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Re: Catholics, are they Christian?
Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:37 am
by Japs
Frigidus wrote:Japs wrote:Frigidus wrote:NO! I mean, sure, they believe that Christ is God, but that's not enough! They have to agree with the specifics too! Other group that isn't Christian: Eastern Orthodox.
where did you glean this great piece of information from?
The Bible.
So the bible. The same bible we got from the Catholics says that they are not Christians? THe bible says you must believe in the Lord or Savior and that he has risen from the dead and you will be saved. The Catholics believe all this so they to are saved.
Re: Catholics, are they Christian?
Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:03 am
by PLAYER57832
Zeppflyer wrote:PLAYER57832 wrote:
Roman Catholics even somewhat accept Protestants. That is, you cannot take Communion, but marriages to non-Catholics are recognized, as are non-Roman Catholic Baptisms of children if the child is later brought up to be Roman Catholic (they don't usually have to be re-baptized to be confirmed).
I was baptized Presbyterian and converted to Roman Catholicism in college. Baptism in the Catholic tradition (as it is now defined) says that any baptism "In the name of the Father and the Son, and the Holy Spirit" where water is used is valid. Catholic Tradition has always held that a baptism can be performed by anyone. In the middle ages, when infant mortality was through the roof, midwives often baptized children right after they were born as it was considered absolutely necessary for salvation at the time.
Until recently, they were a lot more persnickety about the exact form of the baptism. For instance, a friend of mine who is in her 50's and who went through a similar experience, was rebaptized at her conversion because at her original one water was merely sprinkled. This is known as a "Conditional Baptism". That is, when there is question as to the propriety of the original baptism, or question as to whether it happened at all, it will be redone 'conditionally' or, 'just to be safe'.
We certainly do accept Protestants as Christians and are happy when they return the favor. (I wouldn't have joined a church that judged my Protestant family to be damned. Heck, my Lutheran father is a better Christian than I'll ever be.) I know that the majority of Christians accept us as fellow believers, but I do think, based on 4 years at a Christian college where people from all parts of the Corpus Christi were represented, that the opposite opinion is held by far more than just the far Fundamentalist fringe. We're working on it.
You mean Texas is part of the US? (jokng, of course).
Seriously, views in the south, in general are more conservative. Even Protestant churches like the Methodists can be fundamentalist in their practices. (I was once told by an adult Sunday school teacher that Hillary Clinton was "Satan" ... I asked him what he thought of a church that had her as a member, he did not even realize she was a Methodist!).
Most of the mainline Protestant churches (Lutheran, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, Methodist, etc.) and even many that are more conservative (Covenant, etc.) offer communion to "any Baptized Christian", and that definitely includes Roman Catholics. Some Roman Catholic priests "look the other way" or don't specifically challenge visitors who come up for communion, but the church itself does not offer communion to non Roman Catholics.
As for the acceptance of Baptism. It varied considerably by parish. I know of 2 children who were actually refused Baptism simply because the person selected as a God parent was not a Roman Catholic and others who were not allowed Roman Catholic Baptism because one parent had not converted, but I don't believe that was ever really true Roman Catholic doctrine.
Anyway, there are a LOT of technicalities. Botton line is that Roman Catholics who accept Christ as their savior (almost 100%) are Christians. The "almost" is just because there are no doubt some who attend church or claim to be Roman Catholic, but don't really believe (same for ANY church!).
Japs wrote:Getting back to an earlier post.... Someone said that Catholics were not the first Christians... Ill give you that. However they are the oldest church we know of right now that still exist and they are the church that all of the protestant churches broke off of. So following logical order it would make sense that if protestant churches have all broken off from the Catholic church and that protestants are Christians then Catholics must be Christians as well.
To make a long story short yes Catholics are Christians.
The Greek Orthodox church is generally considered to predate or be concurrant with the Western, Latin church that became the Roman Catholic Church. There were other churches. I believe the Ethiopian church, for example, dates back to about that time (but am not completely sure how far back).
Two of the main differances were whether the church should be subservient to the Secular laws or vice-versa. Another was the use of icons, that is, figures that represent real people, various symbols. There were more, but I am keeping this brief.
As for the whole Reformation thing... the biggest differance is that Protestants believe we can relate directly to God. Roman Catholics believe in "intermediaries" -- Priests, The Pope, Saints. Also, Protestants don't believe in pennance in the way that Roman Catholics do because we don't believe any Earthly act can obtain salvation, only the grace of God. Again, that is an extreme simplification.
Re: Catholics, are they Christian?
Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:28 am
by TheProwler
PLAYER57832 wrote:Some Roman Catholic priests "look the other way" or don't specifically challenge visitors who come up for communion, but the church itself does not offer communion to non Roman Catholics.
The first time my wife came to a Roman Catholic mass with me, I went up for communion and I just assumed she stayed behind (not being RC). But she actually was right behind me - I didn't know until later.
When she got to the front of the line, I guess it didn't look like she was familiar with the procedure, so the priest asked her "Are you Roman Catholic?" and she said "No." and he said "Then you can't receive communion, but would you like a blessing?" and she said "Yes." and he gave her a blessing and did the little cross thing on her forehead. It was all an innocent mistake.
Are Catholics Christian? To those who are saying "No", could you be specific as to why you think not?
Re: Catholics, are they Christian?
Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:59 am
by PLAYER57832
TheProwler wrote:Are Catholics Christian? To those who are saying "No", could you be specific as to why you think not?
I certainly don't think so and cannot pretend to give all the answers, but many of the reasons I have heard apply to most protestants. They range from they are not born again, do not show the 'gifts' (such as speaking in tongues) or don't show one particular gift (such as immunity to poison).
More generally, Roman Catholics often pray to Saints, call upon Saints for guidance rather than God/Christ. Some people see this as "worshiping other gods" (in some cases there is a legitimate confusion among some Roman Catholics, particularly in South America, which was initially perpetuated by Missionaries as a way to "bring people in" to Christ, but that gets technical and is pretty individual to the person). Similarly, some people see reliance on symbols and "things" (blessed objects, etc.) as a kind of idoltry. Others see the Pope as taking Christ or God's place.
Probably the biggest reason, though goes beyond any particular church. Many people say that you must have " a
personnal relationship with God" and declare that folks such as Protestants and Roman Catholics who may simply be more reserved about their faith but describe it the same way or may describe it differantly do not.
MOST, though, will "qualify" any condemnation by saying that it is really up to God to judge and that people of faith can be found in "any" church.
Re: Catholics, are they Christian?
Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:07 pm
by PLAYER57832
luns101 wrote:Zeppflyer wrote:Is there an actual, organized church of Messianic Judaism? The few that I have met have all been part of one mainstream church or another and maintained their private traditions separately from their public worship.
http://www.iamcs.org/Just got that off of wikipedia...don't know if it actually qualifies under the definition you put forth.
Good link, luns!
This matches what I have been told, that there are various congregations with independent churches, but they are not part of a world or National Organization.
It is worth noting that one of the original debates within Christianity was whether you had to be a Jew before you could be a Christian, but that is off the topic of roman Catholicism.
Re: Catholics, are they Christian?
Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 2:21 pm
by Frigidus
Japs wrote:Frigidus wrote:Japs wrote:Frigidus wrote:NO! I mean, sure, they believe that Christ is God, but that's not enough! They have to agree with the specifics too! Other group that isn't Christian: Eastern Orthodox.
where did you glean this great piece of information from?
The Bible.
So the bible. The same bible we got from the Catholics says that they are not Christians? THe bible says you must believe in the Lord or Savior and that he has risen from the dead and you will be saved. The Catholics believe all this so they to are saved.
No, you're wrong. You're probably going to hell.
Re: Catholics, are they Christian?
Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 2:30 pm
by jonesthecurl
Frigidus wrote:Japs wrote:Frigidus wrote:Japs wrote:Frigidus wrote:NO! I mean, sure, they believe that Christ is God, but that's not enough! They have to agree with the specifics too! Other group that isn't Christian: Eastern Orthodox.
where did you glean this great piece of information from?
The Bible.
So the bible. The same bible we got from the Catholics says that they are not Christians? THe bible says you must believe in the Lord or Savior and that he has risen from the dead and you will be saved. The Catholics believe all this so they to are saved.
No, you're wrong. You're probably going to hell.
Only cos god loves us.
Re: Catholics, are they Christian?
Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 2:37 pm
by PLAYER57832
Frigidus wrote:Japs wrote:Frigidus wrote:Japs wrote:Frigidus wrote:NO! I mean, sure, they believe that Christ is God, but that's not enough! They have to agree with the specifics too! Other group that isn't Christian: Eastern Orthodox.
where did you glean this great piece of information from?
The Bible.
So the bible. The same bible we got from the Catholics says that they are not Christians? THe bible says you must believe in the Lord or Savior and that he has risen from the dead and you will be saved. The Catholics believe all this so they to are saved.
No, you're wrong. You're probably going to hell.
Nice Troll.
Re: Catholics, are they Christian?
Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 4:39 pm
by Japs
Then tell me why I am wrong.
Re: Catholics, are they Christian?
Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 4:47 pm
by Frigidus
Japs wrote:Then tell me why I am wrong.
I don't need any of those fancy
explanations to point out why you're wrong. I know, in my heart, that you're wrong.
Re: Catholics, are they Christian?
Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 5:11 pm
by Neoteny
cackle cackle
Re: Catholics, are they Christian?
Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 5:15 pm
by Timminz
Why can't all you abrahamic fools just unite against a common enemy?
How about witches?
Re: Catholics, are they Christian?
Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 5:16 pm
by Neoteny
They already got fucked over.
Nice job on that one guys.
Re: Catholics, are they Christian?
Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 5:17 pm
by Timminz
Neoteny wrote:They already got fucked over.
Nice job on that one guys.
Once a scapegoat....
Re: Catholics, are they Christian?
Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:26 pm
by Japs
Frigidus wrote:Japs wrote:Then tell me why I am wrong.
I don't need any of those fancy
explanations to point out why you're wrong. I know, in my heart, that you're wrong.
You dont have anything your just a biased person.
Re: Catholics, are they Christian?
Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:25 pm
by Neoteny
lol wut
Re: Catholics, are they Christian?
Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:20 pm
by Frigidus
Japs wrote:Frigidus wrote:Japs wrote:Then tell me why I am wrong.
I don't need any of those fancy
explanations to point out why you're wrong. I know, in my heart, that you're wrong.
You dont have anything your just a biased person.
Re: Catholics, are they Christian?
Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 8:30 pm
by PopeBenXVI
Oh please, is this a serious topic? I'm sure you can guess my position on this thread.
Re: Catholics, are they Christian?
Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 8:32 pm
by jonesthecurl
Threading it through the needle the angels are dancing on?
Re: Catholics, are they Christian?
Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:08 pm
by pimpdave
kagetora wrote:Catholics started the Christian church. If anything, Jehovas, Protestants, Mormons, etc. aren't Christian
Shut up you dirty papist.
The reformation was all about undoing the damage you and your filthy Pope did.
Proddy 4eva!
Re: Catholics, are they Christian?
Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:35 pm
by PLAYER57832
PopeBenXVI wrote:Oh please, is this a serious topic? I'm sure you can guess my position on this thread.
Of course!
Since using the Pope's image would be a sin if you were Catholic, you
obviously are Protestant and don't think Catholics are really Christian ... right?
Re: Catholics, are they Christian?
Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:48 pm
by jonesthecurl
nice one player.
Re: Catholics, are they Christian?
Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 1:36 am
by Frigidus
These Catholic demi-humans just won't give up. You aren't Christian. Period.
Re: Catholics, are they Christian?
Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:52 pm
by PopeBenXVI
PLAYER57832 wrote:PopeBenXVI wrote:Oh please, is this a serious topic? I'm sure you can guess my position on this thread.
Of course!
Since using the Pope's image would be a sin if you were Catholic, you
obviously are Protestant and don't think Catholics are really Christian ... right?
Perhaps you could quote the offical document from the Magisterium that states your claim. I think I missed it. I have however read about burning heretics at one time or another.....now thats some gooooood readin!
Re: Catholics, are they Christian?
Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:25 pm
by PLAYER57832
PopeBenXVI wrote:PLAYER57832 wrote:PopeBenXVI wrote:Oh please, is this a serious topic? I'm sure you can guess my position on this thread.
Of course!
Since using the Pope's image would be a sin if you were Catholic, you
obviously are Protestant and don't think Catholics are really Christian ... right?
Perhaps you could quote the offical document from the Magisterium that states your claim. I think I missed it. I have however read about burning heretics at one time or another.....now thats some gooooood readin!
I have no doubt that I would qualify ...
and I am thankful that both our churches have since at least reached some understanding, if not complete acceptance.