[Abandoned] Pirates and Merchants - V9 - Pg 1&13

[skillfusniper33]

what do you guys think if the pirates can no longer attack all coastal regions?
instead they'll only be able to attack ports and coastal treasures. that should make regions easier to hold for merchants.

What if you made the ports a +2 for merchants, since they can't hit the coastal regions, this might help negate a bonus, and help them expand a little quicker to counter the hidden regions that the pirates hit.

I might also change it so that the pirates could hit the treasure or a region connecting to a treasure (coastal only), instead of all the coastal regions. That way they still have that feel of being able to land anywhere but everyone has a better idea of where they can land.

[Swifte]

This map seems like a bad match for round limits... if i join second, I get forced in to being the first to attack the neutrals.. there's no real way to incentivize red to do anything at all. And, well, if you don't try anything, this happens: Game 15126173

[zimmah]

I think we should try different things, but with asymmetrically balanced maps like this, it's important to not make too many changes at once when you try to change for balance.

So, it's better to make small changes and make many of them and hopefully after a few changes it will be much more balanced, instead of making large changes and only making things worse.

A few of the suggestions mentioned earlier seem to be worth giving a shot.

I just hope the site admins give us enough opportunity to tweak the balance before finalizing it, i'd rather have this map in beta for 1 year and have it be almost perfectly balanced by the end of it, than have it out of beta in a month and have it be cursed by eternal imbalance.

[JamesKer1]

This map seems like a bad match for round limits... if i join second, I get forced in to being the first to attack the neutrals.. there's no real way to incentivize red to do anything at all. And, well, if you don't try anything, this happens: Game 15126173

Same here. http://www.conquerclub.com/game.php?game=15120612

I don't mind, of course, but I hate going to round limit.

[Robespierre__]

The river dividing line between Amanab and Telefomin needs to be bolder and more obvious IMHO.

Robes

[Jatekos]

This map seems like a bad match for round limits... if i join second, I get forced in to being the first to attack the neutrals.. there's no real way to incentivize red to do anything at all. And, well, if you don't try anything, this happens: Game 15126173

Based on the few games I played, I also see that this is not good for 1v1s in its present form. Basically, the fact that any territory the first player conquers can be taken over by the 2nd player right after that leaves little room for strategy.

I would suggest the following changes:
- pirate ships should only be able to attack treasures directly
- merchant ships should only be able to attack ports directly
- in 1v1s, make sure that one of the players is merchant while the other is pirate

A more complicated (and probably better) option could be to make the ships attack only nearby provinces, instead of the whole coastline. It would definitely make the strategies more complex, but it may require too many changes for the existing map.

[dragosh]

Sooo....what happens for Nuclear/zombie spoils, if I get a spoil of my enemy's ship?

also yes, pirates should be able to only hit treasures.

[codierose]

great looking map. only problem i have cant make out the whats being said in the legend. will have to wing it for my first games

[codierose]

played a few now don't understand why some ships can attack more regions than others. red beard seems to have big advantage over others.
herr hindenburg takes ages to work out what it needs to get for objective playing it speed was a nightmare and found very hard to achieve compared to others.
dont understand what baron von bucht needs to achieve for objective not very clear im guessing the 4 highlighted regions and 1 province.
jesse the ox objective to take 14 regions that seems a lot compared to the others. if you go up against someone that only needs 7 treasures for example seems a tad unfair.

[sloba147]

what do you guys think if the pirates can no longer attack all coastal regions?
instead they'll only be able to attack ports and coastal treasures. that should make regions easier to hold for merchants.

Maybe if pirates could attack only treasures and merchants could attack only ports

[codierose]

Thought pirates couldn't attack ports as it was and merchants for treasures

[codierose]

Game 15203044
here we go pirate ship could hit any port along with any treasure
i could hit only ports stood not chance whats so ever of winning.

[iAmCaffeine]

Pirates can hit anything with a coastline. Merchants can only hit ports, that's why the map isn't balanced. However, as this is the roughly the third time I've said now that DiM is inactive, it's kind of pointless going on about this.

[hyposquasher]

Pirates can hit anything with a coastline. Merchants can only hit ports, that's why the map isn't balanced. However, as this is the roughly the third time I've said now that DiM is inactive, it's kind of pointless going on about this.

I came here to say that something needs to change to give the Merchants some kind of advantage. The Pirates have an advantage in that they can hit every coastal spot. In a team game where one team has all Merchants the other team has a huge advantage. Clearly, I don't need to tell you (Caff).

But when you say DiM is inactive, does that mean no updates to this map will be forthcoming? And does that mean it will never make it out of Beta?

[iAmCaffeine]

Pirates can hit anything with a coastline. Merchants can only hit ports, that's why the map isn't balanced. However, as this is the roughly the third time I've said now that DiM is inactive, it's kind of pointless going on about this.

I came here to say that something needs to change to give the Merchants some kind of advantage. The Pirates have an advantage in that they can hit every coastal spot. In a team game where one team has all Merchants the other team has a huge advantage. Clearly, I don't need to tell you (Caff).

But when you say DiM is inactive, does that mean no updates to this map will be forthcoming? And does that mean it will never make it out of Beta?

I'm no expert in this department but as far as I'm aware no progress will be made on this map unless DiM comes back or someone gets the files from him to make the necessary adjustments.

However, if zimmah is doing the xml and they're the only changes required (i.e. no graphics) then something could potentially be achieved.

[hyposquasher]

Ok, well then I'll just leave this here as feedback in case it ever gets picked up and finished. I started to read some of the feedback already posted in order to piggy back on someone else's point, but 11 pages is too much to read. Sorry:

I feel that the Merchants need some additional advantage. Currently pirates attack all coastal regions, as we all know. Merchants only attack a smaller percentage of coastal regions. This gives pirates an advantage.

In a fog of war game, anyone who is a pirate or owns at least one pirate has an advantage over anyone who does not, because they can see all coastal regions. They can take coastal treasures and any player who is a merchant or who only holds merchants has no way of seeing, knowing, or attacking the bonus that the other player has picked up. On the other hand, the player who owns a pirate can see and attack everything a merchant does.

I love the concept for this map, but the merchants need to be given something that helps balance out the disadvantage of only being able to see/attack less than 50% of what a pirate can see/attack.

What if there were a handful (5?) of inland regions designated as marketplaces, and merchants could see/attack those. These could be placed inland where pirates can't see them from their ship. I admit, this wouldn't help much of the right part of the map.

Or maybe merchants should be able to attack only ports, but they can see a 1 spot radius around each port. This would at least help narrow it down when a merchant knows a pirate attacked some stuff, but can't see it on the map due to fog of war.

[iAmCaffeine]

I like the marketplace idea, especially for a merchant like Herr Hindeberg who carries a rather hard objective to complete.

[codierose]

map needs to be removed from beta if its dead

[urectum]

PLEASE DONT REMOVE THIS MAP. The concept is brilliant.
I love the whole concept for this map...especially that every one has a different competing objective.
My one complaint is that it is IMPOSSIBLE to find the regions on the map. I would make their names Browser Text Searchable rather than images so i can for once locate where the hell Koroba is.

[waauw]

This map seems like a bad match for round limits... if i join second, I get forced in to being the first to attack the neutrals.. there's no real way to incentivize red to do anything at all. And, well, if you don't try anything, this happens: Game 15126173

Same here. http://www.conquerclub.com/game.php?game=15120612

I don't mind, of course, but I hate going to round limit.

I got the same problem, with the added problem of "trench" "no spoils". Though in round 2 I realised that my opponent too was just waiting so I decided to make a move on the neutrals anyway, now resulting in taking port back and forth. There's nothing fun about this game, it's just waiting for who got the better dices.
Game 15221979

Based on the few games I played, I also see that this is not good for 1v1s in its present form. Basically, the fact that any territory the first player conquers can be taken over by the 2nd player right after that leaves little room for strategy.

I would suggest the following changes:
- pirate ships should only be able to attack treasures directly
- merchant ships should only be able to attack ports directly
- in 1v1s, make sure that one of the players is merchant while the other is pirate

A more complicated (and probably better) option could be to make the ships attack only nearby provinces, instead of the whole coastline. It would definitely make the strategies more complex, but it may require too many changes for the existing map.

I agree with this fully.

[Donelladan]

There's nothing fun about this game, it's just waiting for who got the better dices.

This map is fun when played in multiplayer.
1vs1 2vs2 3vs3 4vs4 games just sucks. It come from the design of the map. You all need to fulfill a different objective to win - and you can only win by taking an objectif. If there is only 2 team no one try to go to objective but go for bonuses.
If there is more than 2 teams this map is actually a lot of fun.
Just do not play it 1vs1.

[IcePack]

great looking map. only problem i have cant make out the whats being said in the legend. will have to wing it for my first games

This. I've played a few on it now and it's extremely difficult to read.

[ManBungalow]

great looking map. only problem i have cant make out the whats being said in the legend. will have to wing it for my first games

This. I've played a few on it now and it's extremely difficult to read.

Is this just on the small map or the large one too?

[iAmCaffeine]

great looking map. only problem i have cant make out the whats being said in the legend. will have to wing it for my first games

This. I've played a few on it now and it's extremely difficult to read.

Is this just on the small map or the large one too?

I would say on both, but this isn't even the main issue on the map.

[IcePack]

great looking map. only problem i have cant make out the whats being said in the legend. will have to wing it for my first games

This. I've played a few on it now and it's extremely difficult to read.

Is this just on the small map or the large one too?

I've found both but large is slightly easier, but depending on screen large isn't always an option.