend to ipmly that Vodean was a town human

[jgordon1111]

I'm feeling fine Pancake, but unless someone got information, it's best to leave the mafia in the dark and collect more and more info that we can use against them. Will someone die tonight? Most likely. Will we lose a power role by tomorrow, most definitely. However, we do not need to paint targets for mafia across the map, no, we need to keep them in the dark for now as much as we are and allow those with investigative roles get more information on what's going on.

With a game this size there COULD be up to 8 mafia, that's terrible to just start letting them get in without anyone with actions being able to counter their claims as to what they do.

To be honest, with a game this size and the number of it, I think angels are town, demons are mafia, and the humans are 3rd party. Though unless someone feels like giving us an example/claim I doubt I can really prove humans being in this game.

Have I lost my head? Maybe, but after playing over at Epic Mafia for what seems a longish time lately I have come to the realization that there are other ways to go about doing this. Taking advantage of a night with no kills is one of those advantages. To not take control of that advantage and gather more invaluable intel for the long days to come would be a waste. In fact, it'd be like the town wanted to lose.

We lynch/pressure today we most likely kill/out a town power role, we no lynch today and go into the night all the town pr's are anonymous and can work their magic in the night. Sure lynching is town's most powerful thing, but if we lynch with no real intel we are lynching blindly. To lynch blindly makes it easy for mafia to control votes, to let mafia control votes makes it more likely we lose 2 or more town powers by tomorrow than if we stay silent, leave mafia in the dark, and go into the night.

I dare you, tell me I'm wrong about our chances. If we don't use the valuable extra day of information now we wont regret it later on when we gotta be constantly on edge.

jak has just outed himself. he claims that he is not a human. this means that we can safely pressure himself. i think (and correct me if i am wrong) that the angels are some sort of masonic group, where they can communicate at night, or can at least know who the others are. this means that we can safely pressure jak. if he is an angel, his role is probably important enough that the other angels will find some way to save him. if not, then he will be totally exposed as scum, and we will be able to kill him with no qualms. vote jak.

Yep Vodean outed himself as at the minimum third party,maximum mafia. You make assumptions vodean,that clearly show what faction you are not in.

Jak you realize what you are doing usually gets me lynched or in one hell of a fight,but I understand the technique. So I wait,if you slip I will be there.

Now where the Hell is Sully gone to. And VIO squirrel has asked a question of you.

[strike wolf]

Sorry for absence over the weekend. Will try to read up on the thread tonight.

[aage]

I may or may not have information to share from last night. First though, Vio can you tell me what faction you're a part of (Angels, demons, etc.)?

I'm going to wait for Vio. As for Vodean's point, the scene seems to imply that the demons and angels are two seperate groups, but angels sound like they're town aligned and therefore rarely form a night talk team. Your theory reminds me of Briarsburg's Doctor Foundation, where 5 people had all the doc roles and could communicate with each other, but I doubt all angels are doctors.
As for outing angels, I think the angels are the only real threat to the demons as humans can't really do anything against them, story-meta-wise. I've read Faustus last week and it made me think of this game (and I wouldn't be surprised if that role was actually in it) but my point is that it might be that kind of situation. Angels and demons trying to win human souls for their own team. That might be the cultish reference we have been looking at. This is just hypothetical, theorycrafting if you will. Might even mean that no-one has a night kill which could explain why no-one died, but that game mechanic is so far from the standard mafia that I doubt Edoc has included it.
Then again, I might also be an angel (or even a demon) making this stuff up or paraphrasing my role PM, but this is what I think the game looks like. Remember the opening statements, "The players who have done the best will be able to choose their own faction" and "There will be some unique roles in this game, and it is certainly no vanilla". This doesn't prove anything, but I think the key to winning the game is figuring out the mechanics of the factions involved.

[jonty125]

vote vodean Why would the entire town faction be masoned?

Also FOS jak, I still don't see why we should NL.

[jak111]

vote vodean Why would the entire town faction be masoned?

Also FOS jak, I still don't see why we should NL.

Two words: Reaction Test

I get why town would not want a no lynch, but the people who react the strongest when they know they have 1/3 or 1/4 of the control of a lynch is mafia.

But what interests me at this point is Vodean's slip, I'm not sure who he thinks the town is here, but I'm pretty sure there's more angels than demons and humans. As far as I figured out with my wc is that Angels are town, humans are third party, and demons are the threat (the mafia).

Though I think I have some information from last night as to who is what... Victor, make a vote, Iiliad, use both your votes, you'll both retract them once they are tested but for now I want to see who is missing their vote. Iiliad said he is, but Victor is the one who should be missing his, so I want to see if there's someone lying or if there's another person who can affect votes.

Unvote if my vote was still on NL, as for the moment while I'm personally waiting to see that and anyone else's information, I think we need a claim from Vodean going on, for him not being an angel makes him 3rd party or mafia. So Vote Vodean until there's a full claim there about that little story.

[samgrossy]

vote vodean Why would the entire town faction be masoned?

Also FOS jak, I still don't see why we should NL.

Two words: Reaction Test

I am conflicted here. I know that Jak is one of the smarter Mafia players that I have played with. He really understands the game, so there are two possible scenarios.

1) He really was doing a Reaction Test like he said, (but that still doesn't prove town)

OR

2) He screwed up a little, and now needs to backtrack.

Both of these seem plausible to me, but my vote stays where it is until I get some compeling reason to change it.

[aage]

vote vodean Why would the entire town faction be masoned?

Also FOS jak, I still don't see why we should NL.

Two words: Reaction Test

I get why town would not want a no lynch, but the people who react the strongest when they know they have 1/3 or 1/4 of the control of a lynch is mafia.

But what interests me at this point is Vodean's slip, I'm not sure who he thinks the town is here, but I'm pretty sure there's more angels than demons and humans. As far as I figured out with my wc is that Angels are town, humans are third party, and demons are the threat (the mafia).

Though I think I have some information from last night as to who is what... Victor, make a vote, Iiliad, use both your votes, you'll both retract them once they are tested but for now I want to see who is missing their vote. Iiliad said he is, but Victor is the one who should be missing his, so I want to see if there's someone lying or if there's another person who can affect votes.

Unvote if my vote was still on NL, as for the moment while I'm personally waiting to see that and anyone else's information, I think we need a claim from Vodean going on, for him not being an angel makes him 3rd party or mafia. So Vote Vodean until there's a full claim there about that little story.

I still don't understand. You've advocated a no lynch, which we agree upon is against town's interests. Then you explain it was a reaction test and vote the last ones to drop on the bandwagon. Now you say that the mafia will have responded the strongest to your reaction test. Do you consider the people who only slightly motivated their vote on you to have responded strongly?

I also noticed your hint at having a vote stealing ability, and you targeted Victor with it, correct?

[/]

Quote from opening scene, page five

So it began. The old gods were no more, but there were others to take up the fight. The souls of the world were the stakes, so it was fitting that Man and Woman would try to hold the line against the power of Satan. There were yet Angels, and if there were Angels there were Demons. Champions would fight from either side in a mighty struggle, the largest conflict this troubled world had ever know.

I think it's grasping to assume humans are third party, particiularly with illiad and hensow having already claimed human and town.
I would to ask one thing though
@iliad, which "Saint Elisabeth" are you?

[strike wolf]

I'll admit I'm a bit confused about what's going on. Now it also seems we have Mr. Squirrel claiming to have performed some kind of action on Vio and Jak claiming to be some form of vote stealer possibly contradicting Iliad's claim of having his vote stolen. Iliad now seems to be claiming to have had one of his votes stolen but still has the other one? I have never seen a vote stealer work on a double voted but that seems a bit odd to me. Though there's little reason to doubt it with Iliad having proven his ability yesterday.

I do wonder if the lightning strike things is in relation to some kind of lightning rod (probably one that acts more like a magnet. Selects one player and all actions directed at that player hit him instead).

Jak's claim of baiting for reaction. I can actually believe. I seem to recall him using a similar tactic in Psychology mafia when he was town. It's risky but I'm not going to lynch him over it.

I'm still trying to make heads or tails of parts of this angels vs humans in the game argument. I understand some level but I'm a bit confused when it comes to the specifics I'll have to read back through it. It seems someone suggested that Angels aren't town which seems a bit silly for this game and set up. Vodean never said that angels were non-town out loud but may have been possibly suggesting it. As far as town being third party, I think some town probably are but not all of them. I mean at least a portion of the town are saints and it wouldn't surprise me if we had a few prophets in this game.

THat's the sum of my thoughts. Still feel slightly lost in this so I am going to reorient myself with Day 1 and 2 and see if I overlooked something or if anything clicks as I'm rereading.

[safariguy5]

I think jak's little "reaction test" could go both ways. Yes, it did seem like he defended his position a bit too strongly for it simply to be something to draw out mafia, but at the same time, there were at least 2-3 votes that bandwagonned extremely quickly, so it wasn't without its merits. However, to automatically assume that the people who bandwagonned you are mafia is not all that reliable I think jak. Certainly, pick one and call them a bandwagonner, but to make that logical leap has no real basis and is not defensible.

I find it interesting that vodean automatically assumes the angels are a mason group. If we assume that we have some humans that are aligned with angels (saints, etc.) and some humans aligned with demons (ionno...famous bad people?) it stands to reason that power roles would most likely be the angels and demons. Whether he intended to or not, vodean has probably painted a couple of people as angels because they immediately disagreed with his theory and voted him. I don't know if this is intentional or not, but that is definitely not within town's best interest.

vote vodean

[VioIet]

WTF? I know jak is wrong and all that, but the fact that 5 people have already jumped down his throat instantly is kinda telling isn't it? No jak, no lynch is not a good way to go, town needs to use day, creat discussion and force pressure. If we don't we won't have anything to go on in a few days time. Town doesn't win with night actions, it wins with discussion during the day.


But the fact that everyone chose to just vote jak instead of trying to explain that, seems to me like going for the very easy case instead of looking at some last day's cases. FOS latecomers to the developing wagon.

QFT

well i agree that we shouldn't rush a no lynch, but i also think its a bad idea to vote jak at this point, cause his wagon growing to big to fast, but what we need to look into are cases, true jak needs to explain a bit more, but i don't recall there being any other major leads yesterday, i should go back and check though.

+1

I may or may not have information to share from last night. First though, Vio can you tell me what faction you're a part of (Angels, demons, etc.)?

Saint, though I'm not sure why you need to know this. Also, do you really expect that I would've said Demons?

[Mr. Squirrel]

I may or may not have information to share from last night. First though, Vio can you tell me what faction you're a part of (Angels, demons, etc.)?

Saint, though I'm not sure why you need to know this. Also, do you really expect that I would've said Demons?

Hm. Without some more information on the game's setup, its hard for me to evaluate your claim. I have a night action that (among other things) can tell me whether or not I visited an angel at night. I know that you aren't an angel, but what I don't know is if 'saints' are the human faction or if they are grouped among the angels. If the latter is true, then you would be lying (and most likely scum).

It would seem weird to me if they were considered humans (since most of the time people pray to them as envoys on their behalf to god) but I don't know what edocsil did here. If anyone can clarify this for me, I would appreciate it.

[jonty125]

I may or may not have information to share from last night. First though, Vio can you tell me what faction you're a part of (Angels, demons, etc.)?

Saint, though I'm not sure why you need to know this. Also, do you really expect that I would've said Demons?

Hm. Without some more information on the game's setup, its hard for me to evaluate your claim. I have a night action that (among other things) can tell me whether or not I visited an angel at night. I know that you aren't an angel, but what I don't know is if 'saints' are the human faction or if they are grouped among the angels. If the latter is true, then you would be lying (and most likely scum).

It would seem weird to me if they were considered humans (since most of the time people pray to them as envoys on their behalf to god) but I don't know what edocsil did here. If anyone can clarify this for me, I would appreciate it.

So, you're an investigative? Who are you?

[aage]

I may or may not have information to share from last night. First though, Vio can you tell me what faction you're a part of (Angels, demons, etc.)?

Saint, though I'm not sure why you need to know this. Also, do you really expect that I would've said Demons?

Hm. Without some more information on the game's setup, its hard for me to evaluate your claim. I have a night action that (among other things) can tell me whether or not I visited an angel at night. I know that you aren't an angel, but what I don't know is if 'saints' are the human faction or if they are grouped among the angels. If the latter is true, then you would be lying (and most likely scum).

It would seem weird to me if they were considered humans (since most of the time people pray to them as envoys on their behalf to god) but I don't know what edocsil did here. If anyone can clarify this for me, I would appreciate it.

So, you're an investigative? Who are you?

^This. Mr. Squirrel, I take it that you are neither an angel nor a saint?

[VioIet]

Hm. Without some more information on the game's setup, its hard for me to evaluate your claim. I have a night action that (among other things) can tell me whether or not I visited an angel at night. I know that you aren't an angel, but what I don't know is if 'saints' are the human faction or if they are grouped among the angels. If the latter is true, then you would be lying (and most likely scum).

It would seem weird to me if they were considered humans (since most of the time people pray to them as envoys on their behalf to god) but I don't know what edocsil did here. If anyone can clarify this for me, I would appreciate it.

It is to my understanding that Saints can be classified as humans in this game. My character is still alive- meaning I'm not the type of Saint who has already died, and people are praying to him/her.

[Mr. Squirrel]

Hm. Without some more information on the game's setup, its hard for me to evaluate your claim. I have a night action that (among other things) can tell me whether or not I visited an angel at night. I know that you aren't an angel, but what I don't know is if 'saints' are the human faction or if they are grouped among the angels. If the latter is true, then you would be lying (and most likely scum).

It would seem weird to me if they were considered humans (since most of the time people pray to them as envoys on their behalf to god) but I don't know what edocsil did here. If anyone can clarify this for me, I would appreciate it.

It is to my understanding that Saints can be classified as humans in this game. My character is still alive- meaning I'm not the type of Saint who has already died, and people are praying to him/her.

Hmmm... well that still leads to some gray areas. For example, would St. Michael or Gabriel be considered angels or saints? According to the catholic church, they're both. I'm not entirely understanding you, but I feel that clarifying it won't get us any further either, so I'll just let it pass.

[jonty125]

Hm. Without some more information on the game's setup, its hard for me to evaluate your claim. I have a night action that (among other things) can tell me whether or not I visited an angel at night. I know that you aren't an angel, but what I don't know is if 'saints' are the human faction or if they are grouped among the angels. If the latter is true, then you would be lying (and most likely scum).

It would seem weird to me if they were considered humans (since most of the time people pray to them as envoys on their behalf to god) but I don't know what edocsil did here. If anyone can clarify this for me, I would appreciate it.

It is to my understanding that Saints can be classified as humans in this game. My character is still alive- meaning I'm not the type of Saint who has already died, and people are praying to him/her.

I was fairly sure you had to be dead to be a saint?

[jak111]

Wow, with unfolding events I think we've outed Vio and Vodean as non angels. Though I am concerned about Vio's claim, saints and angels are to my understanding similar. Saint Peter, etc.

Although now that I am sort of outed as angel, who is WIlliam of York in religious text? I've heard of him but haven't fully grasped who he is supposed to be. If he is a saint/angel then I think Vio's claim is a lie, because I know I am not a human, so for her to claim a saint and say she's human seems... off.

I still expect a hearing from Vodean, but with Vio's slip it's definitely worth the pressure and Mr.S confirmed her non angel while she claims a saint.

Also, to further disprove Vio's counter deflections to the case growing on her.

http://www.cufblog.org/?p=420

"The word “saint” derives from the Latin “sancta,” which means “holy” one. Thus, by definition all of God’s holy angels are saints. Not all angels are holy, however, as some angels chose to follow Satan instead of God. These bad angels, called demons, seek our ruin, and give us cause to ask for the help of God’s angels in spiritual battle."

So by definition of what this site says, Vio is either a saint who follows Satan and is a demon, or not a saint at all with Mr.S's claim. (2nd paragraph for those looking for it)

Thus, Vio either be mafia or 3rd party at the least if the definition is correct.

Unvote, Vote Violet

(Although, for a side note, I'd rather follow Satan if the religion is all true and stuff 1.) Because he accepts everybody. 2.) Freedom. Just saying )

[samgrossy]

Okay guys, I just got confused and I think we need to be careful here.

Can we sidebar for a second so that we can get terminology down. Please add to my discussion as you see fit. Also please don't read anything this because I am just trying to get a few things straight.

I see only two parties from D1 scene

"There were yet Angels, and if there were Angels there were Demons. Champions would fight from either side in a mighty struggle, the largest conflict this troubled world had ever know. "

We have Angels
We have Demons

And then from the N1/D2 scenes adds a third party

"but with a desperate cry he claimed to be a mere mortal" and
"Demons stabbed at Angels and humans, humans interfered with everyone"

So there are humans too, probably third party, but no verification yet.


Why did I do this? Because when we talk about alignment, we need to say Angel, Demon, or Human. I am not sure that talking about Saint is helping, and in fact is confusing me (and usually if I am confused, others are too). There could be good and bad humans, good or bad saints, etc

Now if you think this is off base, we can discuss it. But not for long, because I just want to make certain Edoc's vocab is consistant with the vocab we are using in the game.

[vodean]

im not sure why people are voting me. no, im not an angel. but i AM town aligned. I think theres room to be both here...
jak is really standing out to me. hes trying really hard to cover his tracks, and seems to be justifying, and overly aggressive. i think we need to get a full claim out of him.

[jgordon1111]

Vodean reread what jak wrote, I think he is making his full claim. Now need to verify it.

As to you vodean,you seem to be now claiming human true? If so by what you say can go a long way in proving or disproving what Vio is claiming. Are you a saint?