Conquer Club

Degenerate Saint wrote:Lady Stark has not been pleasing me lately. Which is exactly what Ned said before knocking up Jon's wife, apparently.

Lady Stark has been pissing me off since she let Jaime go with her knight. It's like she just expects the Lannisters to be noble about this and turn Sansa and Arya over just because she turned over their son. Personally I think if she turned over Jaime, all that would happen is that the giant woman would get herself outnumbered and killed (Tywin would consider handling it diplomatically but Jeoffrey wouldn't hesitate to order her execution.) She hasn't really done anything to earn any favors from me since then.

I get that she's a mother who's worried about her children. I even get that Robb Stark may not handle the Jaime Lannister situation the best way possible but in this case, she has endangered them more by getting rid of their best bargaining chip.

aage wrote:[spoiler=trespassers will be spoiled]

betiko wrote:

Symmetry wrote:

betiko wrote:Hey guys!

I don't think there is any topic about his great show exclusively. i'd like to discuss it here a bit, but of course this could lead to massive spoilers... Has anyone watched the episode 2 of season 3 yet?

Yup. it was good, not great.

Yup, saw it today and realize I m really addicted... Didn t get my dosis of answers.


Spoiler alert!!!!!!
Who the hell was reed? Looks like Brann can trust these guys.
The Reed kids hook up with Bran, Rickon, Hodor and Osha at Winterfell according to the book, but now they apparently just run into them and everything is fine... Jojen (the guy) sort of becomes Bran's mentor on his visions, also called "green dreams", until Bran gets to someone who can teach him even more, on the other side of the wall.
The tyrell queen... What the hell is she up to seriously? She seems like a hell of a great plotter. For good or bad I wonder!
There is no such thing as good or bad. Look at my signature. The Tyrell queen indeed is quite the plotter, she is very business-like which is why Cersei hates her. Cersei thinks she's a threat to her house because she keeps trying to get Tyrell men into good positions eg. on the Small Council, while Cersei really only wants her own men in those positions so she has control, and thus power.
No daeneris this episode!! How was she going to pay those mercenaries, giving a dragon away?
Yep. But the idiot slaver gives her the soldiers before he leaves, so she just orders her men to kill him and takes the dragons back. Ya, she's a tough one.
Theon: is he tortured by Robb s guys? I don t remember how he ended there.
Theon is captured by the Ramsay, the Bastard of Bolton. He's the guy the bald fellow with Robb keeps talking about. He isn't a very nice person. Personally I think that he is the one who told Theon he was going to set him free. Ramsay does this because he likes to... play... with his victims.
The hound: I forgot what happened with him last.. Didn't he leave jeoffrey after the war for being such a pussy? This guy isn't such a big asshole, but he gives Aryen away at the end of the episode..
The Hound is NOT a pussy. He simply doesn't really care for honour, because supposedly only Knights have honour, and Knights are all a bunch of assholes according to Sandor Clegane. This is mostly because his brother, The Mountain, is also a knight but not a very honourable one. As you may recall from the first season, when Sandor (Hound) and Gregor (Mountain) were kids, Gregor slammed his head into a bed of burning coals that melted half his face away. That is why he is very afraid of fire, and that is why he fled the battle of Blackwater Bay. The whole fucking place was ablaze, of course he left.
Kathlyn: is she going to plot against Robb? Looks like her knight and the lanister guy got caught by Robb s barons.. But they probably will escape on the next episode I bet.. I m sure that their relationship will evolve in a friendly way.
No, she is not plotting against Robb. He is the only child she has left, and she'll die before she'd betray him or see him hurt. Ironically that is what happens at the end of the season during the event called The Red Wedding, which you may have heard about. Basically all Stark leaders get slaughtered by House Frey, who struck up a deal with Tywin Lannister.

[/spoiler]

Women may be prominent but I like strong women. It makes them even more sexy, even though honestly I think Daenerys isn't very good-looking.

It's the fact that they dyed her hair platinum blonde but left the dark brown eye brows.

Yeah Lady Stark goes downhill after the first book. I actually liked her in the beginning, but then once her husband dies and she thinks 2 of her sons die its just "wah wah wah, why is this happening to me?" Sheesh! women, am I right?

But seriously be thankful that in the show you don't have to read page after page of self pity inner dialogue.

Also her name is Brienne. The Giant woman that is. Brienne of Tarth.

aage wrote: even though honestly I think Daenerys isn't very good-looking.

Now you're just being silly.

strike wolf wrote:Lady Stark has been pissing me off since she let Jaime go with her knight. It's like she just expects the Lannisters to be noble about this and turn Sansa and Arya over just because she turned over their son. Personally I think if she turned over Jaime, all that would happen is that the giant woman would get herself outnumbered and killed (Tywin would consider handling it diplomatically but Jeoffrey wouldn't hesitate to order her execution.) She hasn't really done anything to earn any favors from me since then.

Just to quibble here - an official envoy of the King (Littlefinger) had proposed this arrangement, wherein the two Stark girls would be returned to their mother(Cat doesn't know that nobody knows where Arya is, and that the Lannisters are feverishly trying to find her) in exchange for the return of the Kingslayer. In "a show of good faith," he had brought back Ned Stark's remains. There are at least three reasons Cat should think that the Lannisters will follow through on the bargain. Firstly, the Lannisters have no use for the daughters of "traitors" beyond using them as hostages, and sending them home will earn them points in the North, which they will need to placate after the rebellion is put down. Secondly, this deal absurdly benefits the Lannisters. Jaime is the heir to the Lannister name, and is valuable as both a political and military asset. Arya might be a badass and Sansa might be very pretty, but that's all they are. And finally, and perhaps most importantly, a Lannister always pays his debts.

daenerys not good looking??? nahhhh she's extra hot!!
sansa pretty??? nahhh. not ugly but average. no effect on me.

ok one thing about this thread: let's keep it to the series in terms of spoiling! as long as a new episode is out, we can all talk about it, people late in the show showing up here, too bad for them but talking about the books can spoil everything!

aage: i never said the hound was a pussy, I was saying that jeoffrey was.

Jon Snow is kind of the main character, I don't know if it's because the actor is good or because it's like that in the book too. My guess is that his mother is daenery's mother or something like that. I don't remember which rebelion ned and robert were fighting at the time (targarians??) if so my theory doesn't make any sense. But I'm pretty sure Jon has a bad ass name on his mother side.

Hey what happened to Arya's sword (the one Jon gave her) in the taer and woods scene she has a much thicker one. is it lost?

betiko wrote:Jon Snow is kind of the main character, I don't know if it's because the actor is good or because it's like that in the book too. My guess is that his mother is daenery's mother or something like that. I don't remember which rebelion ned and robert were fighting at the time (targarians??) if so my theory doesn't make any sense. But I'm pretty sure Jon has a bad ass name on his mother side.

Jon is a huge character in the books and I'm glad to see he's getting a lot of play in the show as well. He was one of my two favorite characters in the books, and is very bad ass.

His parentage has not yet been declared in the books, but there is one main theory that is fairly widely accepted by the readers:

[spoiler=Only if you want to read the theory, it is not actually stated in the books]The going theory is that Jon Snow is the son of Lyanna Stark (Eddard "Ned" Stark's sister and the "love" of Robert Baratheon) and Rhaegar Targaryen (Daenerys' oldest brother and heir to the throne who was killed in Robert's rebellion).

Before the rebellion Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna for unknown reasons, though various characters in the book believe they were in love. This was the main cause of the rebellion against the Targaryens. In Book 1, Eddard has a few flashbacks that weren't in the shows. In these flashbacks he is seen promising to keep a secret to his sister as she was dying.

This secret is believed to be that Ned will claim Jon as his bastard instead of letting it be known Jon is the son of a Targaryen. If Jon's lineage were to be known, he would have immediately been killed as were all other Targaryens (well, they thought they killed all remaining Targaryens...).[/spoiler]

betiko wrote:daenerys not good looking??? nahhhh she's extra hot!!
sansa pretty??? nahhh. not ugly but average. no effect on me.

ok one thing about this thread: let's keep it to the series in terms of spoiling! as long as a new episode is out, we can all talk about it, people late in the show showing up here, too bad for them but talking about the books can spoil everything!

aage: i never said the hound was a pussy, I was saying that jeoffrey was.

Jon Snow is kind of the main character, I don't know if it's because the actor is good or because it's like that in the book too. My guess is that his mother is daenery's mother or something like that. I don't remember which rebelion ned and robert were fighting at the time (targarians??) if so my theory doesn't make any sense. But I'm pretty sure Jon has a bad ass name on his mother side.

Hey what happened to Arya's sword (the one Jon gave her) in the taer and woods scene she has a much thicker one. is it lost?

It was against the Targeryens.

Must...resist...clicking.

The Targaryeon lineage theory holds water, though...it's definitely feasible. Hadn't even considered that.

It's not like copulation between a soldier from an invading force and a besieged city is unprecedented or anything.

Do the books go more into how she died? Dont need details because the show makes it sound like she just was killed.

strike wolf wrote:Do the books go more into how she died? Dont need details because the show makes it sound like she just was killed.

Who are you referring to?

betiko wrote:Hey what happened to Arya's sword (the one Jon gave her) in the taer and woods scene she has a much thicker one. is it lost?

When Arya was captured last season and brought to Harrenhal it was confiscated from her.

lol, a friend posted this on facebook a bit before season 3 started, and it kind of felt like it meant jon was somehow targaryan

spurgistan wrote:

strike wolf wrote:Lady Stark has been pissing me off since she let Jaime go with her knight. It's like she just expects the Lannisters to be noble about this and turn Sansa and Arya over just because she turned over their son. Personally I think if she turned over Jaime, all that would happen is that the giant woman would get herself outnumbered and killed (Tywin would consider handling it diplomatically but Jeoffrey wouldn't hesitate to order her execution.) She hasn't really done anything to earn any favors from me since then.

Just to quibble here - an official envoy of the King (Littlefinger) had proposed this arrangement, wherein the two Stark girls would be returned to their mother(Cat doesn't know that nobody knows where Arya is, and that the Lannisters are feverishly trying to find her) in exchange for the return of the Kingslayer. In "a show of good faith," he had brought back Ned Stark's remains. There are at least three reasons Cat should think that the Lannisters will follow through on the bargain. Firstly, the Lannisters have no use for the daughters of "traitors" beyond using them as hostages, and sending them home will earn them points in the North, which they will need to placate after the rebellion is put down. Secondly, this deal absurdly benefits the Lannisters. Jaime is the heir to the Lannister name, and is valuable as both a political and military asset. Arya might be a badass and Sansa might be very pretty, but that's all they are. And finally, and perhaps most importantly, a Lannister always pays his debts.

This pretty much sums it up nicely. Also why House Lannister is way cooler than House Stark.

-TG

TA1LGUNN3R wrote:

spurgistan wrote:

strike wolf wrote:Lady Stark has been pissing me off since she let Jaime go with her knight. It's like she just expects the Lannisters to be noble about this and turn Sansa and Arya over just because she turned over their son. Personally I think if she turned over Jaime, all that would happen is that the giant woman would get herself outnumbered and killed (Tywin would consider handling it diplomatically but Jeoffrey wouldn't hesitate to order her execution.) She hasn't really done anything to earn any favors from me since then.

Just to quibble here - an official envoy of the King (Littlefinger) had proposed this arrangement, wherein the two Stark girls would be returned to their mother(Cat doesn't know that nobody knows where Arya is, and that the Lannisters are feverishly trying to find her) in exchange for the return of the Kingslayer. In "a show of good faith," he had brought back Ned Stark's remains. There are at least three reasons Cat should think that the Lannisters will follow through on the bargain. Firstly, the Lannisters have no use for the daughters of "traitors" beyond using them as hostages, and sending them home will earn them points in the North, which they will need to placate after the rebellion is put down. Secondly, this deal absurdly benefits the Lannisters. Jaime is the heir to the Lannister name, and is valuable as both a political and military asset. Arya might be a badass and Sansa might be very pretty, but that's all they are. And finally, and perhaps most importantly, a Lannister always pays his debts.

This pretty much sums it up nicely. Also why House Lannister is way cooler than House Stark.

-TG

by the way, do you guys think tywin really had no idea that arya was actually the stark girl when he had her as a servant? He's smart, but I think he had actually never saw her before... nevertheless, he pretty much guessed she was a bit too educated to be just a carpenter's daughter (or whatever lie she came up with).
And littlefinger with sansa...hum! who knows what littlefinger has planned there!

To be even more technical, Jaime isn't the heir, as the most recent episode has Tyrion point out.

betiko wrote:daenerys not good looking??? nahhhh she's extra hot!!
sansa pretty??? nahhh. not ugly but average. no effect on me.

Sansa is pretty good-looking for someone who's supposed to be 13 or something.

Jon Snow is kind of the main character, I don't know if it's because the actor is good or because it's like that in the book too. My guess is that his mother is daenery's mother or something like that. I don't remember which rebelion ned and robert were fighting at the time (targarians??) if so my theory doesn't make any sense. But I'm pretty sure Jon has a bad ass name on his mother side.

I would dispute that there is a main character, but he's a pretty big deal yeah. Not sure about the mother, because nobody really knows, but I doubt you are right... Jon Snow was born during Robert's Rebellion against the Mad King, the husband of Rhaella Targaryen. If they had managed to capture Rhaella, Daenerys would never have been born.

Hey what happened to Arya's sword (the one Jon gave her) in the taer and woods scene she has a much thicker one. is it lost?

I believe The Tickler has it, or Raff. One of those. They take it form her when they first capture her and take her to Harrenhall.

Symmetry wrote:To be even more technical, Jaime isn't the heir, as the most recent episode has Tyrion point out.

I don't really get this. Basically, Jaime is the kingslayer, he killed the guy he was supposed to protect and yet he is supposed to be in allegiance to some kind of oath which makes him unable to inherit his father's titles?

by the way; there is something I didn't quite understand, how did robert baratheon get the power, because it's mainly the lanisters who defeated the mad king? does tywin know about jaime and cersei, and that cersei's kids are all 100% lanisters?

betiko wrote:

Symmetry wrote:To be even more technical, Jaime isn't the heir, as the most recent episode has Tyrion point out.

I don't really get this. Basically, Jaime is the king slayer, he killed the guy he was supposed to protect and yet he is supposed to be in allegiance to some kind of oath which makes him unable to inherit his father's titles?

The hypocrisy of his position, as well as the genuine virtue behind it makes him an interesting character.

betiko wrote:

Symmetry wrote:To be even more technical, Jaime isn't the heir, as the most recent episode has Tyrion point out.

I don't really get this. Basically, Jaime is the king slayer, he killed the guy he was supposed to protect and yet he is supposed to be in allegiance to some kind of oath which makes him unable to inherit his father's titles?

Yeah, that's part of the deal whenever someone joins the Kingsguard.

betiko wrote:

Symmetry wrote:To be even more technical, Jaime isn't the heir, as the most recent episode has Tyrion point out.

I don't really get this. Basically, Jaime is the kingslayer, he killed the guy he was supposed to protect and yet he is supposed to be in allegiance to some kind of oath which makes him unable to inherit his father's titles?

by the way; there is something I didn't quite understand, how did robert baratheon get the power, because it's mainly the lanisters who defeated the mad king? does tywin know about jaime and cersei, and that cersei's kids are all 100% lanisters?

As far as I can tell with the Targaryens out of the picture, the three biggest or most influential houses in the kingdom were Stark, Lannister and Baratheon. I believe Robert put his name up for king and Ned Stark backed his claim. With the two most influential houses siding for Robert, Tywin probably made a deal about supporting him in exchange for marrying his daughter. Someone who's read the books can probably more accurately detail that.

Oh and i was asking if the books told more about how Lyanna Stark died.

Yes Little Finger is an official envoy, but I don't recall the Lannisters actually saying that they would exchange (it was clear that Tywin wanted to exchange something for Jaime but there was no agreement ever made between the two sides. You need to make sure that both sides understand the terms of an agreement before giving off your best bargaining chip). It should have been done with both sides agreeing to meet (via Envoys if necessary) with someone more trustworthy than Little Finger who hasn't proven to be much more trustworthy than the least trustworthy person in the show. I furthermore wouldn't trust Jeoffrey the Brat King to agree to any deal. Tywin's honorable enough in the Lannisters always pay their debts way but Jeffrey...probably couldn't care less about that. I mean we are talking about the boy who ignored all warnings to spare Ned Stark and had his head chopped off for treason.

strike wolf wrote:Oh and i was asking if the books told more about how Lyanna Stark died.

Nope. Only that Ned found her dying.

strike wolf wrote:As far as I can tell with the Targaryens out of the picture, the three biggest or most influential houses in the kingdom were Stark, Lannister and Baratheon. I believe Robert put his name up for king and Ned Stark backed his claim. With the two most influential houses siding for Robert, Tywin probably made a deal about supporting him in exchange for marrying his daughter. Someone who's read the books can probably more accurately detail that.

This is more or less accurate in terms of what happened socially. What put Robert over the top to be king, politically, was that he had the best "claim" on the throne as he was the grandson of a Targaryen. So they considered him to have the greatest claim of anyone left alive after the rebellion.

betiko wrote:by the way; there is something I didn't quite understand, how did robert baratheon get the power, because it's mainly the lanisters who defeated the mad king?

See above for how Robert became king. But I wanted to answer to your comment on the Lannisters:

The rebellion was lead by Robert and his two main "lieutenants" were Ned Stark and John Arryn. You might not know/remember who John is, but he is the one who is killed in the very beginning of the show (former Hand of Robert) for finding out who Joffrey's real father is, and his death drives Robert to go ask Ned to be his new hand. His wife is the one who was seen breastfeeding the older child in Season 1 (she kinda went crazy after he died, obviously). They control a considerable part of Westeros (the East) and have not gotten involved with the current wars nor committed to any of the kings.

The Lannisters were involved in the rebellion, but not heavily. Tywin was actually the hand of the mad-King Aerys and his son, Jaime, was in the Kingsguard. To keep the Lannisters out of the war, Aerys forbade Jaime from going out and fighting against the rebellion and kept him as his personal guard. Yes this ended up costing him his life, but it also kept Tywin from fully committing to the rebellion until the end in order to keep his son safe.

Robert was the one who killed Rhaegar (Aerys' son and the next in line to the throne) that, more or less, sealed the victory for the Baratheon/Stark/Arryn armies.

After Rhaegar was killed, the Lannisters now entered the rebellion at the very end. Tywin, who was supposed to be loyal to Aerys, marched his entire army to Kings Landing and asked Aerys to let him in "so he could help protect the city". Once his army was inside the gates, they turned on the Targaryens, Jaime killed Aerys, and the war was over.

The Lannisters were involved in the rebellion, but not heavily. Tywin was actually the hand of the mad-King Aerys and his son, Jaime, was in the Kingsguard. To keep the Lannisters out of the war, Aerys forbade Jaime from going out and fighting against the rebellion and kept him as his personal guard. Yes this ended up costing him his life, but it also kept Tywin from fully committing to the rebellion until the end in order to keep his son safe.

This.

The Lannisters did two things in the rebellion. They coaxed the Targaryens into opening the gates for them, allowing them to more easily capture King's Landing, and Jaime killed Aerys.

The most important battle in the entire rebellion was the Battle of the Trident, in which the Lannisters were barely involved. Basically they had to sit back and watch with their hands tied both ways.

Maybe not the most reliable source, but A Wiki of Ice and Fire:

Lord Tywin Lannister, who had remained neutral until the Battle of the Trident, marched to the gates of King's Landing with a force of 12,000 men, claiming loyalty to King Aerys II and asking to be let in. It was Grand Maester Pycelle who convinced the Mad King to open his gates to the Lannisters, which was done over the objections of his spymaster Varys. Pycelle felt the realm needed a new king after Rhaegar's death, and hoped it would have been Tywin.[1][2] The Lannister forces then began to sack the city in Robert's name.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Sack_of_King%27s_Landing

That is why Robert is king.

Yes Little Finger is an official envoy, but I don't recall the Lannisters actually saying that they would exchange (it was clear that Tywin wanted to exchange something for Jaime but there was no agreement ever made between the two sides. You need to make sure that both sides understand the terms of an agreement before giving off your best bargaining chip). It should have been done with both sides agreeing to meet (via Envoys if necessary) with someone more trustworthy than Little Finger who hasn't proven to be much more trustworthy than the least trustworthy person in the show. I furthermore wouldn't trust Jeoffrey the Brat King to agree to any deal. Tywin's honorable enough in the Lannisters always pay their debts way but Jeffrey...probably couldn't care less about that. I mean we are talking about the boy who ignored all warnings to spare Ned Stark and had his head chopped off for treason.

First of all, I believe that at least Cersei is under the impression that Lord Baelish is loyal to her, certainly after that ridiculous display of power with those guards in the garden and the promise of reward, presuming Littlefinger is interested in that. You will find that everyone has a personal agenda, though, including Littlefinger. Secondly, it's not Jeoffrey whom Catlyn trusts. It's Tyrion.

But Jeoffrey is still King and killing Ned Stark alone is proof that he doesn't listen to his advisors and can't be trusted. There was no way a deal involving releasing Sansa, the King's bride, wasn't going to go without getting Jeoffrey involved.It is true though that out of all the Lannisters, Tyrion has so far appeared to be the most trustworthy. Tywin isn't really trustworthy but he did show that he didn't care for out right war.

The show's made it very clear that everyone has their own agenda.

strike wolf wrote:But Jeoffrey is still King and killing Ned Stark alone is proof that he doesn't listen to his advisors and can't be trusted. There was no way a deal involving releasing Sansa, the King's bride, wasn't going to go without getting Jeoffrey involved.It is true though that out of all the Lannisters, Tyrion has so far appeared to be the most trustworthy. Tywin isn't really trustworthy but he did show that he didn't care for out right war.

Tywin can be trusted to be true to his word, as long as he has reason to. Jeoffrey has little influence over things that actually matter. He wasn't even capable of defending his own city, Tyrion was. He spends his days beating up women for his pleasure and shooting crossbows... fine. Meanwhile the Queen sits on the small council and makes the actual decisions, especially since most of its members are highly replaceable (in her eyes, anyway). Tyrion was acting hand when Catlyn sent Brienne and Jaime on their way, and he is better at playing the Game than Cersei is when it comes to power. Even if Cersei were to oppose trading the hostages, the entire council would disagree with her. As for the matter of Jeoffrey's marriage, you have seen how easily Sansa was set aside because she was the daughter of a traitor. The only reason Sansa was still held as future bride was to reconcile the North when Robb's rebellion would be crushed. However, the heir to everything that is Lannister, a Kingsguard and arguably the most formidable swordsman in the seven kingdoms in exchange for a girl... you really seem to miss how profitable this exchange is for the Lannisters. Yes, they could be dishonourable in this deal, but they have no reason to and they have a reputation to hold high.

Also, you seem to assume that Brienne would just give Jaime up and expect Arya and Sansa would just be given to her. She isn't stupid, nor guided by emotion like Catlyn. She would rather put a blade to Jaime's head than trust a Lannister.

You guys are assuming Lannisters have honor. These are the same people who betrayed the king they were allied with, killed the king they were sworn to protect, fathered children with each other behind the back of the new king, and more that just isn't coming to memory right now. Of course the trade benefits the Lannisters. But with Cat sending Jaime off, she gave up the Stark's only bargaining chip based off trusting the most untrustworthy family in the seven kingdoms.

Also, the entire council would side with whatever Joffrey wanted to do out of fear for his temper. And do you really think he'd just give up Sansa once Jaime was delivered to King's Landing?

I've read the books so if anyone here hasn't you might want to foe me to avoid reading some serious spoilers hehe. It's a great series. Just posting here right now to get this on my "View your posts" list.