Conquer Club

btownmeggy wrote:

Kill_Schmitty wrote:I want to ask the people who appose capital punishment this: If a man walked into your house and chopped up one of your loved one (spouse, parent, kid etc.) would you not want the same fate for him?

Do you seriously think people who oppose capital punishment have never contemplated such a scenario?

no i believe they have i just want to know what they thought about it

Man, what a topical debate!

I'm not even sure where I stand on this.

On the one hand, I think that any serious offender proven guilty of murder should be strung up by their proverbials.

On the other hand, I feel that compassion should play a part when considering a suitable punishment for guilty serious offenders.

Offenders may have shown no compassion or mercy to their victims. If we show none in their sentencing, does that make us just as bad?

Then I think, if any of my kids were victims... I hate to imagine what I would do *shudder*... In the heat, rage and fury of the aftermath, I'd probably do worse to the offender which would make me just like him.

I just don't know... and I hope I never have to find out

Kill_Schmitty wrote:

btownmeggy wrote:

Kill_Schmitty wrote:I want to ask the people who appose capital punishment this: If a man walked into your house and chopped up one of your loved one (spouse, parent, kid etc.) would you not want the same fate for him?

Do you seriously think people who oppose capital punishment have never contemplated such a scenario?

no i believe they have i just want to know what they thought about it

This is one of the easiest arguments to respond to. What your proposing is not capital punishment based on what's best for society (to prevent further crime by the same offender, to act as a deterrent to potential offenders, to minimize tax money spent on prisons--none of which I find very convincing, btw), but rather your scenario is about capital punishment for vengeance's sake. "You made my beloved suffer. You made me suffer. Now you should suffer." This accomplishes nothing. What sort of sicko is emotionally appeased by the intentional murder of another human being? Do you seriously think that would make it all better, if your loved one was the one murdered by the offender?

Kill_Schmitty wrote:

btownmeggy wrote:

Kill_Schmitty wrote:I want to ask the people who appose capital punishment this: If a man walked into your house and chopped up one of your loved one (spouse, parent, kid etc.) would you not want the same fate for him?

Do you seriously think people who oppose capital punishment have never contemplated such a scenario?

no i believe they have i just want to know what they thought about it

I believe we should not thrive to make ourselves as bad as the person who did that.

Two wrongs dont make a right.

reverend_kyle wrote:I believe we should not thrive to make ourselves as bad as the person who did that.

Two wrongs dont make a right.

Who says capital punishment is wrong? I'd rather have my tax money wasted in social security than keeping child raping murderers alive and healthy. Seriously, how much fucken money would be saved if we just killed death row?

reverend_kyle wrote:I believe we should not thrive to make ourselves as bad as the person who did that.

Two wrongs dont make a right.

Except putting to death someone who heinously takes the innocent life of another human being is not wrong, it's justice. You're putting almost all of your scrutiny on the state instead of on the person who unjustly murdered someone else.

I'll ask this again, if capital punishment is not the correct penalty for those who take innocent life from another human being, then what is the correct punishment?

beezer wrote:Except putting to death someone who heinously takes the innocent life of another human being is not wrong, it's justice.

What is justice? Who created it? Who defines it? What is its purpose?

I have always wondered how killing is viewed as wrong on one hand and accepted on the other? Either killing is wrong or its not. The Bible says, "Thou shall not kill" not going on to say, "unless you are killing a killer". WWJD? Well, I can't see Him condemning anyone to death.


I remember in 9th grade my English teacher asked the class what we thought of the death penalty. I raised my hand and said, "Killing is killing..... how do you kill someone for doing that very same thing?"

To the overpopulation crowd...are you serious? So life depends on the population? Where does it end? The elderly? The handicap? We will soon lose over 2 Billion people. (see Revelation) Will that be low enough a number to allow people to live?

jay_a2j wrote:I have always wondered how killing is viewed as wrong on one hand and accepted on the other? Either killing is wrong or its not. The Bible says, "Thou shall not kill" not going on to say, "unless you are killing a killer". WWJD? Well, I can't see Him condemning anyone to death.


I remember in 9th grade my English teacher asked the class what we thought of the death penalty. I raised my hand and said, "Killing is killing..... how do you kill someone for doing that very same thing?"

To the overpopulation crowd...are you serious? So life depends on the population? Where does it end? The elderly? The handicap? We will soon lose over 2 Billion people. (see Revelation) Will that be low enough a number to allow people to live?

Jay, another of those bizarre times where we totally agree!, besides that "(see Revelation)" bit and a few other inconsequentials.

Without death penalty, many violent offenders, especially gang members, would face no real deterant. My Uncle, a prosecuter in San Diego County said this to me about Capitol punishment "Our justice system is geared toward punishing middle class offenders, not hardened gang members, which are the real problem. In jail, they get all they ever want. Free meals and shelter, as well as a leadership role in the community"

And Jay, if you believe all killing is wrong, than surely you must believe that war is sinful and wrong.

jay_a2j wrote:
I remember in 9th grade my English teacher asked the class what we thought of the death penalty. I raised my hand and said, "Killing is killing..... how do you kill someone for doing that very same thing?"

Well said. Especially for a school boy.

I'd like to expand on my original comment. I am far from someone who believes that killing a killer is justified. What I believe is that someone who has killed in the past and would probably kill again if given the chance should be killed because it is preventing the possibility of further death. Someone who kills a person for a specific reason should not be sent to death row unless their is a good chance that they will kill again.

People like BTK and other serial killers should be given the death penalty because I'd rather see them killed then have them somehow escape and kill several more people before police are able to recapture them. However, anything short of this should not be given the death penalty.

btownmeggy wrote:

beezer wrote:Except putting to death someone who heinously takes the innocent life of another human being is not wrong, it's justice.

What is justice? Who created it? Who defines it? What is its purpose?

You probably already know by now due to my other posts that I am a Christian. So from a Christian worldview God sets the standard of justice.

1. Human life was created in the image of God so it is considered precious.

2. Those that unjustly take the life of another human being are to be put to death themselves. Genesis 9:5-6 says, "whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man.

3. God has instituted government as the means for justice to be administered.

4. The purpose of capital punishment is to: (a) prevent the further shedding of innocent life by that same offender, (b) pay the ultimate price for for committing the ultimate sin, and (c) act as a deterrant for all those who would contemplate committing the same abhorrant act against another human being.

Now that I have answered your questions, would you please answer mine?
If capital punishment is not the correct penalty for those who take innocent life from another human being, then what is the correct punishment?

jay_a2j wrote:I have always wondered how killing is viewed as wrong on one hand and accepted on the other? Either killing is wrong or its not. The Bible says, "Thou shall not kill" not going on to say, "unless you are killing a killer". WWJD? Well, I can't see Him condemning anyone to death.


I remember in 9th grade my English teacher asked the class what we thought of the death penalty. I raised my hand and said, "Killing is killing..... how do you kill someone for doing that very same thing?"

Sorry Jay, that is not what the Bible says. It specifically says "Thou shalt not murder". Murder is the taking of innocent life of someone who didn't deserve to die. Killing is the taking of life that deserved it. There were many times that God commanded the Israelites to kill other people because they were practicing such wicked things as bestiality & sacrificing their own children to idols.

beezer wrote:
Now that I have answered your questions, would you please answer mine?
If capital punishment is not the correct penalty for those who take innocent life from another human being, then what is the correct punishment?

Rehabilitation.

beezer wrote:If capital punishment is not the correct penalty for those who take innocent life from another human being, then what is the correct punishment?

Apparently it is keeping them alive and safe.

Justice is not served when the convict is just sitting in a cell all his life. Unless they are being forced to work and boost our economy by being a nonprofit workforce, then I see no point in their life.

flashleg8 wrote:

beezer wrote:
Now that I have answered your questions, would you please answer mine?
If capital punishment is not the correct penalty for those who take innocent life from another human being, then what is the correct punishment?

Rehabilitation.

How would they be rehabilitated?

beezer wrote:

btownmeggy wrote:

beezer wrote:Except putting to death someone who heinously takes the innocent life of another human being is not wrong, it's justice.

What is justice? Who created it? Who defines it? What is its purpose?

You probably already know by now due to my other posts that I am a Christian. So from a Christian worldview God sets the standard of justice.

1. Human life was created in the image of God so it is considered precious.

2. Those that unjustly take the life of another human being are to be put to death themselves. Genesis 9:5-6 says, "whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man.

3. God has instituted government as the means for justice to be administered.

4. The purpose of capital punishment is to: (a) prevent the further shedding of innocent life by that same offender, (b) pay the ultimate price for for committing the ultimate sin, and (c) act as a deterrant for all those who would contemplate committing the same abhorrant act against another human being.

Now that I have answered your questions, would you please answer mine?
If capital punishment is not the correct penalty for those who take innocent life from another human being, then what is the correct punishment?

The OT also says "eye for an eye and tooth for tooth" whereas Jesus tells us to "turn the other cheek".

We are to follow the laws of Government but no law is above God's laws. (the government has abortion legal...so is it then "right" in God's eyes?)

Depending on the individual? Life without parole for most hainess crimes.

flashleg8 wrote:

beezer wrote:
Now that I have answered your questions, would you please answer mine?
If capital punishment is not the correct penalty for those who take innocent life from another human being, then what is the correct punishment?

Rehabilitation.

You live in a fantasy land. Yeah, let's rehabilitate Ted Bundy, Adolph Hitler, Jim Jones, and Pol Pot.

luns101 wrote:
How would they be rehabilitated?

Tax money

jay_a2j wrote:

beezer wrote:

btownmeggy wrote:

beezer wrote:Except putting to death someone who heinously takes the innocent life of another human being is not wrong, it's justice.

What is justice? Who created it? Who defines it? What is its purpose?

You probably already know by now due to my other posts that I am a Christian. So from a Christian worldview God sets the standard of justice.

1. Human life was created in the image of God so it is considered precious.

2. Those that unjustly take the life of another human being are to be put to death themselves. Genesis 9:5-6 says, "whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man.

3. God has instituted government as the means for justice to be administered.

4. The purpose of capital punishment is to: (a) prevent the further shedding of innocent life by that same offender, (b) pay the ultimate price for for committing the ultimate sin, and (c) act as a deterrant for all those who would contemplate committing the same abhorrant act against another human being.

Now that I have answered your questions, would you please answer mine?
If capital punishment is not the correct penalty for those who take innocent life from another human being, then what is the correct punishment?

The OT also says "eye for and I and tooth for tooth" whereas Jesus tells us to "turn the other cheek".

We are to follow the laws of Government but no law is above God's laws. (the government has abortion legal...so is it then "right" in God's eyes?)

Depending on the individual? Life without parole for most hainess crimes.

please respond to the last line of my previous post Jay

beezer wrote:

btownmeggy wrote:

beezer wrote:Except putting to death someone who heinously takes the innocent life of another human being is not wrong, it's justice.

What is justice? Who created it? Who defines it? What is its purpose?

You probably already know by now due to my other posts that I am a Christian. So from a Christian worldview God sets the standard of justice.

1. Human life was created in the image of God so it is considered precious.

2. Those that unjustly take the life of another human being are to be put to death themselves. Genesis 9:5-6 says, "whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man.

3. God has instituted government as the means for justice to be administered.

4. The purpose of capital punishment is to: (a) prevent the further shedding of innocent life by that same offender, (b) pay the ultimate price for for committing the ultimate sin, and (c) act as a deterrant for all those who would contemplate committing the same abhorrant act against another human being.

Now that I have answered your questions, would you please answer mine?
If capital punishment is not the correct penalty for those who take innocent life from another human being, then what is the correct punishment?

Ooh, so this is one of the issues in which you're supposed to believe the Old Testament, not the New Testament. Sorry, it's hard for me to keep it straight when the Old Testament is right and when the New Testament is.

My answer: I'm not sure there is an appropriate "penalty". I just don't know. While much evidences demonstrates that the presence or lack of the death penalty has no effect on murder rates, I do think that the possibility of imprisonment seems to deter people from committing many crimes, though usually not those caused by passion or an apparent necessity. I definitely don't think that there should be no repercussions for people who commit the sort of crimes that harm other people. Reciprocal MURDER is not the answer, for the moral and practical reasons that are being brought up repeatedly in this thread.

luns101 wrote:

flashleg8 wrote:

beezer wrote:
Now that I have answered your questions, would you please answer mine?
If capital punishment is not the correct penalty for those who take innocent life from another human being, then what is the correct punishment?

Rehabilitation.

How would they be rehabilitated?

Ordinary people do not kill. We need to ask who is doing the killings and why?

Killings are usually could be carried out by people who have a mental problem - whether a temporary moment of insanity/rage, something from their upbringing/earlier life, or from a mental illness. All these could be treated with psychiatry, whether counselling or prescribing medicine.

Or are the killers doing this because they are in someway anti-social and have no link to normal society? In which case we should attempt to show them the errors of their actions and reintegrate them with our community through a program of re-education.

Its strange but refreshing to agree with jay for once.

DIRESTRAITS wrote:If capital punishment is not the correct penalty for those who take innocent life from another human being, then what is the correct punishment?

Depending on the individual? Life without parole for most hainess crimes.[/quote]
please respond to the last line of my previous post Jay[/quote]


I did.